A Look at Past Non-ADC Bot Lanes

ModCaptainMårvelous··70 votes·8,699 views

Considering Riot's goal, I think it's worth mentioning some examples of "successful" bot-lane comps that lack ADCs. Bear in mind, I'm measuring success based on when a large amount of players could run this comp and have it be considered a viable situation. Some of these might be based on feelings but bear in mind that there is precedence for these comps existing, as well as more information about them:

#The Kill Lane

Example Lane Duo: Leona Pantheon /Blitzcrank Rengar /Alistar JarvanIV Main Apperance: Season 2/3, although you'll see them around time and again. Goal: Suppression of enemy ADC Playstyle: Kill lanes were all about smashing an ADC at their weakest. The thought process was that if the ADC couldn't come online, what was the danger of them? Kill lanes were hyper aggressive, often forsaking farm to a degree for a chance at that sweet 300g kill gold. Strengths: Unparalleled Kill Potential. Powerful early game. Snowball heavy. Weaknesses: Weak to poke. Could be mitigated by playing safe. No tower killing potential. Why did it disappear?: Too inconsistent to be a viable counter-lane to the ADC/Support.

#The Reign of Mordekaiser

Example Lane Duo: Mordekaiser and anyone. Main Appearance: Season 5 Worlds. Goal: Get someone not an ADC in bot lane. Playstyle: Winning. No. Seriously. Mordekaiser had stupid advantages. Strengths: XP sharing, strong early game. Dragon control bonuses. Sustain. Damage. No, really, lots of damage. Weaknesses: Ban Phase. Why did it disappear?: Riot learned better.

#Double Targons.

Example Lane Duo: Two melee, it's open to anyone tbh. Main Appearance: Early Season 4. Goal: Double-farming and income sharing. Playstyle: The general premise was that both melees would take targons and share the wave, splitting gold. This would mean that two melees using targons could not only heal up in the face of poke comps but also get twice as much value from each lane. Unlike kill lanes, these were fine with farming. Strengths: Sustain, shared/double income, decent DPS, depends on your picked champions. Weaknesses: Low turret/objective damage, could be outfarmed if ADC got too far ahead, weaker late game. Why did it disappear?: Targon nerfs made the item less useful, as well as ADCs still being generally better.

#Ziggs Bot

Example Lane Duo: Ziggs Zilean / Ziggs Zyra Main Appearance: Early Season 7. Goal: Wave clear/hard push. Playstyle: Ziggs could take towers and, by virtue of existing, shaved around 25% HP off every tower. With storng wave clear, Ziggs could push the wave to the tower quite often while chunking it down with passive shots. Throw in some decent CSing and some strong ranged damage and Ziggs was a good fit. Strengths: Surpassing ADC tower damage. Decent DPS. Powerful waveclear/pushing. Weaknesses: Lower than an ADC in DPS. Objective damage outside of turrets was meh. Could be countered with engage lanes. Why did it disappear?: ADC resurgence and support items being better for ADCs than Ziggs. Also less reliable.

#Takeaways

With Riot focusing on ranged ADCs being less required, we can see some core things here. ADCs are almost always:

  • Reliable.
  • Good Objective/Tower damage.
  • Can come back given the chance.
  • Side-buffed by support items. (More than APCs or otherwise)
  • Can only be countered by "breaking" the game.

So to make non-ADC comps work. Riot can...

  • Increase reliability or make the reward for non-ADC comps even greater.
  • Give non-ranged better objective/tower taking.
  • Improve the disparity if a non-ADC falls behind.
  • Tailor certain support items to different builds. (Imagine an AP Ardent)
  • Give these lanes an advantage that traditional comps do not have without making Mordekaiser two.

79 Comments

kargish34 votes

I remember when Tryndamere MasterYi were considered late game hyper carries

Deathhawk88815 votes

In Wood 6, they still are.

Malicious Metal25 votes

I'd call BS on that Morde bit, seeing that he's still best in a duo lane, but I hue'd so you get a +1

SociopathFriend5 votes

Mordekaiser and Yorick botlane when?

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

By the way Malicious, off topic, what Metal music do you like to listen to anyway? Like, what bands?

Malicious Metal3 votes

Mostly Heavy and Power Metal, occasionally Nu and Thrash.

My all time favorite Metal artist's Ronnie James Dio, be it as a solo act or his days as the singer of Black Sabbath and Rainbow. In terms of Bands I tend to listen to frequently: Blind Guardian, Metallica, Accept, Saxon, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Disturbed, Sabaton and Jorn to name a few.

I Main Swain1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AqEAJdHU,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-21T17:53:26.609+0000)

I'd call BS on that Morde bit, seeing that he's still best in a duo lane, but I hue'd so you get a +1

i agree, my brother and i love doing mordecrank and it works like a charm, i honestly almost feel guilty doing it sometimes because so often they get to lane and just immediately die

ProfDrDeath16 votes

The main problem for non-Marksman in a duo lane lies in the fact that two person share one stream of XP. That's the main issue of the matter.

Kill lanes relied on destroying the enemy enough to be able to nullify the XP difference with solo laners by getting enough gold and gimping the enemy enough to allow their team the victory. They generally were not viable on equal skill level.

Mordekaiser goes around the XP problem by having a special exception intrinsic in his kit. This is not a general solution, and as a result of misjudging the impact of the effect he was the abomination that got extra levels on his opponents and beat them to death with it.

Double Targons only worked in the specific situation back then - not only was the item extremely strong, but jungle sucked vacuum back then, making it less efficient to jungle than to share the Targons-amplified resource stream.

Ziggs Bot worked by being somewhat less XP-dependent (only spell he really needs to max is Q) and abusing the pronounced early weakness of ADCs back then to cash in on the first tower gold and snowballing his entire team ahead.


In truth, I don't think there is much Riot can do to enable whole different classes bot lane without breaking the game in half in the process. But, what they definitely can do is to balance specific champions around being able to work in bot lane without being overly strong somewhere else (like current Mordekaiser).

To that end, a champion could use low level-scaling effects in his kit (non-scaling cooldowns, AP-scaling utility effects, low base damage increases with ability rank...), low base-stat increases and/or level-independent scaling effects that ideally work better with more enemy champions around (i.e. Veigar's AP stacking nowadays with its champion hit mechanic, first rework Cass's passive).

Oh, and range, either from abilities or general. A pure melee champion is pretty much the most unsuitable XP-sharer there is, given that these champions tend to take a lot of fire when moving into range, and thus are absolutely dependent on levels.

planters2 votes

I disagree in that it seems that currently marksman are way too reliable in the late game but far too unreliable in the early game, hence why supports dictate bot lane. I think changing crit to be less strong, remove IE's crit multiplier and reduce crit damage to an innate 180% or something like that, could bring down the need to have an adc while keeping marksman overall viable in league by buffing their early game.

gileskd8 votes

EASY! Mordekaiser Zilean Levels ahead of the competition! [sg-miss-fortune]

Karn Bishop8 votes

Wheres the option to make adc less reliable? why is that balance lever not listed?

DeusVult4 votes

That is really the only level that I can see being used. ADC champs tend to do all of the things listed because:

  • They rely on itemization rather than skills or levels.
  • The reason that they are "mandatory" is because the goal of the game is taking towers, not taking kills. Kill lanes can get kills, but ADCs can SAFELY damage turrets, and with their itemization they do so better than any other class.
  • If the enemy has waveclear, the way to be able to take down turrets is to take neutral objectives. And who is best at taking neutral objectives?? You guessed it, ranged AD marksmen.

ADCs will be a mainstay of the game until they become less reliable. That IS the only balance lever

KlydeFrog7 votes

Old Sion and old taric . Single Target stun dead

FalconPawwwwnch5 votes

You forgot Jax + Janna & Jax & Soraka which was used wayyyy back

Ahristocats1 votes

i pointed it out and got downvoted to oblivion for some reasons

Pinkaj3 votes

I've done Leona Nami and Soraka Thresh and Nidalee Bard and Blitzcrank Thresh It's fun to have some variety

DarkKatalyst3 votes

I think one way Riot could promote bot diversity is by making items that function similarly to Kalista's spear. When you are duoing bot, and are close to your partner, your item has full stats. There would be a brief grace period when your partner dies where your item stats remain. The twist is that as time passes by, this dependence goes away through something like mini quests that gain XP from partner proximity.

This setup would prevent solo lanes from abusing the perks that come with these items, because the solo stats would be bad enough that the item would be a waste.

RainyDayKitty3 votes

Oh the days of Blitzcrank Thresh . Thresh puts lantern down and Blitz pulls and clicks the lantern. Im not sure if its still around. Last time i checked they patched Blitz clicking the lantern while pulling.[zombie-brand-clap] [sg-miss-fortune]

I Am Ravi1 votes

Yh they did patch it out, idk why though. It's not like everybody and their mother was running around abusing it. Plus it wasn't even that easy to pull off. Was a fun mechanic which i also miss. [sg-soraka]

Support Boyyy2 votes

I have a lot of success with Yasuo Janna bot lane. I go Janna and my friend goes Yas, and we just wait till 6 then start throwing out random tornadoes together, forcing the enemies under tower. Not to mention Yasuo's windwall makes him super effective against ADCs and lets him farm without worrying about getting poked down.

It Hertz When IP4 votes

Actually got to try that duo as the Janna. It's great on paper, does not work AT ALL if you aren't duo-d with the Yasuo.

Something else to try might be Alistar/Yasuo.

ChaosThief2 votes

I'd add in a few cents of my own;

Yasuo + Hard CC support or a knock up support. Ideally, ones like Alistar or Blitzcrank .

Played it a few times, personal experience is that it works pretty well. Late game will have issues if you don't have someone to knock up enemies for you, though.

And an oddball: Gnar

Originally in PBE, he was picked as an ADC quite a bit of the time, and it's pretty obvious to see why. His Q scaled off a lot of AD and had range, his W was pretty much vayne's W but with movement speed and magic damage, and his E not only allowed for engage/escape but also gave attack speed. The reason it may not always work is due to his mega form, which if you don't get a good initiation off of, will struggle to really assist in a fight.

I'd honestly consider doing Gnar bot lane quite a bit more often if it weren't for the fact that I'm kind of terrible at marksmen and the general stigma that would happen if I tried to pick him for bot lane.

Plastic 5 ADC2 votes

No thanks sounds disgusting and will make me quit the game.

4th3t0s14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Plastic 5 ADC,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AqEAJdHU,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-01-21T21:03:50.310+0000)

No thanks sounds disgusting and will make me quit the game.

Name still checks out

Yes Daddy PIease2 votes

THE STICKY BANDITS

starelementpoke2 votes

I miss Garen / Taric

D4M2X02 votes

blitz+graves, blitz+xin, blitz with any hefty dps/burst/CC champ.

NekoniClaws2 votes

The meta's not so set right now in normals low elo as it felt (as long as you ban vayne)

Mage bot, bruiser + sup, and duo-support are all coherent and a lot of fun at the enemy bot-lane's expense. Demolish is helping the melees bot with their pushing issue. It's not going to show up at worlds but most players can enjoy themselves right now =)

LeonaTaric is so stupid and so fun everyone should try it. I've never seen so many tilted adcs and 'hell no I'm not ganking that lane!' junglers.

Zertryx2 votes

I'd also like to add that i dont think that support itemization is the only reason aDC's are great bot compared to other characters, but also SUPPORT ABILITYS. Lots of supports were buffed / nerfed and adjusted to compliment ADC's Take Jannas Shield for example, not only does it shield an ADC for a lot of health but it also gives AD, this isnt as useful for an APC it might be decent on a fighter though.

But also on that note its not always just the ADC that makes bot lane so hard, alot of the supports are very poweful to also stop Melee champs or even APC's from going bot because their poke is very heavy at lower cost because they dont scale as hard as an apc later. Though Designing supports / readjusting some to help Melee / APC's bot could also be a suggestion.

One thing to note is that all those Kill lanes bot back in season 2/3 were HARD engage supports things that can dive and CC heavily so the melee has a chance to get in, a Lulu with a Jarvan might not be as effective in securing a kill as a Leo / J4 would. But also due to lots of Supports having VERY heavy Shields / Stuns on LOW CD's makes it very hard for a melee to do well bot regardless of the ADC poke range. This also a problem for APC's as they cannot poke because the shield would mitigate everything and then the APC would run outta mana while now losing out to the ADC autos.

TL;DR: Maybe don't just look at Support ITEMS for helping new champs work bot lane, but also Support ABILITYS to compliment other types of Roles

Champion Skin3 votes

Lots of supports were buffed / nerfed and adjusted to compliment ADC's Take Jannas Shield for example, not only does it shield an ADC for a lot of health but it also gives AD, this isnt as useful for an APC it might be decent on a fighter though.

To be fair I am pretty sure Janna shield have always given AD though Lulu W used to give MS + AP but was later change to give MS + AS

Ardènt2 votes

With all these new runes and Camille the answer is simple. MAKE THE BONUS THE SUPPORTS GIVE
A D A P T I V E. [zombie-brand-clap]

y0r1ck1 votes

True, this gets weird on champs that can build both ad and ap though.

LVL99 Helper TK2 votes

I want Riot to take the ADC class down to their basement and bring out the nerf bat after they have tied up all the ADC's

CasualPeachSax2 votes

Classic PantheonpantaricTaric back when taric full ap was fun.

Yordle Xayah2 votes

The reason I think the play style has never stuck, is because not having a marksman in the late game makes team fighting virtually impossible. You HAVE to win before you reach that point in the game.

Also: Annie Amumu

Verxint2 votes

XinZhao Taric isn't actually that terrible to be honest

Rathar Dashing1 votes

I'm a big fan of Braum Taric myself.

I Am Ravi2 votes

Just on the tower taking aspect, here's a thought, maybe not a very good one but anyway here goes. What if damage done to towers scaled downwards the farther away from the tower you are. So like the reliability in terms of ranged attacks frequently hitting the tower stays the same but the damage output for quickly taking towers with melee champs could be more desired to actually push fast.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

That's a super interesting idea! I think it has some merit, but I have no idea what tuning would be necessary to make it completely balanced.

I would also be concerned with it taking away from Zigg's whole theme, since he's supposed to be a demolitions guy, but maybe that could be fixed by making his passive not affected by the ranged damage down-scaling.

Hopefully Riot could test this idea and find a happy medium!

I Am Ravi2 votes

Yh i was thinking about the same thing when it comes to passives like Cait's headshot on towers, Trist's E, well basically any empowered auto maybe could not be affected by the debuff.

I think stuff like the RFC + Static shiv passives on towers shouldn't be affected though as the debuff would only apply to the base AD of the auto attack.

I was also thinking that maybe 2nd tier towers could apply a Frozen Heart kind of passive to slow down autos.

I mean it would be nice if the outer towers had the range debuff passive, 2nd tier had the frozen heart passive. and then 3rd tier would be normal as to not make the game into 60 minute turtle fests.

I think games would get slightly longer, ADC's won't be very favoured for turret taking unless you build a team to do so like Yorick top, Nunu jungle, Ziggs mid, Cait adc, and Janna supp. But I mean that's just a pipedream XD.

But then looking at other adcs like JInx and Trist that get attack speed steroids in their kits which makes them pushing monsters because of their range being very safe, i think that the frozen heart passive does a decent job of cutting their mid game tower taking potential a bit.

So maybe people will pick kill lanes in bot and try and get the first tower and then roam idk.

But it could work.

End of caffeine fueled rambling.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

That was not rambling, it was solid analysis, thanks for discussing this dude! I'm fully onboard with your idea now :)

FurriesAreHot2 votes

We can't forget the Binding Bitches, who I and a friend had a great time with:

Welcome to Summoners Rift! MasterYi : wtf? Troll bot lane?

Lux : Whats wrong with morgana support?

MasterYi : Lux adc???

Lux : You think this is trolling? This combo is OP

MasterYi [ALL] : Report bot lane trolling

10 Minutes pass, in that time we got first blood, and second, and third, While YI is 0/3

Morgana : who's trolling now? \

Metallikaiser2 votes

As someone who mains off meta botlanes, because I find the early doubles/triples satisfying, I find it to be the best way to have fun in a duo (I do some of these in solo que though), and because I love not having a fed adc ruin my game, I figure I might as well share some.

First off, Mordekaiser bot still works great, he is my main, and botlane is where he was meant to be, and I hate losing games because of a toxic support who has no trust in me. Zil support is especially good for that speed metal. Second off, I still do the ZZ bot lane. My friend plays quite a bit of Ziggs, and Ziggs with Zilean is still a hilarious nearly assured first turret lane with tons of poke and self peel. Third, Pantheon anti adc is a funny kill lane that I have come to enjoy, though my main support for it was my friend playing Taric. Fourth, Urgot adc is fun, I feel he has the potential to be an abusive lane bully that assures kills with his engage, let alone a support following up with their own. One particular combo that was hilarious was me as Urgot with my partner playing Karthus support, really punishing at short range, Karthus not needing to focus on wave clear is an absurd amount of poke, and karthus q's following up on landed Urgot q's is great, I find that between their q's, and their ults, they have really good potential to exert kill pressure even if the enemy is under tower, thus making it easy to force them off and take turret.

Oh and almost forgot because I dont play Galio, but my friend does. And him playing Galio support for a Yasuo adc, and him playing full AP Galio apc and dealing 70,000 damage were both impressive.

Cunky1 votes

JarvanIV /XinZhao or Pantheon /Shen are both fun as shit bot lane if you have a duo.

Lios Ashenblade2 votes

lol I did Leona Taric with a friend, I think it would be way more fun of I played with a better Taric lol, but you know, RL friends

Jasiwel3 votes

I've experienced JarvanIV /Pantheon and they legit instakilled us once they had Lethality. It was both embarrassing and awe-inspiring.

The Dreamwalker1 votes

Zoe and Lux bot lane is just cancer to the core. I did that with a friend and we kept bursting people.

[sg-kiko]

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Dreamwalker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AqEAJdHU,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-01-21T20:10:06.164+0000)

Zoe and Lux bot lane is just cancer to the core. I did that with a friend and we kept bursting people.

[sg-kiko]

i miss Lux + Morgana bot.

The Dreamwalker2 votes

Oh my gosh, the perma root.

If played correctly, Lux could root for 2 seconds then Morg could root for 3. XD

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