I Hate Vayne Top

BabyDucck·Dec 4, 2019·40 votes·15,097 views

Literally Vayne is the worst thing any melee top laner can ever face, she can outrange which I understand but if she takes press the attack three autos level 1 is a huge chunk of damage. Even if you sacrifice the cs and play safe she will still outscale you, the lane pretty much comes down to your jungler ganking and if they jungler does not gank Vayne top she just becomes a monster. I think its kind of ridiculous that teams can get away with running two adcs and no engage and still win a game all because they can punish the top laner early and make him useless. The only time I've ever beaten Vayne top is because she was not smart and could not kite and never used condemn. If Vayne has experience and knows what she is doing you should never be able to kill her unless you and your jungler match her flash early. I just wish there were some way we could fix this like some type of perma ban system for anyone who plays Vayne top or maybe the lose LP even if its a normal game.(This is a joke to help deal with my tilt) But honestly I just feel this champ is very unfair top lane.

64 Comments

R0ses R RedDec 5, 201924 votes

Vayne top literally doesn't have any form of counterplay outside of junglers. You can't itemize against her, you can't outscale her, and you can't trade into her. Literally no counterplay. The only reason she isn't a candidate for a rework or gutting is because her play rate is trash there.

WoonStruckDec 5, 201913 votes

For melees.

Ranged love seeing Vayne top.

Pick Vlad and you always have 1 shot potential on her post-6 if she's pretty much anywhere under full HP, for example. She's like a Teemo/Trist that does less damage before 1 item, and she's forced to eat a good amount of minion aggro if she wants to get her W off.

Crescent DuskDec 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

For melees.

Ranged love seeing Vayne top.

Pick Vlad and you always have 1 shot potential on her post-6 if she's pretty much anywhere under full HP, for example. She's like a Teemo/Trist that does less damage before 1 item, and she's forced to eat a good amount of minion aggro if she wants to get her W off.

Oh, please. A Vayne that's not a vegetable won't let you get anywhere near empowered Q range when she sees it rising and if she knows anything about Vladimir using E to stall out an empowered Q without being in range, she will know you are planning to flash ult into EQ. Vladimir is even more predictable than Annie and Vayne will only look to harass after you use up an empowered Q.

With sanguine blade and lethal tempo she should have no issue against Vlad whatsoever.

WoonStruckDec 6, 20192 votes

Vladimir is one of the many champions that do extremely well into vayne top.

Look it up. Stats don't lie.

HungryAngry2SPPDec 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=R0ses R Red,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApEGbUXh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-05T04:52:27.523+0000)

Vayne top literally doesn't have any form of counterplay outside of junglers. You can't itemize against her, you can't outscale her, and you can't trade into her. Literally no counterplay. The only reason she isn't a candidate for a rework or gutting is because her play rate is trash there.

Can't itemize? item 3800 item 3742

iamthegoatofwarDec 5, 20194 votes

With her knockback/possible stun, invis during ult with tumble, and %max HP true damage use itemization vs her is quite difficult in most cases.

SirsirDec 6, 20191 votes

You can try item 3075 which is trash first item.

You could buy item 3110 which is actually okay for the matchup.

item 3143 ...

But base tank items won't do much

WoonStruckDec 6, 20191 votes

You just build item 3047 item 3076 . Don't upgrade bramble. Thornmail sucks ass. Sell bramble later if you don't want the full thornmail. Bramblevest is OP in lane vs primary auto-attackers.

That's 55 armor. You probably have over 100 armor by this point.

Then you out-trade her, she E's you away, and you recover most of her damage via item 1054 over the duration of that encounter. Bonus points if you took stuff like Second Wind.

Don't try to force anything. You're just going to get yourself killed. Play smart.

Garson211Dec 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You just build . Don't upgrade bramble. Thornmail sucks ass. Sell bramble later if you don't want the full thornmail. Bramblevest is OP in lane vs primary auto-attackers.

That's 55 armor. You probably have over 100 armor by this point.

Then you out-trade her, she E's you away, and you recover most of her damage via over the duration of that encounter. Bonus points if you took stuff like Second Wind.

Don't try to force anything. You're just going to get yourself killed. Play smart.

Bro many times i play vs vayne top i got counter picked.Didint lose yet but iinly because my jungler help me farm those items and i could survive long enoght till bot takes drakes and jungler can come again.I think i played mundo that isnt super bad vs her but still. Its end like, i try to get her so she q back and my flash could end counter by her (dunno skill this e i think that push out) so trying anything was pointless. So i end lane phase as a outfarmed trash useless in tf

WoonStruckDec 6, 20191 votes

As mundo you end up max range Q farming in most match-ups anyway...idk how vayne would really change that.

The thigh guyDec 5, 20199 votes

And then you get to team fight. Realize their team comp is ass and almost auto win by death balling.

Pandemic PunchDec 5, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApEGbUXh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-05T01:32:07.982+0000)

And then you get to team fight. Realize their team comp is ass and almost auto win by death balling.

It is easy to guess your elo based on that comment. The number of problems surrounding your comment are too vast to help you understand why it is wrong. So, I will attempt to give one extremely generalized concept that can paint with a very large brush....

If you are trapped in lane as a melee vs Vayne top, there won't be any team fights around top lane early enough to matter. If your team doesn't unlock you from your lane or regularly keep Vayne in check, the game will be 4v4 until Vayne gets a big enough lead. Then your team will be stuck in a 4v5 because your lane is in shambles and you are too behind to contribute anything. If you try to follow a roaming Vayne, she will kill you in 6 or less auto attacks. If you built full tank, you die in about 8 or less auto attacks.

Team fights don't conveniently happen right where you want them to and they don't magically give you gold and exp to immediately boost you on your opponent's level. If you are in a match up with this much of a counter, you are at the complete mercy of your team. You can't contribute anything and your team has to hold your hand or win the game 4v4 before Vayne has time to come online.

Sir SaltarinDec 5, 20195 votes

And by your comment it looks like Vayne top is the most broken shit even when it's a low pickrate with negative winrate strat.

RazelthDec 5, 20193 votes

What? Having a ranged top that contributes only single-target damage and one form of situational CC is a detriment to any team comp. It will be far weaker than having any meta melee champ in top lane.

Honestly, every hard counter in top lane forces you to hope your team is good enough to be able to carry you. It isn't just a Vayne top thing.

It is easy to guess your elo based on that comment. The number of problems surrounding your comment are too vast to help you understand why it is wrong. So, I will attempt to give one extremely generalized concept that can paint with a very large brush....

This shit is hilarious. I peaked D4 in 40 games last season btw, meaning that your argument is invalid now since I am a higher rank and said so.

HashJusDec 5, 20198 votes

Range advantage is a real thing and Riot is not addressing it. People are playing Cass top, Ryze top, Lucian top. Why?

Why is Lucian considered a great counter to many top laners? Just because they all have ranged advantage. It's horrible. Riot need to find a way to get them out of Top lane, and Mages out of Bot Lane, cause nowadays mages scale just as well as ADCs

klin537Dec 5, 20196 votes

and if you try to trade or go all in she can just press q to keep her distance, so unless you have any ranged abilities you can't really touch her.

Daddy AntsDec 5, 20195 votes

2% pick rate. 48% win rate.

Wow broken.

FCJAAAAGOOOODec 5, 20194 votes

Ah, but did they build Sanguini Bladeroni?

OneMustFallDec 5, 20194 votes

Literally pick any tank/melee champ with an engage or CC and she's toast. Her E is on such a long C/D early and that's her only way of getting away from you.

Malphite Yorick Maokai Nasus Jax Pantheon Kled all beat her. Or you can just pick Teemo and absolutely destroy her.

She's honestly only good vs bruisers who can't close the gap. But she's highly susceptible to ganks. And her waveclear is pretty mediocre as well so she's just a very niche pick top lane.

dogownerjrDec 5, 20191 votes

Malphite won't work if he doesn't have his ult because she will just Condemn him and can be easily Condemned into a wall.

Same goes for Yorick basically.

Maokai could probably help deal with her later, but his early game will be so bad that he will probably be too behind to be useful.

Nasus will be fucked for the rest of the game unless the game lasts super long and he gets some solo lane farming at some point, and even then, Vayne would be so ahead on farm alone that Nasus probably will never kill her.

Jax would definitely be able to trade with her, but he wouldn't be able to stay on top of her;also, not sure why someone would counter pick Vayne into him in the first place.

Same goes for Pantheon basically.

I don't play Kled enough to say much about him, but I would imagine he has the best chance against her since he has multiple ways of sticking on to his opponent, but knowing that, again, I don't know why someone would counter pick Vayne into him.

You can't counter pick Teemo into Vayne if Vayne was the counter pick to your champ in the first place.

OneMustFallDec 5, 20194 votes

{quoted}

won't work if he doesn't have his ult because she will just Condemn him and can be easily Condemned into a wall.

Same goes for basically.

could probably help deal with her later, but his early game will be so bad that he will probably be too behind to be useful.

will be fucked for the rest of the game unless the game lasts super long and he gets some solo lane farming at some point, and even then, would be so ahead on farm alone that probably will never kill her.

would definitely be able to trade with her, but he wouldn't be able to stay on top of her;also, not sure why someone would counter pick into him in the first place.

Same goes for basically.

I don't play enough to say much about him, but I would imagine he has the best chance against her since he has multiple ways of sticking on to his opponent, but knowing that, again, I don't know why someone would counter pick into him.

You can't counter pick into if was the counter pick to your champ in the first place.

https://u.gg/lol/champions/vayne/matchups?role=top

Malphite crushes Vayne. Again her E is on a much longer CD and Malph can just spam Q on her to win trades and then run in on her when her E is on CD. Once he hits 6, the lane is completely over.

Yorick just has to land one W and Vayne is done. There's no Qing through the wall and she can't deal with his minions.

Nasus once he hits 6 wins easily. His Wither will completely ruin Vayne and even with her E she can't get away. Not to mention if Nasus gets any ganks it's a free kill.

Darius and Garen will get abused by Vayne. Volibear who is typically good at running down ADCs loses to Vayne. But she doesn't have nearly as many good matchups as people think. Quinn is far better at the position and is more toxic to deal with than Vayne is and she can roam far better too.

black waist downDec 6, 20192 votes

loo

LanceTheMightyDec 5, 20193 votes

hHAhahah but low winrate durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Vayne top literally has no counterplay for melee champions outside of your jungler helping, or the vayne messing up, which happens fairly often, ranged top laners are kinda iffy in the frontal lobe area.

ArammusDec 5, 20193 votes

idk seing tanks top is more rare than ever... a few days ago i saw a vayne vs irelia top. vayne got 2 kills early on. then irelia got phage + sheen and it was over for vayne. irelia literally hit q+aa on vayne and took almost half her hp. vayne did nothing anymore. and i remember seing a similar thing with renekton.

if you are a bruiser and you most likely have some sort of mobility/dash then vayne is screwed as soon as you got half of your first item done. because you just burst her down so quick.

but pls if you comment remember: i dont play top. and im a tank sup/jungler myself. playing a full tank like mao malph sion i can imagine must be absolute nightmare vs vayne. (but still the champ isnt really mobile, jungler and she is done for)

WAZZZUP500Dec 5, 20191 votes

Yeah but vayne top builds different items. I've seen vaynes rush frozen mallet first item, it's so cancer. She can force anyone off of her with e, and unless you have 2 long range gap closers (ig irelia could have that, renekton too, but it's kinda short), there's no way you're gonna kill her. Jax, aatrox, morde, darius, any tank, pantheon, none of these champs can do anything.

Maybe rengar top could work?

Minimac2000Dec 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but vayne top builds different items. I've seen vaynes rush frozen mallet first item, it's so cancer. She can force anyone off of her with e, and unless you have 2 long range gap closers (ig irelia could have that, renekton too, but it's kinda short), there's no way you're gonna kill her. Jax, aatrox, morde, darius, any tank, pantheon, none of these champs can do anything.

Maybe rengar top could work?

Yep, play any assassin into her and she will most likely regret it.... but you most likely picked first if you got vayne top picked into you

NaughtyWordDec 6, 20193 votes

Vayne is at a 48% win rate in top lane. This idea that Vayne top is crushing the lane is unsubstantiated.

https://u.gg/lol/tier-list?role=top

The top 9 win rates in top lane, plat+ are ALL melee, with Heimerdinger coming in at #10.

As people have already eloquently pointed out, if someone plays Vayne top lane, they've just screwed their team out of a front line engage and given them YET another ADC to protect. This is probably why Vayne top lane has a trash-tier win rate. Vayne Bot is at 50% win rate.

I think this is more faux victim complex of top laners who just feel they aren't quite special enough yet and need to make shit up to whine about.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

WoonStruckDec 6, 20193 votes

Most don't tend to want to build bramblevest+tabis, instead opting for rushing their damage item, then complain when they feel like they can't do anything.

And yet those same players will complain about how bramblevest and tabis are OP...

NaughtyWordDec 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Most don't tend to want to build bramblevest+tabis, instead opting for rushing their damage item, then complain when they feel like they can't do anything.

And yet those same players will complain about how bramblevest and tabis are OP...

Don't get me wrong, I have a great deal of respect for the lane. It is my least favorite lane to play, yes even for the mess that jungle is in right now, I'd rather do that than top lane. It has much different dynamics than bot lane does and playing it makes me uncomfortable. I have friends that only play top lane and they don't do any the complaining I see here on the boards. One such person is a Renekton main and he licks his lips in delight if his enemy laner is stupid enough to pick Vayne, Lucian, or goth-forbid Tristana. He's going to come out of that lane VERY fed.

WoonStruckDec 6, 20192 votes

I have respect for GOOD top laners, not top laners in general. The large majority rely on stat-checking their lane opponenet (hello ghost+flash Darius), pretty much any Morde/Garen player, etc.

If they can't win by mashing their head against the keyboard while they ignore any form of wave control, they whine that X, Y or Z champ that beat them is OP.

Vlad isn't even good top lane and look at how many people complain about it because he's not forced to let you all-in when he attempts to CS. "HE SUSTAINS", when Aatrox (unless he never Qs or misses every one) and any D-shield or corrupting pot user sustains more before one item + level 9.

I can probably count on my fingers the amount of top lane players that have actually outplayed me as opposed to just forcing a stat-check or me being stupid, thus being stat-checked. Fighting in the middle of your minions so I can't E you as Vlad? Nah, just try to stat-check.

Gone are the days of being out-traded. Now you just get all-in'd every time they're in range unless you have some form of counter-engage/hard disengage.

NaughtyWordDec 6, 20191 votes

{quoted} If they can't win by mashing their head against the keyboard while they ignore any form of wave control, they whine that X, Y or Z champ that beat them is OP.

Vlad isn't even good top lane and look at how many people complain about it because he's not forced to let you all-in when he attempts to CS. "HE SUSTAINS", when Aatrox (unless he never Qs or misses every one) and any D-shield or corrupting pot user sustains more before one item + level 9.

To this day they still petulantly whine about Kayle. She's not even in the conversation of best solo que top laners and has recently picked up popularity in mid lane. On the boards these top laners will whine endlessly never mind the fact that:

Fleet Footwork is better on melee champions Conqueror currently is and is only going to get better for melee champions next patch. Grasp of the Undying is better on melee champions Glacial Augment is better on melee champions Trinity Force is better on melee champions Black Cleaver is better on melee champions item 3748 is melee only item 3074 is melee only Frozen Mallet is better on melee champions

There are something like 4 keystones and 6 items have either direct range nerfs or outright range restrictions and these whiners will still say they are not catered enough to. There's probably even more items I'm missing, what do range champions have in comparison? item 3085 ?

Is that it?

Oh and yeah, melee champions are dominating top lane right now and AD melee champs have been the king of the jungle for a very long time now.

Sir SaltarinDec 5, 20192 votes

And I hate Heimer bot.

Congrats.

Garson211Dec 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApEGbUXh,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-12-05T09:00:36.597+0000)

And I hate Heimer bot.

Congrats.

Guess who gonna be nerfed faster... yes heimer bot.Riot dont give a fuck about top+they dont know how do anything top.So pick like vayne top heimer ryze cassio vlad kennen azir grasp GP teemo even malzahar or khartus wont be touched

xelakerDec 5, 20192 votes

low pick and winrates...

Hi im 12Dec 5, 20191 votes

by worst thing "any melee can ever face" you mean some juggernauts, right?

Minimac2000Dec 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApEGbUXh,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2019-12-05T19:00:14.223+0000)

by worst thing "any melee can ever face" you mean some juggernauts, right?

I think he means all tanks and most juggernauts. Ad fighters generally have some tools to get on top of her and make her regret the pick. I.e. yasuo, camille, irelia and trynd probably have less (but not no) problem with ranged tops, but as someone who plays a champion that pretty much instaloses to them, I get the frustration

Hi im 12Dec 6, 20191 votes

malph, maokai, ornn are all good into her, sion can out trade her if he goes e max as well. for juggernauts she only really beats darius and voli but who tf plays voli top in 2k19

Minimac2000Dec 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApEGbUXh,comment-id=000f00000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T01:55:32.460+0000)

malph, maokai, ornn are all good into her, sion can out trade her if he goes e max as well. for juggernauts she only really beats darius and voli but who tf plays voli top in 2k19

Maokai will get absolutely shit on lol. Ornn might do enough damage to be scary, but he really doesn't have the sustain to teade and survive and Malphite will win if he builds ap and or waits till 6 to exist in lane. Juggernauts: voli, darius, illaoi, cho gath all get destroyed hard. Singed doesn't interact either way, but it's not ideal for him. Urgot does mediocre into her about even. And mordekaiser hard wins from level 6 until she buys qss, so exactly the same as morde does into every lane lol

Hi im 12Dec 6, 20191 votes

I mean I don't see how cho or illaoi would ever lose lane to vayne unless the vayne is challenger and you're plat but I guess you're entitled to your opinion? the stats and every good top laners personal experience would disagree with you but eh.

Minimac2000Dec 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApEGbUXh,comment-id=000f0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T04:15:08.665+0000)

I mean I don't see how cho or illaoi would ever lose lane to vayne unless the vayne is challenger and you're plat but I guess you're entitled to your opinion? the stats and every good top laners personal experience would disagree with you but eh.

You don't see how the tank with infinitely scaling hp would ever lose to the champ that hard counters him by ignoring it all and kills him in 4 autos anyway? hmmmmm Sure if snowball existed on summoners rift cho would prob win lane, but as is no semi competent vayne will ever get hit by a cho q when they can just roll away

Hi im 12Dec 6, 20191 votes

no semi competent vayne will ever get hit by a cho q when they can just roll away

what is glacial augment, what is silence to prevent roll, what are slowing spikes

The Swift YordleDec 5, 20191 votes

Or how about they change vaynes W to be a passive that every 3rd auto is a free additional auto that does 30%/35%\40%/45%\50% of her normal auto dmg.

Instead of her Brain dead % dmg that does true dmg bullshit that you can be bad at her and win.

DeformedByRitoDec 5, 20191 votes

Heyy, at least we got alcoves, so now Vayne can kite you infinitely! XD

UwhtaznDec 6, 20191 votes

Fucking Huni introducing ADC Top meta. How?

First, he played TOP in LCS
And now we see this bullshit off-meta Vayne mains that can't win bot, going top.

Tokishi7Dec 6, 20191 votes

There are a few top laners can match her, but yeah, definitely are limited on what you can play, and even the ones that can play against her get punished for the smallest mistake when trading with her.

Garson211Dec 6, 20191 votes

Did you heard about "freezing lane" and enemy junglers?I have look at yor acc and you play Vlad top so what have you know about mele vs Vayne /range matchup? Im not talking about iron elo where ppl braindead pushing lanes and ignoring macro and micro game.I m sure many top players wil agree that all range champs should be kicked from top asap coz its just toxic to play vs

NodirjonSattarovDec 6, 20191 votes

Freeze the lane, set up a gank. Probably pertains to almost every ranged champions that goes toplane. Vayne also can't push the wave fast enough, therefore cannot break the freeze.

Garson211Dec 6, 20191 votes

Menwhile enemy jungler will gank bot and take drake because he dont care about vayne top auto win vs mele.Yy try to freeze as a mundo XD or any male.Come close to minions 1/4 hp gone with 3 aa boosted by press the attack

DeathBurstDec 6, 20191 votes

Oh no, Trista is even worse. But Vayne is a close second.

LovelleDec 7, 20191 votes

The answer used to be defensive counter-building (i.e. armor/health). Taking all the armor, health regen and %damage reduction in the defensive runes/masteries would allow you to at least survive in lane against her. However Riot, for reasons that escape me, decided you shouldn't be allowed to rush reistances into a bad matchup and succeed. As a result, you still get shredded no matter what you do.

Just got to pick a champ that can close the gap AND burst her down. Alternatively, pick someone that can lock her down when the jungler/mid comes to gank.

Counterbuilding just doesn't work like it should unless you're rushing damage.