A strategic game means "Your choices win the game."
If you make it so champs always have a 50/50 match-up, that in and of itself is "Destroying the strategic side of League".
However, people on the boards feel bad when they lose to the strategic side of this game (not building right/not picking the right champ or comp/not playing the match right). Then they blame Riot for that, anyway.
What do?
FOR JUSTICE2 votesthe boards is not in any way a hive mind, so its absolutely impossible for riot to please everyone.
chipndip11 votesYou say this, but we have 100+ upvotes on "Fire the balance team" threads.
FOR JUSTICE1 voteswe always have those :p
chipndip11 votesSo you guys ARE a hive mind, but only when it comes to being negative about the game. You guys have 0 concept of an actually balanced game. You simply understand that you hate being snowballed on, and you understand that some champions either are or feel like they're stronger than others, then complain about those.
Even if I make a thread with blatantly obvious evidence to back the claim that "Hey, you guys need to think ahead before you complain about X/Y/Z", people say "B-b-b-but statistics?!? ACTUAL EMPIRICAL DATA DOESN'T COUNT!" Idc what you think about the boards being a hive mind or not, you guys have no semblance of balance to be telling actual people who actually do it for a living that they should lose their jobs. If this doesn't apply to you, then apply it to the general population of boards users that keep spamming threads about firing the balance team. Rotten bunch...
FOR JUSTICE1 votes"we always have those" actually DISPROVES the face of a hive mind, because there will always be posts who enjoy whats in the meta. its more of an echo chamber due to the fact that way more often youre going to see threads ranting, because people here dont generally make posts for being happy at something. its just easier to remember qq threads too, due to the negativuty bias.
also. personally never have i once, in any way, shape or form, thought or said that the balance team wasnt qualified for their jobs or called for their firing.
chipndip11 votesYeah, in my typing, I wanted to make sure I left that wiggle room. You seem aight to me.
I just hate that, if I want to have a REAL discussion about this game, I can't come to the boards. Rather, I have to go to Discord. Everyone here just cries. It's not even GOOD crying. Like, I get it. Sometimes we gotta bitch. Sometimes we gotta bitch HARD. Sometimes there's guys like me that aren't passionate enough, so guys like them gotta just ignore me and scream until Riot makes a change sooner rather than later, but there's many times where the community gets it wrong or just constantly focuses their energy on the dumbest things and I just want it to change. They made Gameplay+, but it's not much, and it's hard to get really macro-scale discussions on that board. I like discussing the games I like on forums, but I fucking hate League's forums. In the fighting game community, we'd call the vast majority of people here a bunch of scrubs.
woodvsmurph2 votesYou have a few good ideas, but your execution is flawed.
Champion choice and items play a factor in who is victorious in different situations and they should. But they should be just that... FACTORS. As in... data points which contribute to a the final outcome and influence it to a certain degree. However, they should not be the only or even necessarily primary determining factor in deciding the outcome.
The primary factor should be a player's skill. Secondarily should be itemization and champions - with champions honestly being a distant 3rd assuming they are being played in their proper role. Putting priorities in this order creates the greatest emphasis on actual skill and strategy and leads to the most rewarding/fun gameplay possible.
But... in rock paper scissors, you blindly pick and win or lose based on which of the 3 you picked. Isn't that like champ select and therefore champ choice being the primary factor perfectly ok? No. In rock paper scissors, it is fine for your blind pick to determine the outcome because the other person must also blindly pick and so you are measuring your reasoning/deductive or pure chance skills (depending on if best of 1 or several matches) rather than determining who is the best "rock" or "scissors" player. Whereas in league you are essentially determining who is the best rock player and oh... they also have to hope 4 other people on their team are also the best "rock" players too. You see... one person has an innate advantage of counter-pick in league. So making champion counter-picking the PRIMARY factor in the outcome of a match leaves one side at an innate disadvantage. This can be somewhat overcome with team coordination and pre-planning in champ select, but it still exists. So there's fallacy 1 destroyed - champion select is not in fact true strategy which can/should be used as a PRIMARY determining factor in the outcome of a lol match. It can play a part, but should not be the MAIN part.
Next let's tackle itemization. So the predictable argument here in your favor goes something like... a darius top building full attack speed shouldn't beat a fiora top building standard items. To which I'd largely say... yes. Provided skill matchup is anywhere close to equal, the darius might cheese a kill or two early, but then get wrecked by fiora and should lose all subsequent 1v1's after a certain point... probably 2-3 items. But now, I offer you the flip side of the coin to that type of scenario. I'm playing jax and I built essence reaver cuz it's op on him. I'm vs darius. Now if I play my cards right, I outscale at 2+ items and can beat him pretty easily... snowballing myself ahead and becoming unbeatable. But let's say I don't understand the purpose of essence reaver so I essentially waste the passive of the item - which is what makes it so good for jax (keeping his e up non-stop if you pop ult before using e). I also fail to land my stuns on darius, waste my empowered aa's on minions most of the time, have poor mana usage, and never dodge a single darius q... so he heals every time he uses q. In that type of scenario the jax should lose even though he is jax (who beats darius; counterpick - which we destroyed in rock paper scissors scenario) and even though I have better 1v1 items. Arguing jax should lose here is no different than arguing that the darius should lose to the fiora we talked about earlier.
So if we look at that last discovery closely... we realize that what we WANT as the ultimate determining factor (the PRIMARY factor/data points) is... skill. Skill in 1v1 micro and macro. Skill in teamfights and skirmishes. Actual knowledge and tactics which a player uses and the skill and speed with which they input their desires into the keyboard and mouse to affect what their character does onscreen. The decisions they make about pushing or freezing... retreating, grouping, splitting, rotating... etc. This is what should be the primary determining factor and therefore, people CAN BE (not always are... but can be) 100% validated in complaining about strategy while simultaneously criticizing counterpicks and itemization. What they are really complaining about (if it is a valid complaint) is that itemization or champion select has overtaken true skill and in-match strategy as the primary determining factor. I.E. "I win because I'm playing jax" or "I win because I have spectre's cowl" regardless of how poorly I play compared to my opponent(s). And if that is indeed the reason for them complaining, then they are indeed justified in doing so. Because again... this isn't rock paper scissors or the lottery. This is league and it is supposed to be about the best individuals and the best teamwork determining the outcome.
chipndip11 votesYou have a few good ideas, but your execution is flawed.
Aight, I'll entertain this.
However, they should not be the only or even necessarily primary determining factor in deciding the outcome.
Where did I imply anything about how much anything should or shouldn't decide the game in this thread, when this thread is a commentary on community opinion?
You made this long dissertation which basically sums up to: I want to just pick whatever the fuck I want and not have to worry about being wrong in my choices. Sure, it's a straw man, but it's pretty accurate to what this big old post says. You can't bitch about the game losing its strategic edge when you also complain about wanting even match-ups in every match-up. A strategic game becomes less so when you don't have to think about your options to win. That's how strategic games are and always will be. If you don't care, which you apparently don't, don't be a part of the crowd that wants Riot to make the game "More about strategy" because you're more concerned with the Tekken-styled 1v1s than you are about actual strategical input and making your choices based on what you see happening in the game. If you want to play on auto-pilot, go ahead, but be true to yourself.
woodvsmurph2 votesI'm sorry a few paragraphs scare you. I guess that explains a lot. So I won't bother to write anything longer than your last reply. Instead I will simply say that a thoughtful review of what I wrote will prove my point to be anything but a straw man. You have attempted to turn it into that with your comments to be sure; however, anyone actually reading and comprehending anything I wrote will find that your argument is no more than a sorry attempt to use untruth in a manner similar to how I disproved your claim with ACTUAL truth. With that, there is nothing more to say in argument to you. Either you will actually read what I wrote, comprehend it, and accept; or you will stubbornly continue to bury your head and refuse to critically think about the topic.
chipndip11 votesI already read what you wrote. It's just bullshit.
Yeah, no shit the game's designed so you can tackle a match-up by playing around your weaknesses.
It's ALSO designed so you can think your way through your weaknesses by avoiding them or building against them.
"Oh snap, Chipndip1 thinks Jax should auto-win against Darius because he bought an Essence Reaver!?!? WHAT?" Who the fuck said this? The last time I told you to state where I said "Strategic elements should be the primary/only factors that decide the game", you skirted that and started doing this psuedo-big boy talk. So, once again where did I say someone should auto-win just by counter-building? You think you're doing all this "smart talk" when you're really just talking out your filthiest crevice. And for what? For me to give a long form answer to your filthiest product coming out that crevice? No.
News flash, guy: League doesn't have a ton of items that shut down champs excessively hard. Many items are generalist in nature, and many champions have answers to many situations, which is another element of strategic play in this game. You hyper-focusing on laning 1v1s and how much you think "OuTplAYiNg" is that more important than thinking ahead of your opponent in terms of build or champion drafting is just a testament to the overall knowledge you have of the game and bring to this conversation...which ain't much. Expected...still disappointed.
woodvsmurph2 votes"being countered by picks/items"
Read your title. And try showing some respect with your tone. You are literally offering nothing but insults and snide remarks while I offer an honest discussion with points that can be debated.
You don't look at a song and just say... it's awful. You say... I don't like the lyrics because they make no sense or... the beat is just completely off... or I simply don't like that genre. And that's fine. That doesn't make the song bad or wrong, but it means it isn't for you. You've offered an actual explanation of WHY which can be discussed. You however fail to even offer something as simple as this when you write. You get to "it's awful" and that's as far as you make it for discussion.
Jax should auto-win vs darius because of essence reaver according to chipndip1? I never wrote that. You are accusing me of writing that, but I never did. Proof you didn't read. You accuse me of claiming you say itemization can auto-win just by counter-building. But I never wrote that. Once again... you are failing to read and comprehend. Before you go leveling judgement, make sure you understand what you've read and what you are talking about.
Why would jax win vs darius? Because of the 3 factors I mention in my original post to which you also allude. 1. skill. This is the most important factor in my opinion and should be the most important factor. When people say jax beats darius, they assume near-equal skill of the two players. If one is way better than the other, this changes the outcome dramatically. 2. champion v champion matchup. Jax is a counterpick to darius, and while darius can fare fine vs him early - all other things being equal - he gets outscaled in terms of champ kit. 3. Itemization. Jax simply makes better use of items/has better scaling off items. Jax can more easily get away with itemizing to 1v1 and even if darius itemizes completely for 1v1 jax, jax's superior dueling kit later into the game comes into effect and he can still beat the darius if he also itemizes equally for the 1v1 provided points 1 (skill) and 2 (champ kit in dueling) requirements are met.
So as you can see, 3 factors must be in play for jax (or any champ) to beat darius (or any champ). All 3 have some level of influence. Your title is written in such a way that you appear to claim that simply because 2 of these 3 factors exist, people can't complain about lack of strategy. I thoroughly break down how simply having either or both of these two without the third (skill of player) playing a key role leads to unfun and unfair gameplay. I argue that this then in fact DOES give people the right to complain about lack of strategy despite the first 2 (counterpick, itemization) existing. To this you have offered no counter-argument. You have merely shouted that you disagree with me, leveled accusations against me making false claims about what I have written, and insulting me. I'm sorry if you don't understand what I'm writing, but there's really nothing more to be said here.
Sirsir1 votesThe boards is largely a rage circlejerk. People come to complain. Thats why riot doesn't take them seriously
ez mental boom1 votesI agree
Buff Zed, nerf offensive runes, let QSS drop his ult again
chipndip11 votesBuffing Zed is meaningless if the ult's dropped by QSS again, cause then his basic kit is going to be enough to murder you even without snowballing to compensate him not having an ult.