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Honestly: I just DON'T like the Sona mini-rework in the long run

chipndip1··4 votes·529 views

Like, hear me out, here, because it isn't just "muh win rate". If anything, that's the last thing I'd complain about.

If we look at it holistically, what were Sona's main issues, game play wise, before that mini-rework? She's way too simple and she lacks any variance or skill expression save her ult and basic fundamentals like positioning and timing (which I'm going to italicize for any of you freelo abusers that are about to come out with the "muh Dymond-level positioning" excuse for the 5000th time). Ultimately, her game play is bland to a point where you'd be hard-pressed to find someone worse in that regard (Teemo...Tryndamere...Kayle...that's all I got), and she's pretty much lacking in any real strategic niche or game play gimmick/angle that you can recognize her by outside of "big ass titties" and "OMG DA DMG! SONA ONE-SHOT LICH BANE/LUDEN'S PEGGING SESSION MONTAGE!!! (SWITCH TO BLUE'S CLUES IF YOUR PARENTS WALK IN)."

So Sona mains got riled up in a pretty explosive way on the boards once or twice (including me) and Riot mini-reworks the champ. Now, I'm asking here: What did that mini-rework actually do?

Her game-play, which is already brain-dead as hell, was made even simpler. The champion half-way plays itself. So even if I see someone that's not that good at the champ, if Sona has her item 3504 core item 3174 and a item 3070 little more, I'm pretty much done for, anyway, even if I know they're not good, simply because it's nearly impossible to mess up playing this champion. Nothing's there outside of League fundamentals to set apart someone that's letting the champ carry them and someone that actually plays this champ. If I land a double/triple bubble with Nami and save my carry, or I predict a dash/blink/teleport with it, shit feels REAL good, even if no one else sees. On Sona, all I'm doing is slapping buttons. Riot announces they're gonna do work on Sona, goes through multiple iterations of that work...and settle on "URF-style" Sona? So my skills and decision making matter even less than just slapping the buttons off cd like a bonobo, when the initial problem was that her lack of skill expression on top of other things was so extreme that they had to leave her in a less-than-desirable state to begin with? The hell? I'd irl "?" spam the hell out of whoever was in charge of that mini-rework if I could. Like legit flood his house's yard with question marks.

Speaking of decision making, WHAT decision making? Some people will come out to defend her on this front saying "Muh Powerch-" yeah, stop it. I can't choose who to hit with my Q, so if I'm out of range of either one or both enemies I'll just auto-push the wave when I don't want to. I can't choose who I want to heal, so if someone's in danger of being burst down or peppered, but a completely safe ally is in range with less health, my heal goes off into the yonder-realm and not where I need it. There's nothing to do with E except decide if you want to take it at level 4 or level 8, and her ult is a line ult with way too long of a cd for how static it is in usability in modern day League of Legends. Rakan's out here chain cc'ing full teams from out of the fog of war 2k units away, Nami's out here throwing waves out from any angle she desires, watching it roll through teams from a folding chair in a bush, while I have to burn flash if I want to catch 2 people sometimes. Worst part? Rakan's ult has the shortest cd out of the 3, and Nami's ult is also shorter than Sona's, while being safer to use, until LEVEL FREAKING 16.

Also, I remember CLEARLY saying "Sona's way too gold-dependent" on quite a few threads back then. Why the hell did you guys double down on that, of all things, for a support champion!? That shit feels AWFUL. Legit awful. Being a scaling support like Taric, Janna, or Rakan is one thing. Having my late-game power be tied to something I'm supposed to not need while I'm watching Rakan and Taric turn up on a budget is a totally different thing...and it's not a good thing. To boot, Sona's more exp dependent than before because she has a more potent passive tied to her ult levels. Once again, WHY is this the route we chose to take, here? This isn't a game play niche. This is generally being shit early and generally being unstoppable late. This is the EXACT reason you guys wanted to change, and then had to revert, Kog'Maw (no defining niche, just really bad and then really good), and we're just slapping Sona into the same boat? Did anyone think that through?

Alright, so what DID the mini-rework accomplish now that we're done airing out what it didn't accomplish? Well, it made her more oppressive to low elo, but after the changes Sona hovered the same high elo win rates (not even the point of my discontent, but just making a point at all, here). The main thing that gave Sona strength in higher elos wasn't the mini-rework, but item 3174 changing itemization to actually item 3504 suit her desire for ap item 3098. Then it went up to THIS point when they changed itemization to item 3301 feed her desire for gold item 3301. So they basically just put Sona in a state where she's harder to balance, which we're seeing right now. Tada?

At this point, I'd invite CertaintlyT to come in with that big ass "CertainlyT-Gonna-Fuck-Shit-Up" mallet of his that I imagine he has when he's coding literally anything LoL related to just get to work on this champ. I don't like the mini-rework they did for Sona. Time has made things worse.

Short Version: Before the mini-rework, Sona lacked game play depth and was a gold sink. Riot tries to fix this by doubling down on BOTH these faults. I don't like it. At all. If Karma mains can not like their rework, I can say this one was trash, too...cause it was. If I wanted an inflated win rate, I would just play the champion when she's busted, not almost every day since I picked her up about two years ago.

25 Comments

Winterwings3 votes

At this point, I'd invite CertaintlyT to come in with that big ass "CertainlyT-Gonna-Fuck-Shit-Up" mallet of his that I imagine he has when he's coding literally anything LoL related to just get to work on this champ.

You get "+Respect" for this one. [sg-kiko]

chipndip12 votes

I mean, name one singular thing he's actually known for that didn't cause a commotion, good or bad?

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

I mean, name one singular thing he's actually known for that didn't cause a commotion, good or bad?

Warwick was pretty good. He was never really a 'problem'... theres worse designers out there, CT is just the excuse a lot of people fall back on.

chipndip12 votes

Even WW caused a commotion, but it was a good one. People were gushing all over that guy.

Overall, he's a necessary evil genius to Riot Games. Batman's not the same without the Joker, a relationship the Arkham Asylum franchise really fleshed out and wrapped its story-telling around. CertainlyT is like a necessary headache to League with that reference in mind, just not nearly as dark.

Winterwings1 votes

Let's not forget, the next champ coming out is his design once again (Mage version of Yasuo from what i hear... Oh boy), so buckle up for a joy ride. :^)

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure Northwing,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AqTlP0m1,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-10T20:17:15.381+0000)

Let's not forget, the next champ coming out is his design once again (Mage version of Yasuo from what i hear... Oh boy), so buckle up for a joy ride. :^)

You mean the one that was "leaked" and then never came out? Or you mean Kayn?

DariusDemiurge2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure Northwing,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AqTlP0m1,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-10T20:17:15.381+0000)

Let's not forget, the next champ coming out is his design once again (Mage version of Yasuo from what i hear... Oh boy), so buckle up for a joy ride. :^)

In before aoe shield that negates all melee attacks for 4 seconds. Or something.

Pika3101 votes

I said the same thing a while ago. I'm glad to see that others are coming to the same conclusion I did. Not that Rito will actually LISTEN to us.

[zombie-brand-clap]

Paroe2 votes

@thread A lot of the problem with sona is that riot doesnt seem to want enchanters to actually enchant and want them as generic "i heal or shield" supports. Sona is a FANTASTIC foundation for a real enchanter champion, but shes not allowed to be anything more than a heal slave with higher mana costs than most real mages.

Sona could use a real rework into an actual enchanter. Her original concept is great - using it to its fullest would make sona a niche support.... ... That being said, ive always advocated sona being a minion mancer. The loose rework i suggest turns sona into a lichbane focused champion whose entire niche is small buffs over long periods (Like an enchanter SHOULD be in the first place) with a great deal of lane pressure.

Passive: Sonas music plays until changed or sona is silenced or hard CCd. The range of her abilities increases by 100 at levels 6/11/16 (for 300 total increased range).

Q: Active: Sonas next basic attack directs allied minions and grants allies 20% increased movement speed toward the targeted enemy. Persistant effect: Allies within range are granted an additional 20/30/40/50/60+0.3AP as magical damage on hit.

W: Active: Sona shields all allies within range for 40/80/120/160/200+0.5AP damage for 3 seconds. Persistant effect: Allies within range are healed for 8/10/12/14/16+0.2AP per second.

E: Active: Sonas base movement speed is increased by 25/40/55/70/85 for 2 seconds. Allies movement speeds are increased by half that value. Persistant effect: Allies within range slow enemies by 5% with their basic attacks, stacking up to 10 times. Halved for ranged allies.

R: No change because its already a decent ability with more than enough power.

chipndip12 votes

I don't see why you'd have a chunk of Sona's overall strength as a champ...tied to the easiest things to one-shot in the game? Something that can't even follow her into the jg or river? Minion-mancing champions are usually tough ones to settle in the game. This would be especially true for someone minion-mancing actual minions instead of their own npc. That's probably a horrible idea.

Also, Riot doesn't like the thought of auras or "stat-stick" abilities. Although they're fooling me rather well atm given Sona's current state of buying some items and bashing your face into your keys until you win, if this is to be taken seriously, you can't give her auras in a rework or we'd be back where we started.

Lastly, I think it's high time to distance Sona away from auto-attacks. That type of clumsy positioning quirk has done nothing but hold Sona back since they reworked her the first time. Not saying she can't ever AA, but see how Karma doesn't need to AA more than it's a decent option? That's the approach that should be taken here at most if you ask me.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I don't see why you'd have a chunk of Sona's overall strength as a champ...tied to the easiest things to one-shot in the game? Something that can't even follow her into the jg or river? Minion-mancing champions are usually tough ones to settle in the game. This would be especially true for someone minion-mancing actual minions instead of their own npc. That's probably a horrible idea.

Also, Riot doesn't like the thought of auras or "stat-stick" abilities. Although they're fooling me rather well atm given Sona's current state of buying some items and bashing your face into your keys until you win, if this is to be taken seriously, you can't give her auras in a rework or we'd be back where we started.

Lastly, I think it's high time to distance Sona away from auto-attacks. That type of clumsy positioning quirk has done nothing but hold Sona back since they reworked her the first time. Not saying she can't ever AA, but see how Karma doesn't need to AA more than it's a decent option? That's the approach that should be taken here at most if you ask me.

It turns sona into a champion who is capable of solo laning without being broken. She would be a pressure support - perfect for safe metas (such as caitlyn/jhin/varus) AND ultra damage metas (like we have now). Even when behind she would be useful because her kit is functional on a support budget. Minions are also quite durable. Especially once you consider the minion-mancer rework i suggested includes a passive heal for them; Its not a big heal exactly, but over time it will be HUGE. combined with the Q which gives minions an onhit, any allied minion who kills an enemy minion would reward you with the gold (which dissuades keeping your Q up in the support role unless youre pushing and gives you ability options besides "Max this first in all sitations" she has now).

The persistent effect sona makes the most sense thematically and from a gameplay standpoint... I mean, if HoTs can do lucio why cant riot do sona?

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

It turns sona into a champion who is capable of solo laning without being broken. She would be a pressure support - perfect for safe metas (such as caitlyn/jhin/varus) AND ultra damage metas (like we have now). Even when behind she would be useful because her kit is functional on a support budget.

  • Sona needs to be a functional and rewarding support before she's anything of a mid laner. She's a support first and foremost. This is the same thing that happened with Lulu in solo lanes. She doesn't need to be mid.

  • What about temporarily redirecting meat shields provides the type of cover required against a dive or assassination attempt that she can't do BETTER as she is right now, which is already poor for doing exactly that? Think more holistically.

Minions are also quite durable. Especially once you consider the minion-mancer rework i suggested includes a passive heal for them; Its not a big heal exactly, but over time it will be HUGE. combined with the Q which gives minions an onhit, any allied minion who kills an enemy minion would reward you with the gold (which dissuades keeping your Q up in the support role unless youre pushing and gives you ability options besides "Max this first in all sitations" she has now).

Yes...they are quite durable...at level 1. But we're thinking beyond level one, here. The entire idea is poor, I'm sorry to tell you.

Besides, think on Malz, Heimer, and Zyra. Minion-mancing is usually oppressive if not rendered half-way useless. I really don't want conversation to derail into "Should Sona control animated clothes into doing her bidding". It's not a strong concept for her or any champion.

The persistent effect sona makes the most sense thematically and from a gameplay standpoint... I mean, if HoTs can do lucio why cant riot do sona?

HotS is a different game from a different company with different balancing philosophies. Sona HAD persistent effects. Riot intentionally removed them. You can't magically suggest to add them back out of nowhere.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

  • Sona needs to be a functional and rewarding support before she's anything of a mid laner. She's a support first and foremost. This is the same thing that happened with Lulu in solo lanes. She doesn't need to be mid.

I never said a thing about mid lane - just solo laning. The reason why lulu was strong in a solo lane was because she was extremely safe with decent damage - shes still a capable laner, just less oppressive. Also, "ITS A SUPPORT" isnt a reason why a champion should not be capable of solo laning. Its a shitty argument that hurts the game as a whole because it stifles any creativity. Enchanters, for example, should be about BUFFs not "i heal/shield with some hard CC every now and again".

  • What about temporarily redirecting meat shields provides the type of cover required against a dive or assassination attempt that she can't do BETTER as she is right now, which is already poor for doing exactly that? Think more holistically.

Do you not know how much damage minions actually do? Because let me tell you - the hurt. Theres a reason why early game you dont really want to fight someone in their own wave. And directing the minions means you have a lot of potential damage.

Yes...they are quite durable...at level 1. But we're thinking beyond level one, here. The entire idea is poor, I'm sorry to tell you. Ah... No? Casters are meh sure but the melee minions are fairly durable. And combine them with a heal, your lane pressure would be MASSIVE. You would have the shove problem though (which imo is a balance thing)

Besides, think on Malz, Heimer, and Zyra. Minion-mancing is usually oppressive if not rendered half-way useless. I really don't want conversation to derail into "Should Sona control animated clothes into doing her bidding". It's not a strong concept for her or any champion.

Your opinion here. The rework i suggested is based on lane pressure by buffing lane minions and providing small team oriented buffs over a large area. Further, the reason why other pet based champions arent fun to play against is because the pets have their own damage IN ADDITION to the champions own burst. The suggested rework has very little damage on its own (owing to the fact that its an ENCHANTER. Its whole concept is "i am the buff").

HotS is a different game from a different company with different balancing philosophies. Sona HAD persistent effects. Riot intentionally removed them. You can't magically suggest to add them back out of nowhere.

Sona had persistent effects and they were removed because riot didnt like the "invisible power" due to them "being hard to see". You know how to fix that? Blue effects. Healing effects. Purple effects. The excuse they gave was a token - in reality they had no idea how to balance sona so they turned her into a utilityslave.

As for "different games different companies"... Who cares? Riots stolen lots of things from blizzard and even other titles in the same genre. When riot has shown their propensity for theft of ideas anything can go onto the table. Lucio is balanced and, most of all, FUN in a way sona cannot be unless what she is now is scrapped entirely or riot actually defines what they want an enchanter to be. In any other game a buff class is not "i heal and have maybe one or two buffs and hard" its "my entire kit is focused on buffs and i have a slow at most".

IxtaliKing2 votes

Short Version: Before the mini-rework, Sona lacked game play depth and was a gold sink. Riot tries to fix this by doubling down on BOTH these faults. I don't like it. At all. If Karma mains can not like their rework, I can say this one was trash, too...cause it was. If I wanted an inflated win rate, I would just play the champion when she's busted, not almost every day since I picked her up about two years ago.

Lol.

chipndip12 votes

Well thanks for adding to the conversation.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Would you have appreciated if i had ?

chipndip12 votes

I imagine you're about to open a huge can of "You're just a baby/You're whining over nothing", but even then, yes.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Nope, actually I agreed with pretty much everything you were saying. I just find it funny that you bring Karma up to validate your position at the end like that. Almost as if Karma mains are privileged to be able to complain about her rework. Karma's rework was a completely different level of trash compared to Sona's.

chipndip11 votes

I didn't even realize it came off that way. I just thought I'd try to relate it to a similar level of "screwed up support reworks". Like, sure she's functionally better in one realm or another, but people still don't like the Karma rework. It's the same concept, but this time it's Sona being good in solo queue, but the rework still sucked.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Tbh Riot just currently has a bad formula for Enchanters in general, with Nami, Bard and hybrid Taric as exceptions. I think they massively sold Sona short with her rework, but I'd imagine she's a difficult champ to work out. You joke about CertainlyT but I honestly believe if there is a Rioter who could unlock her gameplay fantasy, it would be him.

chipndip14 votes

That CertainlyT thing wasn't really a joke. It was humorous, but I meant that.

IxtaliKing2 votes

It's settled then, lets petition to make CertainlyT rework Sona xD

Cyrosi1 votes

As a relatively new player, I don't think Sona's bad. I would just really like it if I could choose at least one of the targets of all my skills. Sometimes the person with the lowest health needs the heal less than someone who is about to be attacked. I feel like that might also justify her mana costs a little more. Maybe I just don't have enough practice with Sona, but I feel like her 'Q' ability and 'E' ability do too little for how much they cost.

Even with the hat item 3089, and a full build I feel like her 'Q' doesn't do that much damage for what it costs. Compared to Soraka, whose 'Q' does only slightly less damage to everything in that area, heals Soraka, and can potentially heal whoever Soraka heals as well, I just feel like it's lackluster. I know that Sona does really well in lategame when everyone is together, because her arias affect all allies and a few enemies in the area, but even so, I feel like all of her skills (except the ult) are overcosted until that point.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

As a relatively new player, I don't think Sona's bad. I would just really like it if I could choose at least one of the targets of all my skills. Sometimes the person with the lowest health needs the heal less than someone who is about to be attacked. I feel like that might also justify her mana costs a little more. Maybe I just don't have enough practice with Sona, but I feel like her 'Q' ability and 'E' ability do too little for how much they cost.

Oh no, Riot KNOWS that Sona's costs suck per cast. That's why they aimed her at just spamming them incessantly.

Even with the hat item 3089, and a full build I feel like her 'Q' doesn't do that much damage for what it costs. Compared to Soraka, whose 'Q' does only slightly less damage to everything in that area, heals Soraka, and can potentially heal whoever Soraka heals as well, I just feel like it's lackluster. I know that Sona does really well in lategame when everyone is together, because her arias affect all allies and a few enemies in the area, but even so, I feel like all of her skills (except the ult) are overcosted until that point.

Riot knows THIS, too. They balance her abilities at all levels under the assumption that she'll be effecting 5 people with them. They can't say "Well, you could just botch it, so let's ease up on the cost/increase the reward" because she's so dang easy to work with mechanically. Since there's practically 0 variance in her output, her output per cast needs to be held back on principle. I can't even fault them for it. Last time she was just a few bits out of line last year she was a headache to the whole rift.

Pika3101 votes

I'll repeat myself, I agree with 97% of what you've said here & you already know this by now. As for the 'who' did the 6.14 "rework," that would be RicklessAbandon who deserves that credit (albeit completely negative.) Took me a bit a of digging to remind myself, hopefully one of us will remember for next time.

Personally, I'm tired of the bullshit kit Fearless started with Sona, I HATE the shitty "mini-rework" Rickless built onto it. I just want to see Sona return to original aura-centric design (the fucking bubble shit she has now are NOT AURAS.) I even agree, let's get CetainlyMF-ingT up in here and sledge the OG Sona into something actually playable. I've even suggested it myself before; for all the hate the community gives the man, he actually gets shit done. That's WAY MORE than can be said for the typical Rito a-holes like Meddler, Jag or KateyKhaos who just want to sit back and condescend the playerbase without actually listening to us or even bothering to DO THEIR JOBS.

Again though, I want to further emphasize. I'd like to see CertainlyT's starting base to be OG Sona, the one Guinsoo, Ezreal & Shurelia designed and refined. I don't want anymore of this bullshit Fearless & RicklessAbandon trash. Fearless has NEVER had a successful project in his entire employment at Rito; as a "jungle main," he's screwed over the jungle THREE seasons in a row. How does this guy even have a job? Also, how ironic is it that Fearless publicly stated he "WOULD NOT ABANDON SONA." Then did exactly that, only to have her made even worse 2 years later by somebody with "Abandon" in their name? Is anybody else amused by this?

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