Riot is unable to decide what role Kog'Maw fills

NodirjonSattarov··9 votes·1,576 views

Alright, before I get my hands dirty I have to agree that pre 6.19 Kog'Maw was very powerful. OP? Perhaps if the enemy Zed couldn't assassinate him or wasn't one shot by Caitlyn's ridiculous trap/snare combo (which I think is absolute bullshit). Heres the thing though, in a meta full of ADCs that build like assassins (MF, Lucian, Jhin, Draven etc.) Kog was the only one that stood a chance at retaliating. These AADCs built nothing but armor pen and could kill Kog in 2 shots if kog was out of place or was simply bombarded with an MF ult. OP? Only if you let him. So they reverted him, damn.

Reverted Kog got attack speed passive on Q, the rest stayed the same. W's main power source was removed but range was increased early on. E and R remained the same. Since Kog doesn't build rage blade anymore, everyone decided to return to the old build. Triforce was different back then. Zeal was used instead of Stringer. Critical chance, MS all good on Kog because it would help him a bit more when building infinity edge. The problem with Stringer (on kog) is that he doesn't need CDR as an ADC. On top of that, if you have lots of CDR that means you'll be using lots of abilities. The problem is that Kog's abilities (though kind of strong) are extremely mana costly. Q costs 40 mana on an 8 second cooldown. W is 40 mana on a 9 second cooldown. E is 80 mana on a 12 second cooldown. R and repetitive uses of R are 50 mana while cooldown is simply the cast time (infinite as long as you have infinite mana). Now that the cost and cooldowns have been established, Kog Maw's mana pool is greater compared to most ADCs BUT with the cost of each spells in which you have to weave auto attacks in between to trade or in team fights is so little that its laughable.

Suppose you get ganked at level 6, you have sheen, and all your cooldowns are up. Kog'Maw has 730 mana at this point. In order to kite back/trade you "weave" your abilities and autos together to reflect damage. Q, AA, W, AA, E, AA, R, AA, R, AA. That's more than 1/3 of your mana gone. This doesn't even include whether you landed all your skillshots. Furthermore, the laughable portion of this is that all your abilities (except R) scale terribly with only AP. As an ADC you can't build mana/ap items so you're left with your ult to reliably trade. The ratios for max rank ult (doubled) are 300 + 130% bonus AD and 50% AP. Because you've built only AD items (Triforce, Runaans, BoRK, IE, LDR) your ult will scale well. Since Q,W,E don't scale with AD, we can assume you'll primarily use R to attempt to trade. Level 18 Kog'Maw with sheen has 1258 mana. In extended team fights you can only ult 6 (1100 mana) times to efficiently keep yourself from going OOM. You'll be doing mega damage with the sheen only if you're landing the very difficult skillshot. Even then its not a reliable way to trade with anyone.

Immobile. Current meta consist of fast paced games in which everyone builds mobility or cancerous anti-mobility to out play their opponent. Already immobile, this puts Kog'Maw and his team mates in a very bad spot. At 325 base MS he stands next to other ADC but what makes Kog stand out is that he is the worst ADC botlane because of his kit compared to others. For example, Ashe is another ADC that is very immobile but has abilities that help her survive (slows on autos and R), same with Varus, Jinx, and Cait. On the other hand, other ADCs have gap close such as Lucian and Corki that can be used either defensively or offensively. Kog'Maw has no self peel besides E which at max rank is a 52% slow every 12 seconds which people can easily side step or get out of. So if Kog'Maw gets jumped on and the support cannot protect him, he is 100% dead.

Honestly, I've had more success with AP Kog'Maw simply because I can cater to his mana costs and benefit from the AP scaling on all his abilities. Building tear then ludens echo gives me the move speed and enough AP to clear an entire wave with a couple autos on the melee and ulting the back line. This allows me to clear wave effectively and roam top and bot. Move speed, which is a problem for Kog since he's jumped on so often is a must on AP Kog to out run your opponents. MS quints, Ludens echo, Lich Bane, Rylias+Liandries are built on Kog because they synergize with him TOO well. AP Kog maw uses every ability (even W since it scales 1%=100AP which could work well with nashors/lichbane) to maximum potential to take out opponents without using too much mana.

I'm not sure what Riot plans to do with Kog'Maw but in all honesty they should just give up with the AD bull shit because in nearly every elo no on gives shit about protecting the X composition and prefer to play the game solo. I CAN play the game solo with AP Kog. Not having to rely on anyone is a blessing since I can just peel for myself while dishing out tons of damage. Frankly, they should just give up Kog as an ADC because items do not cater to him, MS is lacking, mana problems, and meta consist of cancer ADC that build youmoos/black cleaver which makes it a death wish to even walk into lane. But knowing Riot, for all I care make him a tank or support or something stupid.

or actually fix the fucking champion.

36 Comments

Astôlfo2 votes

Honestly, all armorpen options for ranged should be removed, and then the ADCs get rebalanced around that instead.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

kog is a late game hyper carry caster marksmen (adc) that is his role

NodirjonSattarov4 votes

Games tend to end at around 28-34min. Kog'Maw peaks at around 40 minutes http://champion.gg/champion/KogMaw/ADC http://na.op.gg/champion/kogmaw/statistics/adc

I'm sure if you read my shit, you'd understand what I was going for. but you didn't Kog'Maw can't reach late game with current itemization and meta.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

stall the game out if you have a late game hyper carry

NodirjonSattarov2 votes

I'm not going to say this again, CURRENT META AND ITEMIZATION IS THE PROBLEM.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

his itemization is fine... item 3153 item 3124 item 3085 item 3031

NodirjonSattarov2 votes

He doesn't build rage blade or IE.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

hmm yea he does... and he should ...

NodirjonSattarov3 votes

I don't think you read my article at all. Not going to keep going with this.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

your title was kog has no role... I said he does and now you want to argue every lil thing... you are the one with the arguing not me ...

FallenSeruvim2 votes

literally worthless damage, no pen, 50% unreliable rng crit burst, the moment someone builds a GA or randuins/visage against you, you deal literally no damage to that person. Kog is low dmg, no mobility. Sounds fun ;(

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

he does damage he always have

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B14iw4Pf,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-16T04:28:01.003+0000)

he does damage he always have

ADC Kog used to bounce back and forth with Karthus for highest average damage over the course of a game. Right now he's 4 to 5k damage on average lower. So... no. He doesn't have the damage he always did.

AP Kog can overcome the shitty new Ult and poke with it due to Luden's, but ADC Kog can't anymore.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

so if you build damage and attack champs he does no damage?

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B14iw4Pf,comment-id=000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-16T05:04:23.319+0000)

so if you build damage and attack champs he does no damage?

Are you naturally this obtuse, or does it require effort on your part?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

every one is claiming kog does no damage... which isnt true... maybe his damage out put isnt as high as other champs but he does damage ...

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B14iw4Pf,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:20:39.360+0000)

every one is claiming kog does no damage... which isnt true... maybe his damage out put isnt as high as other champs but he does damage ...

That isn't what everyone is claiming. The claim is that his average game damage has dipped significantly since his 5.19 version. And given that Kog brings only damage to the table for his team, any change to his damage output is far more significant than it is to other champions who have a wider range of skills they bring to a team composition. If Kog's damage is only a little higher than the the other Marksmen who can also do other things besides damage, then picking Kog is iffy. And if some Marksmen out-damage Kog, there's no reason to use him at all.

This is why trying to balance Kog purely around damage is a bad idea. It leads to knife-edge balance where the slightest changes could catapult him into game-breaking territory or drop him into the dumpster.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

thats every champ ... not just kog

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B14iw4Pf,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:39:34.730+0000)

thats every champ ... not just kog

The hell are you talking about?

The only two champs in the game who have no hard CC, no speed boosts, no defensive abilities, and no mobility are Kog and Karthus. They're the only two champs balanced purely around their damage and nothing else.

There are champs who can lose out on a TON of damage and still be useful because of the utility they bring to the table. Look at release Rek compared to how she is now. Her damage was absolutely gutted to the point that she's a knockup bot, but she's still a contested pick in LCS due to her utility.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

hold up the LEAGUE we play and the LEAGUE the pros play are two completely different games...

and all champs can be OP or dumpster based on any # adjustment of damage on abilities...

Kog And Balls1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B14iw4Pf,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-16T16:20:39.360+0000)

every one is claiming kog does no damage... which isnt true... maybe his damage out put isnt as high as other champs but he does damage ...

Thats the issue though Riot has been peddling Kog as the ULTIMATE IN LATE GAME CARRY TECHNOLOGY for a long time and at one point it was probably true, but over the years he has really fallen to the wayside with champion releases and updates. His kit is extremely dated for a Marksman he brings no utility, no lane pressure, and no compelling reason to get picked.

To put Kogs kit in perspective they literally had to allow him to double his attack speed just so he could compete with other Marksman.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cucked Maw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B14iw4Pf,comment-id=000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-17T05:50:01.051+0000)

Thats the issue though Riot has been peddling Kog as the ULTIMATE IN LATE GAME CARRY TECHNOLOGY for a long time and at one point it was probably true, but over the years he has really fallen to the wayside with champion releases and updates. His kit is extremely dated for a Marksman he brings no utility, no lane pressure, and no compelling reason to get picked.

To put Kogs kit in perspective they literally had to allow him to double his attack speed just so he could compete with other Marksman.

It's absolutely baffling, as far as I'm concerned. Kog gets a little bit of attack speed, some resist shred, and %HP damage that only scales with AP. That isn't a loadout for a hyper-scaling ADC. Far from it. In fact, that's more like what you would expect to find in a bruiser's kit. Late game scaling champions, actual late game scaling champions, have tools that multiply the effectiveness of the AD/IAS/Crit that they buy.

If Kog's W interacted with Crit chance somehow, I could see him actually filling the 'hypercarry' boots. But I still don't think that's the best route for him. I think he would work better as a resist shred/damage amp focused Marksmen to act as the glue to hold high utility/low damage teams together.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

yeah they had to double his attack speed cap for him to do damage.

hasn't kog maw balance been a prob since vayne release because she does kog job better?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

he has always did damage... all champs do damage... soraka. janna bard etc do they do as much damage as others no... but that being said he has done damage and always will... maybe he isnt as strong as others... but he was broken 3 weeks ago with blood razor, rage blade, bork build. and every one cried about it... they revert the rework and now people cry

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

yeah they had to double his attack speed cap for him to do damage.

hasn't kog maw balance been a prob since vayne release because she does kog job better?

Riot has had trouble balancing Kog since he was first created. Because he only has damage as a lever to balance around, he either does so much more damage than everyone else that it's unhealthy for the game, or he deals slightly more damage and then why the hell would you ever pick him over Jinx or Twitch or Vayne?

Though Vayne and Jinx in particular have made things harder for Kog. Jinx does the 'long range Marksmen' thing much more reliably and Vayne does the 'tank busting Marksmen' thing more reliably. It's true Kog covers both of those niches, but his weaknesses are so pronounced that it doesn't help a great deal.

If Riot wants to buff Kog, they need to focus on one of the non-damage parts of his kit. I'm partial to focusing him on resist shred/damage amplification to increase his team's damage. No other Marksmen exists in that space and it would fit well with Riot's idea that you build a high utility team around Kog to protect him. If Kog is focused heavily on amping damage, then the low damage output of his team wouldn't matter as much.

Kog And Balls6 votes

Late game and Hyper Carry are not words used to describe a champs role they explain a champs power curve. As far as Kog being a caster marksman not really he can't scale the damage on his basic abilities with attack damage or armor pen. Lucian is a caster marksman Kog isn't. His W and R are the only defining parts of his kit and they support a poke strat kind of but not really.

NodirjonSattarov2 votes

exactly! I've been trying to explain this but no one seems to understand. I have over 500 games this season with Kog'Maw (ranked and norms) and I've had tremendous success with him AP rather than AD. I stated above that his abilities scale (awfully) with AP besides ult so building towards attack speed and the little AD you accumulate neglect the other abilities.

Kog And Balls2 votes

Me and my homie Rebonack understand we've been posting up a fucking storm about Kog and his current state, but Riot doesn't seem to care. We've had exactly zero Riot responses to any of our threads over the past month, no twitter responses, no ask.fm questions answered they have gone dark on the subject.

But people seem to think that Kog does something better than other Marksmen and he just doesn't. His identities are outclassed so heavily right now. Jinx is doing the long range late game carry thing better right now, Corki is a stronger magic damage presence on a team, and everyone and their grandmother is tank shredding right now with armor pen items. So I just can't fathom what people think makes Kog so great right now. They sorta just pop up in these threads and hit me with the "HES THE ULTIMATE LATE GAME HYPER CARRY" and I don't think any of these people have made it past 25 minutes on Kog.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

thank god someone besides me has been attempting to do something. I spoke to riot scarizard over twitter and he gave me vague/shitty information https://twitter.com/RiotScarizard/status/778826430520045568 and https://twitter.com/RiotScarizard/status/778829935787974656 and i've gone to reddit seeking help (build wise) and I've been begging for ADCs like MF that build armor pen out of their ass to be looked at (but riot scarizard plays alot of MF so i doubt anything from him)

Kog And Balls1 votes

Those responses are so dodgy and non-committal. I'm sure we'll have to wait until the next patch goes live to get any real answers out of Meddler or Axes. Unless of course they're to busy circle jerking on plants.

As far as builds go idk man I've dropped from Plat 1 to 4 trying to get builds to work had mild success with Trinity into Rapid fire cannon, but by the time you complete these items Jinx has her IE and Runaans and shes dickin you real hard. Ironically I'm also riding MF back up the ladder because LMAO this shit isn't getting nerfed until preseason and its freelo as fuck.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

LOL I just looked you up and can see the amount of MF games you've played. Idk man I just can't put myself through that freelo or not. I've been playing Kog'Maw bot lane but AP if my preferred support duo is on. Its easy and cheesy and late game dmg is insane. Also you can start dark seal since its a relatively safe lane.

Agave King1 votes

Id agree with you on that.

Kog main

Rebonack3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cucked Maw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B14iw4Pf,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-10-15T16:10:18.082+0000)

Late game and Hyper Carry are not words used to describe a champs role they explain a champs power curve. As far as Kog being a caster marksman not really he can't scale the damage on his basic abilities with attack damage or armor pen. Lucian is a caster marksman Kog isn't. His W and R are the only defining parts of his kit and they support a poke strat kind of but not really.

I was going to pop in to point this out, but Cucked beat me to the punch.

'Hyper carry' and 'Protect the ___ ADC' aren't champion roles. The first is a power curve and the second is a weakness. Vayne and Twitch both have a power curve similar to Kog's. The main difference is that they're both stronger than Kog at every single stage of the game. They kick in sooner and they tend to be more successful late.

Vayne's niche is being the best anti-tank Marksmen. Period. She's basically a ranged Skirmisher/Assassin thing. No one else really does what she does, a terrifying combination of solid poke and sustained damage along with one of the best self-peels in the game.

Twitch's niche is being the late game AoE monster, playing counter-point to MF's early/mid game AoE monster. Well, ostensibly early/mid on MF. Itemization has skewed her pretty hard, but whatever.

And Kog?

Kog's niche is apparently dealing a nice chunk of True Damage, because he's going to be feeding like a fancy buffet. Artillery Kog has been crippled, though QEW/LichR still hurts a fair bit (nerfs for it incoming on PBE, woohoo!). That's more interactive, I guess? But why not just use basically any other artillery mage? His ability to Spellblade weave has been kicked in the teeth due to his Nerfed ult. Machine gun Kog died in a fire. So what's left at this point?

Basically either 1) Riot finds some way to make AP Kog work that they consider 'healthy' and not 'painful to play against', whatever the hell that means. Or 2) give him a new passive and focus him very heavily on resist shred/damage amplification for his team. That's a thing he actually does that's unique among ADCs, so why not roll with that?

Shyviona1 votes

I take him bot. Ez gg

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

oh yeah? and look at the amount of games won. look at how much dmg you do per game. dont give me that "ez gg" bull shit

Agave King1 votes

I play kog bot just look at my match history, (finding what builds are good right now). Rageblade is still a decent item on him (haavent ssen anyone play him), the ap on his w scales nice. well if your runes are set up right without giving up on ad, you could top 100+/- ap and have bork then have w 17% current health dmg. That's pretty much chunking bars no matter how much health you have. If you add runaans to crit its preaty much a nice mix of crits magic and basic ad dmg.

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