I miss when ADCs built defensive items

Mira Arya Enthe·Feb 23, 2017·39 votes·5,870 views

Was watching some pre-rework Ashe and Caitlyn games from S2 and S3. Noted seeing a lot of Frozen Mallet, GA, BV, some off cases of defensive boots and even a Doran's shield. I wish this was still viable, but with how hardwired their kits are aimed towards scaling on pure crit(Like Ashe's new passive) and AS/AD(Ashe's new Q) it doesn't seem viable to even build one unless you are fed and need a GA(or just buying it so you feed Darius fewer resets).

https://youtu.be/KxQ0MK3oOkE?t=52m38s Just one example

72 Comments

badoogaFeb 23, 201723 votes

What are you talking about, Ashe has been building item 3075 for forever

IncarcerationFeb 24, 20172 votes

I actually remember doing that when I was like level 23 to counter a Rengar. That was like 2 years ago. xd

SalronFeb 23, 20179 votes

ADCs don't deal damage to current iterations of tanks[with only 5 damage items] so they're forced into 6 damage item builds now

Edit: I forgot to put some words in there rofl

Mira Arya EntheFeb 23, 20175 votes

ADCs do deal plenty of damage to tanks. The problem is everything else deals too much damage, and ADCs deal too much damage with certain builds to other squishies. So why slowly DPS a tank down if you can just one shot an entire enemy team with one rotation anymore?

EedatFeb 23, 20171 votes

ADCs do deal plenty of damage to tanks. The problem is everything else deals too much damage, and ADCs deal too much damage with certain builds to other squishies.

Yeah, once they build item 3142 item 3814 item 3147 item 3071 item 3036 + Boots which is exactly what he said lol

Mira Arya EntheFeb 23, 20174 votes

On Ashe last game it took me less than 5-6 seconds to kill a 5600hp ChoGath and a tank build Blitz who were fed, through redemption healing. At that time my items were

item 3036 item 3508 item 3085 item 3006 item 3026

The problem is. The only reason that was possible is the enemy lacked the hogh damage cancer picks and items that have been plaguing us. So I lived 6 seconds to dps. ADCs kill tanks fine. The problem is they now scale far more on pure damage, enemies squish them too fast regardless of defensive items and games are too short for them to scale.

EedatFeb 24, 20172 votes

I can make things up too. On Braum I killed Baron at level 1 solo

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 24, 20172 votes

You know you can see the game in OP's match history right?

EedatFeb 24, 20171 votes

You know that just because the game happened doesnt mean he "killed a 5600 HP Cho'gath in 5 seconds" right?

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 24, 20172 votes

You know that OP can easily grab a replay and confirm right?

EedatFeb 24, 20171 votes

Why even bother? Just loaded into a practice tool and grabbed the items he said.

I did 450 DPS against a 100 armor practice dummy

Can you explain how this translates into over 1k dps against a Cho with item 3075 item 3047 item 3110 ?

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 24, 20172 votes

But how do you know the Cho had 100 armor? Hmm?

EedatFeb 24, 20171 votes

Are you serious? He had much more than 100 armor.

How do you translate 450 DPS into 1k DPS against a much more heavily armored opponent?

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 24, 20172 votes

Did you bring this item 3036 into account? Hmm?

Remember that since Cho had higher HP, item 3036 gives more physical damage output because of the passive. Not to mention the armor shred.

EedatFeb 24, 20173 votes

jesus fucking christ dude

Cho: 88.4 (Base) + 230 (bonus) = 318.4

item 3036 -45% bonus armor

Cho: 88.4 (Base) + 125.5 (bonus) = 214.9

So if your opponent has double the armor it actually doubles your DPS? K

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 24, 20172 votes

Now now, don't swear. It reflects poorly on you.

Don't forget the bonus physical damage that item 3036 provides.

Also did you check OP's runes?

I see 3 atk speed quints, and 9 ad marks.

Masteries include Fury and Battle Trance as well as Battering Blows. Did you take those into account? Hmm?

Mira Arya EntheFeb 24, 20171 votes

I posted the replay and explanation, don't worry over it. I also noticed the target dummies took less damage from my DPS build on Shyvana than a full build Rammus or Malphite take.

Mira Arya EntheFeb 24, 20172 votes

I do stand corrected on items. I had my PD at this point when I solo killed him. Only one Q and E by Jayce and you can see it didn't have a huge effect. Riven did not attack at all. And Cho had 10 stacks PLUS he had full build plus potion active. His build even included 3 anti-adc items.

https://vid.me/IOkl 6s. At most without Jayce it would have been 8s as his hits were worth about 2S of my DPS. Mind you this is with only one anti-tank item.

I did kill him earlier in the game a couple times without the PD when he also had fewer items in about the same amount of time. That said, those clips were in confused team fights and I switched targets between him, Vi and blitz in several making the total time longer. Plus they were not unassisted. I can grab those clips also if you like, but this one, despite the PD is the best example as I only get two hits from Jayce and Cho also has even more items and HP here.

Again, there were other examples, even some with him dying faster. But this one had the least assistance. (As if an ADC should ever be unassisted)

I also took ER instead of IE which is a DPS drop.

EedatFeb 24, 20172 votes

LOL see this is exactly what I'm talking about. First off, Cho was already missing 500HP from the beginning of your clip. 2nd Jayce dropped his full combo and you can actually see him weaving his autos in his hammer form on Cho so your "only one Q and E by Jayce" is literal bullshit. Not to mention you neglected the Jayce Q that you convienttly tried to edit out of the beginning but failed. Oh and ignored Jayce's W as well. How are you going to upload a clip where Jayce is clearly doing more than "one Q and E" then try to lie about it?

It's in your own clip

wtf?

Why are did you even bother uploading it if you were just going to lie about it? You were better off just trying to keep the lie alive lmao

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 24, 20171 votes

If Cho stacked armor then clearly Jayce's full combo isn't doing as much as you claim. Heck Kass is doing more than Jayce, at least his stuff isn't getting eaten by armor.

Mira Arya EntheFeb 24, 20171 votes

Forgot Jayce's W, it isn't doing that much damage as it doesn't benefit from Lethality and Cho had decent MR.

I don't know why the beginning cut off. I opened with a volley and a couple AAs before the clip started. I can go re-record it I suppose lol.

There was not one AA weaved in. I just watched it in slow motion several times. The only major damage Jayce dealt was his knockback because %HP.

I already clarified lol "Without Jayce it would have likely taken 8s"

Again, there were other examples, even some with him dying faster. But this one had the least assistance. (As if an ADC should ever be unassisted)

I also took ER instead of IE which is a DPS drop.

Meanwhile, still nothing like your estimates of 450DPS vs a 100 armor target lolwtf.

Oh and Riven does get one AA for 200 dmg before you try to point that out. lol

So my time estimate of "6 seconds" I made from work hours after the game was a tad too much. But then again, an ADC should never be unassisted in a normal team fight anyway.

Mira Arya EntheFeb 24, 20171 votes

Again. Already said without Jayce it would have been 8s vs a Cho building anti-adc, with ONE anti-tank item.

He did weave 0 AAs lol? Watch it again.

His E and W do magic damage meaning he applied at most 2 stacks of cleaver by the very end of the fight. But watching it in game I am 90% certain his ranged form Q hit minions.

Mira Arya EntheFeb 24, 20171 votes

Sigh lemme go fetch the replay as soon as I get home, man people are dumb.

doublelift fgFeb 23, 201713 votes

Hahahahahaha

adc can destroy a tank with just item 3031 item 3085 item 3036 so imagine if throw item 3153 into it(getting buffed) the reason they don't build defensive items is because it won't save you against anything which means it doesn't matter if you build defense or not

i used to build ninja tabi against zed, and now it doesn't make a single difference he's going to kill me

5000000000000000Feb 23, 20171 votes

ADCs build those, sure, but they also need another crit/AS item, lifesteal item, and boots. Missing any one of these items is a huge hit to their DPS.

Sahn UzalFeb 23, 20171 votes

Which is why Riot made it so you can buy item 3035 for a little amount of gold whenever you need it, and just sit on it untill you get to upgrade it.

5000000000000000Feb 23, 20171 votes

That addresses gold issue, but not the slot issue. If they get a defensive item, they'll have to sacrifice lifesteal, a zeal item, or boots.

Which might be optimal for maximizing overall damage output (since surviving longer means doing more damage), but their DPS is gonna be cut significantly regardless.

Sahn UzalFeb 23, 20171 votes

Oh a defensive item like Banshees hasn't been a meta option since the Marksmen update. And I'm not claiming it is.

doublelift fgFeb 23, 20174 votes

No, you asked if you're able to kill a tank, not if you needed lifesteal or idk what

As twitch i can kill any tank in the game with those 3 items, i don't need an other crit item

5000000000000000Feb 23, 20171 votes

And what if the tanks keep building tanky? Do you stop building more offense? Maybe at that specific time of the game you can destroy tanks, but as game continues you need to build more offense, and end up with 6 offense items.

doublelift fgFeb 23, 20175 votes

It doesn't matter if the tank continues to build defense, this isn't our issue

our issue is that building defense as an adc is no longer more viable than killing a tank faster and it was when league was good

5000000000000000Feb 23, 20171 votes

If they keep building tanky, 3 items (excluding boots) ADC isn't going to destroy tanks I'm also fine with ADCs not getting gibbed by tanks with sunfire+base damages, but it's pretty undeniable that ADCs need to go 6 damage items or do insignificant damage. Well, unless their team doesn't have a tank, in which case you can swap out last whisper for GA or something.

SpoofghoulFeb 23, 20171 votes

no they dont they have alot of as 50% crit just like pre season 6 adc's used to have and armorpen and % dmg and lifesteal

and the keystones and % damage masteries and % damage amp from LDR

they deal vastly more damage then any season before, the real question is will the enemy let them deal it?

you are the highest threat on the enemy team, but also the squishiest member and thus easiest to kill, barring aid from team mates ofc, so this makes you the prime target.

honestly adc's should not feel bad about building a defensive item at all since it will probably not impact their dps much as they can play more aggressive and land more attacks so it evens out anyway

EedatFeb 23, 20171 votes

This is just bullshit lol. You need 4 items before you can start doing actual damage to tanks

doublelift fgFeb 23, 20172 votes

you have 200 AD, crit=500damage on a tank with 50% chance=average damage is 350

you hit 10 times and you deal 3500 damage to the tank, now throw this into armor and armor pen and tell me the outcome black cleaver is so built in this game i would even take it in account

Sp33d Zer0Feb 24, 20171 votes

Let's consider at this point, tanks are at two armor items, so that is reduced by about 50% after your pen.

SasogwaFeb 23, 20177 votes

Imo they get offensive item because they're safe enough, they don't even need another defensive item. Also item 3139 is the best defensive item in the game. Cleansing a CC is way more powerful than having a bit of defensive stats that would get shit on by overwhelming damage anyway. Makes me laugh when people say they need to go for 6 offensive items because else they don't have enough damage. Not at all. It's because defense is shit, and damage is way too good and scales way too well. (and measly nerfs to masteries aren't gonna change that fact) You could go item 3085 item 3006 item 3031 item 3153 item 3036 item 3026 if you wanted.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 24, 20171 votes

Cleansing a CC is great...

But most people that kill you right now don't need to rely on cc

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 23, 20174 votes

Time to build Thornmail Ashe ohhh yeaaah.

Linna ExcelFeb 23, 20172 votes

I think there's a number of things going on.

Lethality on the other ADC
Tanks mean you need to deal as much damage as possible
No room in your build.
A bad idea for midgame when you might be able to use it most because you need damage.
One defensive item and you still get blown up.

doublelift fgFeb 23, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ayin9K3i,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-23T18:24:44.291+0000)

One defensive item and you still get blown up.

this

Big LincolnFeb 23, 20171 votes

it always bugged me that ashe utility scaled with crit after the rework

Mira Arya EntheFeb 23, 20176 votes

Obviously they didn't want support Ashe as viable as Support MF despite Ashe actually having a support tag secondary for 5 seasons :^D

Big LincolnFeb 23, 20173 votes

which is weird considering that all ADCs are here to support their juggernaut masters

would like to see more utilitarian ADC, not enough variety in the class

Mira Arya EntheFeb 23, 20174 votes

Ashe, Jhin, Sivir and Varus are my favorite ADCs because I prefer utility over total DPS(Granted Sivir and Ashe have good final build DPS). The problem is that damage overall is too damn high. Just like the rent.

Gregor GysiFeb 23, 20171 votes

Yeah, the glorious times of item 3053 item 3156 on every ADC - wait no, that was actually super shitty.

MagikarpIsBossFeb 23, 20175 votes

That isn't what he was talking about. He was talking about things like Frozen Mallet, Tabis, Banshees, Dorans Shield, etc. No one wants adcs to build how you are mentioning.