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I know that Sion shouldn't be directly touched in the Vanguard update.

Ralanr··63 votes·14,040 views

But if he was, there are only two things I would want done to him.

  1. His passive. Please let Sion's boots actually mean something in his passive. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Sion's speed is decreased when in his passive. So much that people can simply outrun you without using a dash or slow. This also makes Sion's MS boost feel less impactful (imo) because the speed increase decays too quickly for you to land even two hits on a target. If you don't want to change the MS then at least shorten the delay.

  2. Stop letting people go through Sion when he's charging his Q. He's a zombie, not a ghost. They are completely different types of undead. I know it's a form of counterplay, but Sion already has a bunch of counterplay (his Q alone has three forms of counterplay at least if you include this. Is there such a thing as too much counterplay?).

These are mainly personal issues I have with Sion. Overall he's very well balanced and doesn't really need changes. But if he got any, these are what I would prefer.

117 Comments

RiotMeddler47 votes

We're not planning any changes to Sion specifically. It's likely we'll make some tweaks to defensive base stats on most or all tanks, that'll just be small number changes rather than ability modifications though.

ModAcademy Kayn5 votes

If ya don't mind me asking, or if you'd rather keep it hush hush ;), Riot has been focusing a lot on securing Key stats for each type of champion (Supports CDR and Mana Regen, Mages Flat Mana, Assassin's Pen, Divers Tri-force). For tanks, do you think you'll focus more on health or Armor/MR stats when it comes to designing them out?

LongHair Fox5 votes

I think I remember someone at riot saying that they wanted juggernauts to have health tied to them while tanks get mr/armor.... Now that was back during the juggernaut update so my memory might be wrong or riot may have changed policy.

Malicious Metal3 votes

Juggernauts love HP and total AD since they usually scale exponentially with hp through mechanics like Iron Man or Decimate.

AirKingNeo1 votes

or Sterak's Gage

Tychusfindlay9194 votes

{quoted}

or Sterak's Gage

Except steraks has been shit for a while now because non-juggernauts were abusing the item, particularly those shitball fucking ADC mains.

Ralanr7 votes

Glad to hear Meddler! Though I do have some questions if you do not mind.

  1. Are you using Sion's design as a model for the tank reworks similarly how you used Zed for the assassins?
  2. What's your best estimate on when the specific tanks of this update will be chosen and how long after that decision will you release that information publicly?
  3. Are you altering base stats on juggernauts as well because of the similar build paths?
  4. How do you hope anti tank items (specifically item 3036) be effected by the defense itemization update?
RiotMeddler17 votes

There's some stuff we think Sion does well, as do some other tanks, that we'll be looking to do on others. Clear skill expression and appreciable high moments besides just when you initiate the first time being the big two that come to mind.

We've got work underway on the main tanks we'll be changing. Should be talking about who, what are goals are for each etc mid to late Feb.

Current thinking (still tentative) is we'll do base stat adjustments on juggernauts as well. Possible we do some light base stat tweaks to champions as a whole. We've got some suspicion defenses are too dependent on items at present, leading to champs being too squishy or too close to immortal depending on what they've built. Might soften that distinction a bit by moving some power from some items to base stats (per level in particular).

Still working on plan for anti defense items (LW, VS, BotRK etc). Probably some work needed there, still figuring what specifically though.

Mighty Mortein12 votes

Are there any changes you'd like to do for Thornmail? I know it's a decent niche item in the right situation, but with all the armour pen, lethality and lifesteal, it kinda loses its identity. That could just be me, but then again, I haven't seen a Thornmail built in around 50 games.

La Bello3 votes

how do you feel about Tanky itemization having ambient damage on the side? item 3068 item 3742 item 3075 in contrast to "PURE" defensive items like item 3143 item 3065 item 3083 ? Do you feel like one overshadows the latter too much? Do you think its healthy to have a nice mix like that? Does it do its proper job in keeping the dreaded "wet noodle fights" from returning?

Melledoneus2 votes

Will we see some Warden tanks see some changes? Shen comes to mind, since he could use a brush-up given you guys weren't satisfied with how his rework turned out.

SettDownShutUp6 votes

Current thinking (still tentative) is we'll do base stat adjustments on juggernauts as well.

Makes a small prayer for mordekaiser

morris13 votes

-3 armor

LankPants2 votes

Still working on plan for anti defense items (LW, VS, BotRK etc). Probably some work needed there, still figuring what specifically though.

I don't find BotRK or Void to be huge problems as a tank player (although Void certainly is a problem for the game), the main item I take issue with is LW, and especially it's upgrade LDR. It's just too powerful of an anti-tank item. "Ignore half of your enemies stats", can you imagine if there was an item that did this for AD, ADC players would be up in arms.

I think it would be better overall if there weren't items like LDR and if tanks were just always somewhere between what they are with and without a LDR. If you are going to keep items like this in the game I feel like they need to be significantly weaker than LDR, you should be wasting gold on a shit passive (not the current +15% damage), shit stats and be buying it only for the pen. It should feel like a bad buy if you're not VS a huge tank line.

It's good to see you thinking about these items though. I'd say historically the biggest problem with tanks has been LW/LDR.

Comrad Black1 votes

Still working on plan for anti defense items (LW, VS, BotRK etc). Probably some work needed there, still figuring what specifically though.

Really happy they're on your radar. The one thing that genuinely pains me as a tank player is "Oh, mid fed out the ass and Annie's got a voidstaff by 20 minutes. I basically don't get to play this match, cool cool cool".

Something I'd like to gently point out is the fact that the absolute best tank stat (caveat free damage reduction) is only found on Phantom Dancer and Challenging Smite, which are things relatively few tanks in a given game can use. They certainly have their place, it's just baffling to me that actual tank items don't have any similar stats.

Last note on itemization: AP tanks and bruisers are really poorly supported as a whole. Shen's the posterchild for this in a SoloQ context - either he can abuse base tank items or he's quite weak. A summoner's rift version of Moonflair Spellblade (+say 2-3 similar items) would go a long way in providing AP champs tools to better tank out if they need to. This type of itemization would also go a long way towards supporting healthier or alternate build paths for champs like Vladimir and Kassadin - they definitely can use existing items, but it's relatively feast or famine. Real AP bruiser gear provides an option reduces their hard carry ceiling, but also raises their "Oh god I'm feeding, how do I stop the bleeding" floor.

(I'm aware better AP tank items would break champs like Maoki, but hey, shouldn't he really have some more %health numbers?)

At the very least, give manaless bruisers/tanks a 20%cdr option. The fact there isn't one is a relatively genuine issue on Vlad and Shen if you're trying to hit certain CDR benchmarks without otherwise crippling your champ.

Darth Pixy Misa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Comrad Black,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AyAwVlKq,comment-id=000e000200000008,timestamp=2017-02-03T08:36:19.670+0000)

Really happy they're on your radar. The one thing that genuinely pains me as a tank player is "Oh, mid fed out the ass and Annie's got a voidstaff by 20 minutes. I basically don't get to play this match, cool cool cool".

Something I'd like to gently point out is the fact that the absolute best tank stat (caveat free damage reduction) is only found on Phantom Dancer and Challenging Smite, which are things relatively few tanks in a given game can use. They certainly have their place, it's just baffling to me that actual tank items don't have any similar stats.

Last note on itemization: AP tanks and bruisers are really poorly supported as a whole. Shen's the posterchild for this in a SoloQ context - either he can abuse base tank items or he's quite weak. A summoner's rift version of Moonflair Spellblade (+say 2-3 similar items) would go a long way in providing AP champs tools to better tank out if they need to. This type of itemization would also go a long way towards supporting healthier or alternate build paths for champs like Vladimir and Kassadin - they definitely can use existing items, but it's relatively feast or famine. Real AP bruiser gear provides an option reduces their hard carry ceiling, but also raises their "Oh god I'm feeding, how do I stop the bleeding" floor.

(I'm aware better AP tank items would break champs like Maoki, but hey, shouldn't he really have some more %health numbers?)

At the very least, give manaless bruisers/tanks a 20%cdr option. The fact there isn't one is a relatively genuine issue on Vlad and Shen if you're trying to hit certain CDR benchmarks without otherwise crippling your champ.

I agree, but i dont know how Riot could make an item that reduced the damage a team does, or a item that reduces the damage you recieve, only for tanks. Items like the ones i am thinking about are definitely in the "nice things that other classes might abuse" catagory. Only way i can think of to have an item like this:

Tanky Mctanker Item, Cost : likely high 400 hp 30 armor Active - When this aura is active your opponents damage is reduced by 40%, but your damage is reduced by 30%.

Crett1 votes

I'm really curious what your stance on a sort of Rabbadon's/IE for tanks item that compounds what you've already built, and is more slot efficient the more tanky items you've bought (and thus, less efficient on champions building less tanky).

I don't know how exactly to work the numbers to actually create a distinction between full build tanks and people who have just bought one or two items, or what challenges there would be, but I've just always rattled the idea in my head.

I can see it standardizing the power curve of tanks heavily, which might be bad, but I sorta want to see what that late game looks like.

bunuchy1 votes

Are you planning on doing something to Leona? (Considering she is a vanguard support with low gold income)

Solideus1 votes

Hi Meddler, I was curious about Maokai's position regarding the mid-season update? You used a picture of him in the article. He is listed as a Warden in the Subclass List though, what's the deal? Is he being considered for work despite not being a Vanguard?

HellsTrueKing6 votes

That's so good to hear, you don't even know....I can put my worries to rest.

Sion is easily the best rework to date and my personal favorite. No need to fix what ain't broke...right...

WiegrafOfValor3 votes

Meddler, could you address the damage creep in LOL using the Vanguard update?

  • 100~200 HP on every champion at lvl 1

  • Nerf regen at fountain so teams can punish the lane more even without a kill

  • Better towers

  • Tank items having % base MR/AR bonus increase similar to Deathcap, so natural tanks could build it and it doesn't become broken when ADC and ASSASSINS start to build it.

  • Revamp Doran items;

#Doran shield 500g ( No pots )

  • HP 80
  • HP REGEN 4 flat
  • ACTIVE - Reduce AA damage by flat amount for short duration.

#Doran boots 400g ( aimed towards TOP with low mobility ) For bad matchups, cause no one like to lose on champion select

  • MS 30
  • Passive - Gain % MS at base for x amount of sec ( get to lane faster )
  • ACTIVE - Gain huge burst of MS that increase and decrease over the duration, 3 sec duration. sec1 1xMS, sec2 2xMS, sec3 1xMS.

Something like that we would apreciate. Hope you enjoy my ideas and feedback

50000000000000003 votes

I guess scaling regeneration at fountain could make lane bullies worth playing while fountains still being useful late.

kasfas1 votes

I understand that you don't have any big changes for sion, but his first point here (having to do with the passive) is a real problem. Could he be given a 10- 50% move speed bonus towards enemy champions while in passive that scales with level? As it stands sion's passive is only really good in lane, and almost entirely useless in team fights due to him likely dieing last in fights.

Now when it comes to base stats, this is an important question. What do you think you will change? Sion in particular has really weak base stats to compensate for his w passive, and I'm afraid that whatever balancing you do will really screw with him (meaning he may end up really weak or really strong in inappropriate situations).

Do you plan on giving the tankier champions base stats that scale in a more exponential fashion, or do you intend to just have their level 1 base stats be low and scale up to high values? Do you intend to have defencive items still scale logarithmically, or will you let it scale linearly? Will you have items good be flat values, or will you have items give a % of base stats as bonus stats? Will health still be the universal best tanks stat? Will we be getting more mr items? Will you be giving items with just armour more value, or will other items drop? Will items cost more in exchange for more stats, or will items just go down in price to let tanks only scale well into midgame?

That's about all I have now, but I'd like to hear more.

Siachi1 votes

Is Gnar included in with the other tanks? If so, how big a scale do you imagine his work would be? I know there's a couple of pain points about his design (Namely how he can build full tank, completely nullify one of mini form's weakness, and still do considerable damage).

Elisheva1 votes

Yay, as a tank main I am "very excited" for the incoming tank gut! yay!. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

IA9hRfpP5q12 votes

Vi what's counter play?

Malicious Metal19 votes

Not being on her shitlist

50000000000000004 votes

picks Caitlyn "Care for a spot of tea? Or maybe a spot of punch in the face."

Glory ln Death4 votes

I was thinking about this the other day, and I agree that the only thing that should really even be considered is his passive. I came up with 4 possible ideas:

  1. Give Sion maybe 25% slow resist during his passive.

  2. Give Sion maybe 75% slow resist just during Death Surge.

  3. Possibly in addition to one of the first two, remove all slows on Sion when he uses Death Surge.

  4. Reset the cooldown on Death Surge if Sion kills a unit or gets an assist (walk to a minion, activate Death Surge right before killing it so it resets, run towards the enemy, activate the second Death Surge once the first runs out). Resets are very Noxian, Sion should have one, too.

One of these options (though #3 could be tacked on to the others) would really help him actually get to use his passive outside of team fights (or as just a way to get a little extra farm after dying).

Verdade1 votes

How about: Sion releases his Q if he gets CC'd instead of cancelling it

Glory ln Death5 votes

That would be pretty unhealthy and remove one of the main counterplays to the ability. It would be like letting other charge abilities continue after hard CC (Zac slingshot, Varus/Xerath Q, Vi dash, etc). It's enough that the cooldown gets drastically reduced.

Quepha2 votes

I know that Sion shouldn't be directly touched in the Vanguard update.

why not, exactly?

Ralanr20 votes

He's already very fair and balanced.

Whip it good6 votes

Ah yes, people said the same about Vel'Koz update and yet they still changed him.

Valeckserai5 votes

Healthiest rework that Riot has done arguably. Don't screw up a good kit that's already been balanced out and modernized just because other people in the class haven't been.

BastionKross1 votes

Is there such a thing as too much counterplay?

If you point out the flaws in Sion's kit, they all stem from this. When Riot designed the new Sion, they injected counterplay into every aspect of his kit. If a bit of that counterplay were to be removed and his abilities were slightly more reliable, he'd feel much more satisfying to use.

As opposed to something like people walking right through you while you're charging Q. That doesn't feel satisfying. Or correct.

Imagine a passive that wasn't made completely irrelevant by the slightest slow! Sion is supposed to take someone down with him, not provide a joyful game of tag. Kogmaw, of all people, has an easier time killing things after he dies.

Slich Bissi6 votes

An overreaction to previous Sion who had Point and click stun, double tap on demand W damage, AD steroid and health stacking on kills and attack speed + movement speed steroid.

There was no counter play. He would just simply point and click to stun you and blow up if AP or point and click stun you and hit R and run you down and chop you up if AD.

So they went the other extreme :(

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

If he gets any buffs, they should give him some meaningful mana costs. The constant Q spam in lane is oppressive as hell.

Ralanr11 votes

...His Q is oppressive?

Really? His Q?

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

In the laning phase, absolutely.

Ralanr9 votes

It's incredibly easy to dodge and has three forms of counterplay.

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

If you want to give up CS, sure its easy to dodge. But if you're playing an immobile melee champ against someone who actually knows how to play Sion and use his Q to deny CS, its super oppressive.

Ralanr4 votes

So Sion is doing his job as a lane bully.

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

Ok, so then why were you so surprised when I said his Q is oppressive in lane?

Ralanr3 votes

Because it sounds like you think he shouldn't be bullying you.

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

I just think he should have some type of mana cost for doing so.

Ralanr6 votes

He does. Honestly it's not even his best ability to max in lane when it comes to harass unless his opponent can be caught easily. In lane I max E.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

It's incredibly easy to dodge and has three forms of counterplay.

Aren't there two? Dodge it and CC him?

Moving through him is basically dodging it, after all. CC'ing is less effective than it should be, since it's put on a reduced CD if it was canceled by CC.

Ralanr1 votes

I count it as 3 because you really wouldn't expect that you could walk through him.

Holoin

"Dont touch sion"" Hes balanced"... So a champ with almost 60% win rate is balanced... He does way too much damage early game while being tanky. Riot needs to make him weaker early game...

Why is it that when an adcs and assasins reach 50% win rate get nerfed assap, but when a tank reaches almost 60% win rate is not even looked at.

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