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@Riot, I don't even know what the hell you're trying to do with Shen anymore.

Melledoneus··47 votes·2,796 views

The rework I can forgive, since he's at least playable to a degree, besides the crappy base stats.

Then you nerfed his Q, which I think is fine because itbwas too strong on PBE.

Then you nerfed the health regen meant to replace his previous sustain, negating any semblance of Shen surviving a poke lane.

Then you promised to fix the E hitbox bug and never did. And you still haven't told us why. Shen's only CC in his kit is bugged, people. What kind of tank has one CC that can be easily canceled, bugs out 8-10% of the time you use it, and has the shittiest sized hitbox that is inconsistent as well as unclear?

Then you saw him being played in LCS, so you gutted his Q damage, the one thing letting him be a Dark Horse pick in the jungle and somewhat hold his own in top lane. You also nerfed his passive shield duration, hitting his laning phase and jungling EVEN HARDER.

After that you finally got tired of us complaining about him having lower stats than most squishy mage supports in the game and slightly buffed his tank stats to be on par with Anivia and Lissandra.

And now that he's finally seeing play again, you assured us his ult will see changes to make him less impactful in LCS and more impactful in Solo Queue. Then you went back on your promise and FUCKING NERFED HIS PASSIVE AGAIN.

What. The. Shit.

I'm usually on your side when you balance Shen, Riot, but this is just unexplainable. Your patch notes for every nerf on Shen were cookie cutter bullshit versions of when you nerfed Azir into the gutter, and we have seen no end in sight to this bullshit.

Please, for the love of all that is holy and sacred,

#What are you doing?

I want answers. I want Meddler, or any of the balance team members, hell send an intern if you have to, and tell me what the hell you're doing to the one last reason i play this god-forsaken game that gets dragged deeper into the depths of Dante's Inferno by shit like this.

Tl;dr Riot wtf are you doing with Shen pls tell me

65 Comments

Teridax6813 votes

At this point I'm not quite sure either. Like, the issue that keeps being mentioned is that Shen is much stronger in pro play than in normals, yet players have had enough time with the champion to point out many pain points that could help answer this: increasing his tiny E hitbox would likely shorten the skill gap some, as would nerfing his ult or improving his baseline shielding rate, but instead a lot of his power shifts have been focused on his base stats (which are still fairly crappy for a tank), and now on his shield cooldown refund, which will risk breaking his late-game flow.

At this point, I think it's likely that Shen needs another rework, as many of the mechanics baked into him just haven't worked out, but even just with his current kit, there are a lot of conditionals that just don't need to exist while he has such a high performance discrepancy. Making his kit more consistent across mastery levels, instead of just nerfing and buffing him to the rhythm of LCS, would allow him to be balanced much more sustainably in the long run.

Melledoneus8 votes

You're clearly more qualified to work on that balance team than the people there right now.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Teridax683 votes

{quoted}

You're clearly more qualified to work on that balance team than the people there right now.

I don't agree with that, as I think the balance team's job is significantly harder than it looks, and in spite of their shortcomings they're doing a pretty decent job overall. However, I do question several of their decisions, and I think it comes down to the balance team valuing efficiency over larger-scale design. I'm pretty sure at least someone noticed that continually nerfing Rek'Sai's damage and scalings would move her away from being a diver and into being a vanguard, but it was likely the most effective thing they could touch in such limited time. It's likely that balancing Shen properly would take more time than just a single patch cycle, and that's unfortunately not time the balance team can afford to wait when he's dominating the LCS right now.

Imperial Japan1 votes

I'm pretty sure communication is what makes Shen so OP in the LCS. I don't think Shen really is demanding in terms of mechanically skill or that it is the reason for the OP-UP of LCS vs Solo queue

Teridax681 votes

That's true, communication plays a big part in Shen's performance, but I think so does map awareness, which ties into that. I think one of his design issues right now is that he has a pretty crappy in-match learning curve: during the first 5 levels he plays almost like a pure duelist, focusing on maneuvering his sword around his opponent and out-trading them, and so ends up being completely focused on his own lane. Once he gets his ult, though, suddenly he's asked to care about everyone else on this huge map, with no smooth transition in-between. Experienced Shen players can make the jump a bit better, and players in premade teams can just call for an ult whenever, but in solo queue, Shen players end up having to shift their mentality completely, which doesn't always work out. This is one of the reasons why I think he might need another rework (his spirit sword adds mechanical complexity he doesn't need, and makes him focus on the wrong part of his gameplay), so that he might transition more naturally into a global protector.

Imperial Japan2 votes

Without the mechanical complexity of the clunky ass sword (although it seems a bit satisfying now especially with Q having tiamat) Riot would deem Shen as "boring" or having the "lack of interactivity". I suggested his q be like of Akali's where there's a second prock and his W (old shield and old q ofc) having HP scaling but Riot just went for the "big plays" Shen rework. I still honestly like old Shen better but his current form is okay too. Anyways nostalgia behind, that just means that the player is too focused on micro to take on the macro. That has really nothing to do with Shen as -AlThOuGh- he has to dodge and weave his blade, there's no excuse for allowing yourself to look at the map every 5 seconds or so. (and viewing other champs maybe every 10-15 secs). That aside, although your explanation makes sense, I don't believe that that is the case. Look at Jungle Shen. This is the Shen I main but the fact is Jungle Shen has an even lower win rate than that of top lane and when Shen is Jungle, the whole game is focused intensely on macro with almost no micro involved. Therefor I believe that the only difference of solo queue and competitive play with Shen is the Communication and the macro play which does not tie into any of his mechanics.

Edit: I do realize that Shen Jungle has flaws that other junglers don't have but I'd like to state that he also gives the enemy a surprise and that he has pretty good sustain. (although his pre-rework self had amazing sustain.)

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

Without the mechanical complexity of the clunky ass sword (although it seems a bit satisfying now especially with Q having tiamat) Riot would deem Shen as "boring" or having the "lack of interactivity".

This is true, as it was a reason cited by Riot for reworking him, and objectively speaking I think the old Shen was fairly boring in some respects (his Q was just free poke with a bit of sustain). He did need changes, but what he needed was a rework that emphasized his strategic qualities, as I think Shen is a strategic champion first and foremost. Instead, he was reworked into a more mechanically complex top laner, and given a new object to take up his attention when he already has to devote above-average amounts of it to his teammates. Effectively, one of the reasons why his rework created even more of a discrepancy between his solo queue and coordinated performance is because it messed up the mentality of playing Shen, by diverting some his attention towards his magic sword and his dueling combo, and away from his allies.

While I think Shen should always be a great top laner (and perhaps even a good mid laner), I agree that it would also make a lot of sense for him to work as a jungler or even a support, since both of those roles are already heavier on strategy, and encourage the player to pay attention to their team. Another reason why I dislike the spirit sword mechanic is because, while the thing's built to allow him to aid allies, it's fairly clunky in doing so, and often the more efficient method is to just try to taunt an enemy and drag the thing through them to cut off their escape. As a warden, Shen should be trying to intercept enemy damage against his allies and use his shield to mitigate it, and the gameplay should always revolve around moving to the rhythm of his own allies, not to his sword. In fact, I suspect one of the reasons why Shen has such crappy base stats is because of his ability to completely negate basic attacks for a duration, a feature more appropriate on a light fighter than a tank. Taking out his sword and focusing his gameplay on interacting with allies would not only make him a more functional top laner, but could also improve his gameplay as a support and a counter-ganking jungler.

Imperial Japan2 votes

Jup Jup Jup, fuck his new w. I work with it because it is "useful" but i still hate it

Girard9 votes

[deleted]

Arakadia2 votes

And they gutted Ap Shen. While I didn't play it often, it was fun.

Melledoneus5 votes

For fuck's sake he was so versatile he could go RIVER SHEN.

RIVER. That's not even a real position and it just worked.

Baron of Bread1 votes

It only kind of worked, and he wasn't alone in being able to be played river.

New Shen is also reasonably capable in his old niche roles. He doesn't provide sustain for an ADC but he can negate an enemy ADC's DPS for a bit with the dodge field. His jungle clear is faster now (albeit at lower health) and you can still run around river like a gank happy Phreak.

Imperial Japan1 votes

Same (泣)

THE RlVER KlNG5 votes

I mained Shen in S5 before Tahm Kench was released, Shen and Vlad

I don't play him anymore :(

Dragon Master3 votes

As a Vlad main I feel your pain. If you're not a staple pick or a crowd favorite and you appear in the LCS it's a death sentence.

Arakadia4 votes

I miss old Vlad and Old Shen so much... Q_Q.

Especially SS vlads old E look.

Bisaknosp2 votes

yea well shen is too good in coordinated teams not just in lcs i dont mind them nerfing him

Melledoneus8 votes

I was fine with changes to his ult that they promised us because it would fix that problem. Instead we got more nerfs that won't do shit to make him less influential in the LCS, only shittier in non-pro games.

Teridax683 votes

You're right that Shen is too good in coordinated teams, but that means he needs nerfs to his pro play strength, not to his dueling potential. Shen is already about alright in solo queue, and this nerf will make him worse there without addressing the strengths that are making him so good in LCS. Given his current kit, the better ability to nerf would be his ult, since that's the ability that's allowing him to snowball lanes too hard. Allowing the channel to be interrupted by damage, for example, could allow similarly coordinated teams to shut him down without affecting his performance too hard elsewhere.

Imperial Japan1 votes

I agree but I don't believe Shen taking damage interrupting jg is ult is good. Especially if you're jg Shen where you may have to channel ult while taking a camp

Teridax681 votes

That's a fair point, perhaps the channel should only be interrupted by champion damage to avoid annoying cases like those (especially if Shen goes Sunfire Cape/Cinderhulk); the core intent is basically to allow the enemy team, especially the enemy top laner, to interrupt Shen if he tries to gank bot.

Imperial Japan1 votes

If put on PBE it may be a cool idea. Only if Rito agrees to revert it if it proves too detrimental

Skorch2 votes

Man Melle is straight PISSED today. I love it

Melledoneus7 votes

Me too. It feels good to get this off my chest and just be honest to myself and everyone else.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

We got you Melle, just like we got your flippin ninja. :)

No matter what.

Melledoneus1 votes

Glad I got you on my side.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Not a problem, you're one of the funniest guys here, and I'd hate to see you go; just so you know I still haven't forgotten Zed and Shen's little Fruit Ninja Adventure. I promise I'll have it out this week.

Melledoneus1 votes

Hey, don't worry about it at all. I like suspense. :)

Arakadia2 votes

As a Shen fanatic, I'm so thankful you made this post. :3

I don't think I could do something this glorious.

Dynamiku Entry2 votes

Riot "We're a successful and smart company. We are the best. Fuck you give us more of your money pleb scum" - 2017

Imperial Japan2 votes

I remember arguing with you about the Shen changes, you see why now? Lol. All they had to do was make his w shield scale with HP. Anyways, that aside because it's irrelevant to the topic but...

What the fuck IS riot trying to do with Shen? If they're confused they can just consult Shen Mains like you and to an extent myself. (Sidenote: I still miss his dmg reduction. It was rewarded for landing his e and even Galio has a dmg reduction > taunt move so idk why Shen just can't have it)

Failog2 votes

Would love to see them respond. But they won't. You are asking for weak beta males to have a backbone and confront harsh, and well thought out, criticism. You are asking way too much for these types of men.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Isn't the passive shield change a buff to early levels?

Melledoneus26 votes

That's the time of the game when you need the lower cooldown the least. Early game Shen will only periodically go for trades (usually revolving around the near-20 second cooldown on his E and W because his stats are atrociously low for a tank), and late game he (relatively) rapid fires his Q and passive shield.

This is a straight up nerf that Shen did not need.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

is it because he's an energy base champ? that's what i gathered from that. essentially due to him having controlled limited resources he's never able to do a combo chain and higher cooldowns just make it worse?

Melledoneus3 votes

Even if he was resourceless it'd be the same. His cooldowns early game are really high.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

oh okay. so cdr doesnt matter at a 3 second spell cast. then compound that with energy restraints and you end up with a champ that still has to rely on his auto attacks and resistances more than his abilities.

Melledoneus1 votes

You forget the part where his Q has a pretty high cooldown still before 9, and everything else has a super high cooldown.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

are you saying "high cooldown" as in

180 seconds

or

2 seconds.

because a high cooldown cost means it costs more for a cooldown to activate, but the way you're stating it i assumed you mean a high cooldown activation which means that the activation threshold is higher allowing for a shorter cooldown.

sorry for the misunderstanding.

Melledoneus1 votes

Shen has near-20 second cooldowns on his E and W, his most potent tools to win trades. His Q has a 6 second cooldown, but the energy cost is high if he spams it without using it. His passive has a 10 second cooldown as well, meaning he has to sit back for a bit and wait for his cooldowns to come back before he goes for a short trade and backs off.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

oh then that's the exact opposite of what i thought you meant. you're referring to cooldown costs. gotcha.

i feel like shen's problem is his Q's interaction. it only slows those who run away from him and i feel like it doesnt give enough energy back to make it worth using. since shens stats scale from ability power and hp he has little room to work around in order to grant himself physical damage for his basic attacks among other things. the E dash doesnt do a lot of damage either because it scales with bonus HP.

perhaps the right way to go would be granting shen energy back for blocking a champions attacks with his W instead of for his E and Q interactions. that way shen could leave his sword in one place instead of being forced to Q it to himself through multiple enemies and could then use his E to taunt people into his dodge circle.

the amount of energy cost for the W would be the balancing factor for shen and then he could slow with his Q regardless of the way an enemy is running.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

To be fair, nearly every argument you make is on the grounds that it makes his lane weak. But that's kinda the thing about Shen is he's supposed to be a weak laner but be able to snowball bot/mid really hard

Teridax684 votes

I disagree with this. In fact, I think Shen is meant to be a reasonably strong laning duelist who then turns into a warden at level 6. His ult can turn fights around, but will also ensure that he will lose a lot of farm, probably even a tower, in doing so. Shen scales into a hypertank thanks to his shield, but that's also when his dueling potential ends up falling off hard, so he never ends up with too much dueling power and team utility at the same time. Really, the issue isn't that Shen is too strong a duelist, but that he ends up being really OP in the hands of a coordinated team, even if he's already not that great in solo queue. Basically, this nerf just targets the wrong part of his kit.

Nymzo1 votes

Can't they just... not make it global until level 16?

That would been a nice nerf instead of everything they have done so far.

Baron of Bread2 votes

That would be a brutal nerf. At that point once Galio's VGU comes out Shen would be a worse Galio.

Xonra4 votes

I mean, that is already going to be the case :P

Nymzo1 votes

I don't see how you would want to nerf the ult then.

The cd is already long, and would probably not get rif of the problem if we increase its cd.

And nerfing the shield is pointless, it's already small level 6 and would also not get rid of the problem.

Baron of Bread1 votes

If I had to nerf the ult I would look at making the delay on Shen's arrival scale down with ranks in the ult, starting at a value higher than the current one. It would give enemies more time to respond to Shen's imminent arrival and make it so Shen can't wait as long to see if he needs to ult.

I don't know how well that nerf would work, but it worked pretty well for nerfing TP.

LSmaster161 votes

Definitely agree with you here. Hitting his ability to do damage doesn't help solve the actual problem of him in the lcs and makes him want to play more passive in lane which was the main issue the rework wanted to fix (and imo succeeded though I know some people dislike the spirit blade). Any thoughts on good ways they could nerf his ultimate?

Lux Tizer1 votes

Honestly just nerf his fucking ult already so I can have my favorite champion back, I miss him being playable. He's the reason I came back to this game after quitting so many times, and they fucked him up so hard. My biggest question is just Riot: Why?

Why do you constantly pump out broken champs with gamebreaking kits when you leave some champions in disrepair for YEARS at a time? If someone's actually as garbage as Aatrox or Kalista for that long, do they technically even count as part of the roster anymore? I'd say there's a bit of a fallacy to this game having 140 characters if only 40 of them are playable at a time, and the rest of them are pretty much dumpster F- tier.

If a champion is broken, DON'T just remove all their power and sit on them for years until you find out how to fix the dumb-as-shit problem that YOU created.

Also, don't give Shen a stupid floating stick to drag through people. Honestly just re-rework him again. They said they'd keep him somewhat close to his original theme, and they absolutely didn't. Just rip the bandaid all the way off at this point.

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