Is it me or Assassin's no longer furfill the criteria of "High Risk"?

BLIGHTBRINGER··81 votes·17,458 views

UPDATE: A little mistake I made in the title (fulfill*).

There are certain Assassins who have self sustain (Rengar, Akali, Evelynn) that allow them to survive in pretty much any case.

I was also going to mention Pyke but I decided against it because he's a support and based on his kit and how he kind of can't solo lane, he needs that sustain to be able to help in team fights.


Rengar Rengar: his W allows him to heal for 50% of the damage he took TWICE, and on top of that he is able to Cleanse himself of any effects he is under.

Akali Akali: To be honest now she doesn't sustain as well as she was able to before the rework. But it doesn't excuse the fact that she can still sustain well if she does buy Hextech Gunblade and even Death's Dance (something that a few streamers have been trying out such as; Professor Akali and Box Box).

Evelynn Evelynn: the thing about her healing is that it makes sense thematically. With her constantly lingering around the enemy, refusing to leave them. But it doesn't mean that she should have a such a strong sustain where (example: she is able to heal from 20 health all the way to 350 at level 6).


Then there are other champions that sustain incredibly well with an item such as Hextech Gunblade like Katarina for example.

Weren't Assassins suppose to be designed by the fact that they trade everything else for incredible damage and mobility, such as (lower defensive stats, lower base health).

I was going to mention that they are able to escape too well due to having tools like untargetability dashes but I set that aside as that's kind of crusial to fulfill the criteria of "high reward".

##What do you people think?

136 Comments

Netorare53 votes

Assassins are badly designed in league thats why they no longer have the HIGH RISK at all. The only high risk is that you fuck up the team comp but gameplay wise they no longer have HIGH RISK but only HIGH REWARD because of the braindead burst.

D357R0Y3R12 votes

yes, assassins are so safe that now pro players use them in every game

oh wait

Fízz v219 votes

They do tho, Taliyah Yasuo Zoe Camille Graves Vladimir Kindred Jhin Velkoz Chogath Jayce Nocturne all these assassins get played Kappa

D357R0Y3R10 votes

Ok you got me on nocturne

everyone else you listed are not assassins

Fízz v217 votes

They are the new age assassins omegalul

wildfox9912 votes

Velkoz and Chogath assassins,i'm done XD

Barcid3 votes

The sneaky flash/chomp from Cho.

You'll never see the 50 foot tall colossus of doom coming from the 6 foot tall bush - wait, is what I'm saying stupid?

BLIGHTBRINGER3 votes

I think the reasoning behind that is that some of the champions mentioned above take Electrocute (still the most dominating Rune, that it's being nerfed) which allow them to deal Assassin amounts of damage.

LBmyBB10 votes

He means that due to crappy kits, they can 100 you in 1 sec cuz too much damage.

Ulquiorra01231 votes

How did this get upvoted when the only one that is an assassin is Nocturne xD

BLIGHTBRINGER7 votes

Are you forgetting about Box Box who's playing Akali non stop now, or Dekkar who only plays Rengar and pretty much never dies.

D357R0Y3R9 votes

Pro players EVERYTIME picks the safest thing, they never ever picked assassins unless they're busted and right now ARE not picking them except nocturne

assassins were never considered safe, I don't know how one would think that they are you can list their kit but it doesn't matter if in the end they have to get into the fight to kill someone

BLIGHTBRINGER5 votes

Why look at pro players in general? It's not like they represent what's strong or not. There are regular players of league that are able to play as good as pro players, yet they don't need recognition. Those good players oftenly play champions like (Evelynn, Kha'Zix, Nidalee, Katarina).

Yes there are some korean pro's who create metas sometimes through their pick choices or playstyles, but it doesn't meant that regular players don't also find something that is strong and off-meta.

LegitBusinessman2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ax2HErly,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-10T11:52:31.944+0000)

Why look at pro players in general? It's not like they represent what's strong or not. There are regular players of league that are able to play as good as pro players, yet they don't need recognition. Those good players oftenly play champions like (Evelynn, Kha'Zix, Nidalee, Katarina).

Yes there are some korean pro's who create metas sometimes through their pick choices or playstyles, but it doesn't meant that regular players don't also find something that is strong and off-meta.

Ezreal is considered pretty garbage by all accounts and is still picked regularly in LCS purely for safety

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

I find it funny how coincidentally as soon as he no longer remains the number 1 Marksman Riot just happen to announce that they are going to give him a rework. Just because of the fact that his W is not satisfying enough or that he is not fulfilling the theme of an adventurer good enough.

But someone like Mordekaiser who is in need of a Rework more get's delayed til next year lol (confirmed by Meddler).

Häxel1 votes

something like ezreal where you only need to change w beside the visuals and audio can be made fast (comparabel to xin, who did not get changed visuals but a new w). something like mordekaiser needs time, you want to hit it this time kidna perfect and do not want a second ryze who nees rework after rework after rework.

Nyarlathοtep12 votes

Evelynn has sustain because she is a jungler. Almost all junglers have a form of sustain. Or tankness.

LordGeovanni1 votes

evelyn didnt needs sustain as a jungler before her rework and she worked just fine in the jungle

TekkenPlayer11 votes

imo the only assassins that are balanced to me are:

Akali Katarina Pyke Ekko because their damage is conditional by outplaying the opponent instead of blow your load and force them out automatically, they have to abuse cooldowns and be wary about initiating pre-6. They don't have a "I counter 90% of the opposing laner/jungler naturally" feel to them. Safety on an assassin is good when the damage isn't frontloaded early, which is why Zed is so strong because he has both safety and and huge cheese potential.

BLIGHTBRINGER16 votes

I agree with the majority of your mentioned champions, but I disagree with Ekko. He has a Dash as well as a Blink with his E, allowing him to land his other abilities, like his Q. If he messes something up he has the (as others still call it) "I f#cked up, rewind", which heals him to his full health at some point in the game.

In my opinion Pyke is the most balanced Assassin, he can't build any health and because of that he puts himself in risk if not positioned right or when not played right. Not to mention that on top of all that, all of his abilities besides W are skillshots.

Champion Skin3 votes

I agree with the majority of your mentioned champions, but I disagree with Ekko. He has a Dash as well as a Blink with his E, allowing him to land his other abilities, like his Q. If he messes something up he has the (as others still call it) "I f#cked up, rewind", which heals him to his full health at some point in the game.

To be fair Ekko's damage is quite low/slow in that his Q + E + AA (to trigger his passive) only has 150% AP ratio and 130 - 400 base damage goes up to 210% AP ratio and 170 - 540 base damage if he lands the return on Q which does have a decent delay (yes the slow makes it a lot more difficult to avoid but the delay is still there which slows down his assassination speed)

And yes his ultimate can deal a lot of damage but then he isn't using it to escape and well it is easier said then done to use it for damage

However Ekko does have more utility than most assassins with the his AoE slow on his Q with a pretty decent range and combined with the zoning/stun of his W which does make him at least somewhat useful when he is behind or otherwise isn't able to assassinate opponents

Dont Blìnk3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ax2HErly,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-08-10T11:37:18.688+0000)

I agree with the majority of your mentioned champions, but I disagree with Ekko. He has a Dash as well as a Blink with his E, allowing him to land his other abilities, like his Q. If he messes something up he has the (as others still call it) "I f#cked up, rewind", which heals him to his full health at some point in the game.

In my opinion Pyke is the most balanced Assassin, he can't build any health and because of that he puts himself in risk if not positioned right or when not played right. Not to mention that on top of all that, all of his abilities besides W are skillshots.

A dash will inherently allow you to land other abilities easier, that's not special to Ekko lmao.

And on him using his ultimate, he's not gonna 100-0 you if he's using his ult to escape.

Tim From Work3 votes

He most certainly can kill most squishy champions without his r

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

honestly if he's not ahead, he ain't doing that in one rotation tho. or half a rotation like zed.

Beatrice falls5 votes

For Evelynn, to be honest I'd rather have the mana regen back, trading it for higher cost on her skills, but also higher damage on her skills (she's too item reliant, her Q deals near to no damage, all her burst is stacked on her E with lich bane) (and yes I know people will say "BuT wE dOn'T nEeD MoRe DamAgE", this is my personnal opinion)

For Akali, she's not really an assassin anymore imo, she falls more into the "fighter" or "diver" class, and yes she does need the sustain , which is already quite difficult to get in prolonged fights (try playing her, you'll understand why)

Rengar dunno, his W doesn't really make sense, I'd also like the old simple healing back, and not this Tahm Kench like active

On the other hand, I find most AD assassins way too safe with a "free out of jail" button Zed W, or R recast Talon E (and sometimes R) Ekko R and most hit their power spike once they get item 3147, means even if the guy lost his lane, he can still manage to 100-0 a let's say 5/0 ADC, or a 5/0 mage who didn't buy a defensive item

LTK KoRo1 votes

he can still manage to 100-0 a let's say 5/0 ADC, or a 5/0 mage who didn't buy a defensive item

That's actually fair. Boards do really like a idea of comebacks, why assassin shouldn't be able to comeback IF enemy doesn't respect him? Mages can deal lots of damage from behind when enemy doesn't build any mr. ADCs can do a lot of damage from behind if they're ignored and enemy doesn't build armor. Why assassins should be worse? Are boards basically saying: "if assassin misplays even once in lane he should be out of the game until the very end". That sounds toxic as hell

Beatrice falls3 votes

No, I'm saying that the entire power of a class shouldn't be tied to a single overloaded item

Goodwill4 votes

Whenever I play an assassin I always feel safe when playing them just because I always seem to have an easy escape or just really good sustain.

Daddy Ants4 votes

Assassin's are Low risk, Maximum reward at the moment.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

Gunblade is okay with me. It doesn't heal for a whole lot, and it has nothing to mitigate damage taken. That means anyone using it is still somewhat susceptible to burst.

I'm not as confident that other forms of healing (Rengar W, for example) are great on assassins. Pyke and Eve don't really bother me, tbh, but I won't die on the hill trying to say they are super healthy. I'm legit not sure about those.

The difference, to me, is that Rengar can heal a lot of damage instantly. That makes knowing how to deal with him more difficult during a fight. At least Pyke and Eve have to leave combat to get their health back, so you know what they are doing and when. If Rengar is two or three autos from being dead and I know his damage cds are down, I shouldn't be punished for trying to kill him, imo. If he didn't burst me, he lost. Any health gains after a failed assassination, especially, should be something that allows that assassin to lick their wounds, not come out ahead in the fight.

Lunar Lunacy3 votes

Zed, ahri, leblanc, Fizz, all pretty darn low risk with how mobile they are.

Sohleks2 votes

Yeah. But it's largely the result of the removal defense runes the game had for seasons which the game was balanced around, as overpowered as they were. The way Riot added certain resistance to certain champion classes when season 8 started was not an adequate response. It strikes me as a lazy and inconsiderate response as the defenses a champion needs isn't really tied to what they are. But what the enemies are instead. It was nonsensincal imo compared to an equal amount of each armor/mr to ranged and maybe a bit more for melee.

I'm sure the intention was to decrease time to kill. And I thought it was very funny at first during preseason. But I was like, " they're gonna dial it back... Right? There's no conceivable way they can leave the game in this clown fiesta state for an entire competitive season." But I also thought they wanted to go this way so I am not surprised this small indie game design company did not dial it back at least a little bit. (they opted for bandaid-ing resolve, which wasn't quite the source of the issue)

The resolve tree is not as good as old defense runes. But it also shouldn't it be. Because everyone would be forced to spec defense at least off spec. Which largely kills the system imo. And that is the design flaw with the current rune system. But yet I would still prefer specing boneplate in the off spec for the tryharding because living is op in league of legends.

I don't think we should go back to having the same base defenses as s7 or before though. But somewhere in the middle.

It really shouldn't have taken a whole season to tune that. Unless they just wanted a clown fiesta season to say we had it.

deadlychuck2 votes

They never have... which is part of the core problem, they've always relied on mechanical defense to stay alive, which comes at no gold cost and rarely a power budget cost, when most of their defensive tools frequently double with some form of damage scaling.

The "assassin fantasy" isn't one of an assassin, it's one of a curb stomp or highlight reel. The kind of gameplay that you might naturally get out of building pure damage on another class of champion and carrying a game on a smurf, or the kind of gameplay that removes all of the times you've gotten 1 shot and only shows the times that you "pop off"...

cocacolalips2 votes

No mention of Pyke?

Ffs, the champion has a warmogs for passive and the highest base stats in the game bare none. "Assassin" btw. He is more immovable in lane than a Maokai, go figure.

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

Yet he struggles as a solo laner winrate wise. I did mention him but I also said that he deserved the passive that he has because of him not being able to get any bonus health, additionally regardless if he is an Assassin he is still primarily a Support.

cocacolalips1 votes

yes he is an assassin played in a duo lane and he is still immovable, that's what I said, you can't poke him and you can't kill him (you can try but you are wasting your time and your resources) because he is too fckin tanky. tanky supports like braum, leona or nautilus are a joke in comparison and are easy to push around and out of lane. do you see the problem? how is that not a paradox? an assassin that is much more resistant and durable than actual tanky supports? zzz

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

Which is why you ward the bushes to prevent him from healing. In doing so he would have to walk a decent distance away from lane to get out of sight to heal back up resulting in him loosing xp.

cocacolalips1 votes

it's ineffective unless you can simultaneously freeze the lane in a good spot and ward both lane bushes, the bush river, the tribush river and the enemy turret... which isn't reasonable.

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

While I do agree that it's not a good enough reason, (I know I said this already) but I think he needs that passive that he has because he can't build any health it put's him in risk (as specially now when the game is so bursty and one shot's are everywhere).

Additionally statistic-wise he's considered to be the most balanced champion with a 49.92% Winrate (50% is considered the ideal balance) and 13.79% Pickrate.

I guess the issue with Pyke is learning to play against him better, learning his weak and strong points (similar to Thresh or Blitzcrank). Thresh only really has CC, and no real defensive tools to offer his team besides his W (Lantern), so it's always good to engage on his team-mate first and then target him second. Blitzcrank is somewhat similar to Thresh except for the one thing that he has no utility to offer to his team.

Pyke usually uses his W to start engages (not always but sometimes), if he does use that to your advantage to engage on him because he's more squishier (and he won't be able to escape to heal up any damage that you deal) but try to avoid his CC to not allow him to trigger his Aftershock that will grant him an enormous amount of Resistances, if he does anyway just wait it out as it doesn't last very long and then use all the damage from your abilities on him. Dodging his E is easy, if you don't get pushed towards the side of a wall, you just need to always walk backwards in a left or right direction (depending in which direction he jumped towards you). His Q is somewhat dodge-able due to the animation time, allowing you to have some time to react. His R can be easily countered by things like a (Summoner Spell: Heal) or any other form of healing source if timed right (Redemption).

I hope this is somewhat more reasonable.

cocacolalips1 votes

I'm fine with his win rate and overall playstyle, I just wish he was less non-interactive in lane and I question his identity when clearly some of his strengths overlap with the strengths of an opposite class of champions. Saying he can't build health is iffy because most assassins don't build health anyway and he is still a lot more tanky than a Zed with a Black Cleaver for example.

As far as I'm concerned, any lane with a Pyke is a snoozefest and I know nothing is going to happen and we will simply have to wait for the mid game before starting to play the game, which is probably the opposite of the kind of gameplay an assassin should encourage. No risk, no reward is the gameplay of a tank, not an assassin.

MorganFreemanBot2 votes

Going to go ahead and copy > paste an earlier post of mine:

{quoted}

It's actually the proper way to balance assassins.

Assassins aren't supposed to build tank, but they're still supposed to have survival tools. Giving them mechanics which allow them to weave in and out of fights, but still melt if locked down and focused, is EXACTLY the way assassins should play.

FurriesAreHot2 votes

Thing is, when you have the highest burst, the best engage, and the best disengage/sustain, we have a problem.

MorganFreemanBot1 votes

{quoted}

Thing is, when you have the highest burst, the best engage, and the best disengage/sustain, we have a problem.

You're absolutely right.

Fortunately, that doesn't describe a single assassin.

Malphite, Naut, and Leona have engage potential; because they can grab and lock a single enemy in place, or else apply enough multi target CC to allow your team to beat their face in without hope of escape.

What assassins have is target access. They can come in from the side and gain access to the target they want easily, but they don't lock that person (or multiple targets down) to let the team gain access to them.

Alistar, Braum, and Sion have disengage; they have the ability to force targets away from their team / apply heavily punishing ground-based CC effects which lets your team open up considerable distance on any would-be attackers, letting them disengage.

What assassins have is limited CC tools. Usually a short duration slow, and maybe a contextual root, which allows them to stick the target they want in place for enough time to hurt them.

Aatrox, Warwick, and Soraka have sustain. They bring the ability to heal themselves (in Soraka's case, an ally) through heavy amounts of damage taken; requiring some combination of multi-person focus, well used hard CC, and grevious wounds before they'll succumb.

What (some) assassins have is short-term survival tools. Pyke's design is almost perfect, what with how he's rewarded (by staying alive) for weaving in and out of fights. Rengar can partially heal back damage taken over a short window, but other than that doesn't 'sustain' much of anything. Ekko can reset the clock, if he's not hard CC'd.

The only valid point you have is assassins having the highest burst. That's to be expected, and in some cases not even true.

EmpressOfBeauty2 votes

I like to think Evelynn and Katarina are high risk and high reward. It's hard to cpme back with them once behind

GripaAviara2 votes

It's hard to cpme back with them once behind

Pretty much every champion not late game carry

Serika Zero2 votes

Akali is the problem? Eve is the problem?

HAVE YOU TAKEN A LOOK AT ZED? RIOT'S FAVORITE BOY ? when it comes to assassins. Their "star", "how assassins should be" character. Together with LeBlank.

What about them is consistent? HIGH MOBILITY AND NO RISK

BLIGHTBRINGER2 votes

I would of mentioned him but I would be downvoted by more than half of the community in doing so. I gave up on trying to argue when it comes to discussing Zed's state of balance.

Serika Zero2 votes

my point is just. In other games. Assassins are generally the class of high risk, high reward. In lol that's not the game, in the view of the riot team, assassins are characters that can easily go in and out of fight.

Which i personally think its a heavily flawed philosophy or view of a class. Assassins to strong? they can easily dive and kill your members an get out without any counterplay available, which is why they are one of the few classes to beach 80% ban rate. Assassins are to weak? they don't get picked, anything is better Assassins are playable and balanced? still not picked, you'd better pick a mage or adc or at worse, fighter.

simply because, their purpose of class is: kill your enemy. and if they can't do that with ease, risk must be there in order to balance things out and punish bad engages. But riot looooooves the :easy: to get in and out, which kills the risk

HJTBB1 votes

what part of throwing a small fluffy kitten into 5 people for damage is low risk the part of assassins that makes them assassins is the fact that they have to blow all their cooldowns, escapes, etc, to kill 1 person. when a zed wants you dead, he has to throw himself at you and hope you didn't buy a stopwatch when a rengar wants you dead, he has to throw himself at you and hope you didn't buy a stopwatch when an evelynn wants you dead, she has to throw herself at you and hope you didn't buy a stopwatch just buy a fucking stopwatch. it's 600 gold. come on.

Automated Riven4 votes

Umm. If zed is 'hoping' you didn't do something he is terribly bad. Considering that clicking on the champion and pressing tab will tell you precisely that information.

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