My biggest wish for season 8: a less impactful early game

warpenguin555··189 votes·5,893 views

1 It's frustrating to lose early and know that you don't have much of a chance to come back.

2 We've had an early game meta since preseason 6. The gameplay isn't interesting anymore

3 Junglers wouldn't be deciding games are easily as they do now

4 Marksmen can scale at a slower pace again, possibly resulting in games not being decided by bot lane.

5 More competitive games, both for solo queue players and in pro play. Having better back and forth games isn't a bad thing by any means

6 Possibly less tilt (who am I kidding thats not happening lol)

7 You'd be able to carry a team mate who had a rough lane without needing to win your lane harder than he lost his

175 Comments

Pandemic Punch14 votes

If you wish for a slower pace, that may mean changes to the economy. Probably less gold for kills, less gold for CS, slower passive gold generation, less gold for objectives, or more expensive items.

Lauchmelder12 votes

Or just not buffing earlygame champions into oblivion while subsequently nerfing lategame hypercarries (except lategame hypercarry marksmen who already reach their lategame after 20 minutes now).

Pandemic Punch6 votes

Another champion will always take it's place.

deadlychuck2 votes

Or just not buffing earlygame champions into oblivion while subsequently nerfing lategame hypercarries

Simply buffing early game champions is sufficient to negate the viability of late game hypercarries. It's the wall that hearthstone kept running head first into for years, where the late game was irrelevant, if you could close out the game before the late game value took over.

Even if you can't win before the say 25 minute mark, that doesn't prevent you from dominating the river, getting all the dragons, taking baron off CD, and pushing to inhibs. Basically making split pushing sufficient to close out a game, even if you fall behind their hypercarry(s).

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Tell me one "lategame hypercarry" who isn't straight up better than any early game champ? None of these champs have bad laning phases anymore. No vayne, no twitch, no kog, no cass, no orianna (not being a HYPERCARRY but a supposed lategame carry), fiora XDXDXDXD. Whereas basically every early game champ always plays against the clock before he becomes useless after 25 mins.

SirTeemoMushroom12 votes
  1. top lane shall be a place where you can show your true skills instead of going full tank and feel no damage .
Iota Theta54 votes

while dealing 0 damage.

Tanks may not have skill on the micro level, but they require a good chunk on the macro level.

SirTeemoMushroom3 votes

Nasus Garen Illaoi

Iota Theta41 votes

{quoted}

Nasus Garen Illaoi

All Juggernauts, and of those three, Nasus is the only one of those that can potentially build full tank and still deal damage, but he has to majorly stack up first. Most juggernauts need AD (or AP in Morde’s case) or they fall off and become poor tanks because their primary contributions are durability and damage.

Juggernauts that technically don’t have to build AD or AP: Nasus, Mundo, maybe Volibear.

SirTeemoMushroom4 votes

[deleted]

Fairyfleur45 votes

Building tank items isn't the same as being a tank.

Jbels25 votes

{quoted}

they all build tank , with the exception of black cleaver

Yeah, and all mages and Assassins build damage. Does it make sense to lump them together? They aren't called "Tank items", they are called defensive purchases. Yes, Tanks and Juggernauts both heavily build defensive items. That does not mean they are the same thing

Automated Riven3 votes

They are damage dealers. (but in all fairness I agree)

SoryInAdvance6 votes

Yeah and juggernauts are damage dealers, tanks are not.

Automated Riven2 votes

True. I was refering to mages and adc's (if you were to clump them together) I dont think that juggernauts are tanks, nor should they be classified as such.

Jbels32 votes

{quoted}

Nasus Garen Illaoi

Not. Tanks. For fuck sake, how many people are going to keep using juggernauts as an argument for why tanks do too much damage? That's like saying since both mages and assassins burst the shit out of people, when one of the two is too strong, they both are.

SirTeemoMushroom3 votes

[deleted]

AgeOfTheMage4 votes

They're juggernauts, doesn't mean I hate fighting them any less tho, the moment I get close to garen he can somehow outdamage me and be building full tank, same for nasus, illaoi I don't actually have any problems with.

SirTeemoMushroom1 votes

k den ! name 1 tank champion then .

Jbels5 votes

{quoted}

k den ! name 1 tank champion then .

Sion

Iota Theta7 votes

{quoted}

k den ! name 1 tank champion then .

Ornn.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Isnt he a juggernaut?

He doesn't have a defensive steroid or particular scaling and he actually deals a good bit of damage with his W.

Altho he plays much like a tank would, but his damage is fairly high for one.....at least compared to Seju x)

Iota Theta8 votes

{quoted}

Isnt he a juggernaut?

He doesn't have a defensive steroid or particular scaling and he actually deals a good bit of damage with his W.

Altho he plays much like a tank would, but his damage is fairly high for one.....at least compared to Seju x)

100% Vanguard tank. W is the only real damage he has and it’s only %current health, which means it deals less overall damage as the fight goes on, as opposed to Juggernauts who have fairly consistent damage.

His W is also a shield which scales off 12% max hp, which is a defensive steroid.

Chembaron Yamada8 votes

A Juggernaut is a champion specialized in durability and damage, while being easily kitable. And this subclass is part of the fighter class together with Divers, not tanks (which include Wardens and Vanguards).

kalima9943 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApX0EFPR,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-09-22T16:38:16.520+0000)

while dealing 0 damage.

Tanks may not have skill on the micro level, but they require a good chunk on the macro level.

But....doesn't every champ require macro skill? Macro skill isn't even about champions

Iota Theta5 votes

In a way, but it is especially true for tanks because you have to understand potential engages, counter-engages, awareness of the enemy assassin, proper use of TP if they have it. If a tank fails in these regards, it could lead to a lost teamfight.

Handin Out Naps10 votes

Everyone on the boards complains about how short their games are and how early game decides everything, but you look through their match history and they average 30 minute games because no one knows how to close out with a lead. I n t e r e s t i n g.

SpecterVonBaren24 votes

No, the problem isn't that games "end" too early, it's that they "effectively end" early. Whether because one or two people refuse to surrender and/or because the enemy team still wants their macro strategy to be like they don't have a gigantic lead, games may not actually end quickly but the winner is decided very quickly.

Handin Out Naps2 votes

If you won the game completely based off of early game, its not going to take you 30 minutes to end, period. I dont care what you say 30 minutes is enough time for people to come back depending on team comp.

SpecterVonBaren12 votes

Yes, it will. Don't act as if minion waves, general disorganization of solo que, and a winning team wanting to see the losing team squirm, isn't a reality in this game. It takes time to end the game, even if the winner is decided, just like a rattlesnake bite will kill you even if the attack was quick and your death won't come immediately.

Handin Out Naps3 votes

So are you blaming the game's state or are you blaming you and your teammates being too dumb to end the game? You may want to realize which you are talking about before you start complaining.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

It doesn't matter either way. A 10-17 score is almost impossible to come back from. Objectives like Towers and drags fall too quickly and give too much global reward for the other team to come back from.

Raiyza9 votes

Just buff turrets. Thats all Riot needs to do. Dives shoujld not be easy at level 4.

GayFluffyUnicorn9 votes

A few things need to happen for soloQ to become enjoyable again.

  1. Remove that stupid feature that winning teams minions are stronger. Somehow you are supposed to solo 1v9 in ranked but apart from having terrible and feeding teammates you also get an extra burden of stronger minions???? hello?
  2. Remove catch up xp except from jungle camps but lower those. It's insanely frustrating to be two level ahead of your opponent and 50 CS then somehow he gets an assist and a wave on you and is equal again--->also fixes one part of why botlane is so overwhelming since they rarely are more than a level down to solo laners when they used to be regularly 2/3 levels below a winning solo lane.
  3. Make farming in the jungle attractive again, i'd like to play toplane some time in the future again and not 1v2 the first 15 mins. There should be a trade off between jungle farming and ganking. Not sitting in brushes for 10 mins and never fall behind.
  4. Buff turrets in two ways: durability and damage. Especially the first towers should be way harder to take down. It#s insanely frustrating to outplay your opponent, constantly pressure him get tp advantage and after one tp play which is the reward for being better you lose first tower by a full tank with only one and a half waves. And as you said: dmg. Level 3 towerdives are so insanely common right now especially in dia + because even bad dives barely get punished by how bad turrets are.
Thewannabegamer2 votes

About the first point they did it so gold would funnel in without the losing team having to over extend to help them hold. In reality it gives them less time to defend their shit and teammates after shoving out a wave.

LankPants8 votes

Agreed, winning early game should give you a fair advantage going into the late game, it shouldn't just win you it by default.

Early game wins should generate moderate gold advantages, Dragon advantages and pressure advantages from outer towers. The problem is that every tower falls so easy that you can snowball an early lead into all 6 towers out of base easy and use the pressure to get everything on the map. If towers, especially inner towers took a bit more effort to knock down I think the early game would become a lot less important near instantly.

Divewing8 votes

7 You'd be able to carry a team mate who had a rough lane without needing to win your lane harder than he lost his

PREACH IT TO THE SKIES BROTHA!!!

Aria Storm7 votes

I said it before, and I'll say it again: this game has lost a lot of its interest because the games have gotten so short. It used to be a 40 minute game was average, and by then everyone, aside maybe the supports, would be full level, and nearing build if they weren't there already. This was fun, entertaining, where one good - or bad - team fight won a game. it was down to skill and teamwork, because everyone had their items. It was fun to watch, because you could see skill, outplays. One lane doing poorly didn't matter as much, because your team could bring them back up. One lane doing well wasn't an instant win.

They either need to make gold easier to get, or items cheaper if they really want these shorter games. A 2-3 item Draven 2 shotting an underfed Jinx that's struggling to finish her first item is not entertaining to watch, nor is it entertaining to play. They also need to make it so minions/champions give more exp, maybe more exp for baron/rift/dragon/towers, too.

But the fact of the matter is, League was NEVER meant to be so short. It just doesn't doesn't work for it with the way its coded. It's trying to be more akin to Hots, which are short games that are around 20 minutes or less. 15 minutes games or less often happen because one team isn't team fighting or doing objectives well. The thing with hots, is that they implement a lot into the game where it doesn't suffer from being short.

1: There is no shop. Aside level, everyone is at the same power damage wise. 2: The exp is shared across everyone. If you have a 15/1 Illidan or a Ragnaros with 15k exp soaked, that exp contributes to everyone. 3: Kills don't matter as much as the objectives and team fights do. 4: Towers, keeps, and forts give you a massive exp boost. Kills don't. In short, a split pushing Nasus would contribute to his whole team more than he would currently. 5: In 20 minutes, usually both teams are at, or close to level 21. in 20 minutes of league, unless you are fed, you could be around level 12-14. 16 if you are a solo laner. 6: A team fight wins the game, skill wins the game, because there is no shop, because everyone can easily be level 21, its less likely to have steamrolls. The games don't feel short because everyone should be where they should be and when they should be.

Hots was made to be short, league was not. Stop trying to be like hots. There isn't much league can do to have the same flavour as hots, Unless, again, they remove the shop or make the items so easy to get that its down to skill, not who killed 10-30 more minions.

[sg-ezreal]

SnakDatSmilesBak2 votes

Isn't killing 10-30 more minions a matter of skill?

SaveToTheADrive7 votes

It really feels like esports viewership contributes to game balance more than actual fun anymore.

Riot wants pro games to be shorter, and they want to force dives and flashy plays as early as possible, because farming and small trades is uninteresting to viewers.

If you can easily come back from getting 4-man dove at bot, giving 3 kills, FB, FBT, and possibly Drake - the lead won't be worth it for pros to even attempt that kind of shit, and they'll just go back to afk farming like crazy to get their leads, which is why the Laser and Shield turrets were removed.

PePsiLemoNN6 votes

you don't have much of a chance to come back.

That's a lie.

MonkeyMadness5 votes

I appreciate what Riot was trying to do by speeding up games (ie get into the action faster) but they took it WAAAAY too far. It's gotten to the point where I can reliably pick the outcome of the game based on the first 5 mins, and that's really not ok...

Frontline Fury5 votes

At the beginning, shortening the games was the right thing to do. No more frequent 60 minute games. But this season's just been way over the line. I understand they want their e-sports matches to be commercial break material but jesus christ riot, think a little less on your TV viewers and a little more about your general playerbase. Do you really want your game to become an exclusive delicacy only the elite can partake of?

Athenes Lulu5 votes

there should be a penalty for camping botlane 24/7

before fortification on turrets became a thing, camping botlane all day would result in a mid/toplaner taking a first tower, in which has a real risk in deciding where to gank.

RacoonHunter4 votes

I 100% agree. Most of the games I tilt have been because I'm playing a mid/late game champion who falls behind because of 24/7 camps from both mid and jungle.. who dive me under turret when I'm level 4 and by the time i farm up to be of any use, the games over because 1-2 inhibs are down within 20 minutes.

Riot needs to seriously look again on how long the average SR game is being played. It's pathetic that ARAM games are going longer than them now. Hell, the average aram game I'm in is 26.5 minutes vs SR of 22.3

Vanic9984 votes

I think one way to make games last longer is to give turrets more health.

HeimerLmao5 votes

Maybe increase farm gold and decrease kill gold, to reduce snowball.

DunkinNoobs2 votes

We have an early game meta? Are you sure? Because I could have sworn that adc was the most important role right now and all the good adcs are late game adcs. Like, literally ALL of them Tristana Twitch KogMaw XayahJinx Vayne Sivir

Doozku4 votes

The problem is that ADCs are getting their power spikes too early.

4th3t0s4 votes

A lot of this is because the existence of warlords allows them to bypass the weakness of adc's having no innate sustain, letting them rush straight to crit. Also both of their defensive item options in the past (item 3102 item 3026) were reworked, one purely to their benefit.

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