I think all Twitch needs in terms of nerfs are some base stat adjustments.

Malicious Metal·Oct 29, 2017·25 votes·1,672 views

As an ADC that's supposed to be weak early game Twitch doesn't have the usual 325 MS and low base HP like other Marksmen in his design space have. He's simply too good early game for how monstrous his mid and late game are.

Punishing him early should be easier and actually impact his performance.

Just my two cents on the matter, Preseason is on the horizon but if he remains somewhat problematic I think a slap on his base stats is what should put him in line.

36 Comments

Teridax68Oct 29, 201723 votes

The OP makes a valid point that Twitch has above-average early stats for a hypercarry, and I agree that bringing him more in line with the rest could help curb his snowballing. However, I don't entirely think Twitch's issues can be resumed to just typical hypercarry ADC problems. Sure, lowering his base movement speed and HP could help make him less of a priority, but at the end of the day he's still a marksman capable of bursting the whole enemy team down from stealth. Nerfing him could make him less of an issue, but ultimately Riot needs to figure out whether he's an anti-crowd teamfighting ADC (in which case he shouldn't be so good at dueling), or a ranged assassin (in which case he shouldn't have great DPS or AoE). Right now he has the strengths of both, and as mentioned in the OP, he doesn't even really have the early game weakness to justify that either. I'd support the changes listed in the OP as short-term adjustments to Twitch, though I still feel he'd eventually need a rework.

KennysDreamGirlOct 29, 20177 votes

i say just rework him..he will never be healthy the way his kit is..they either have to nerf him to unplayable or change him

Kitsunemimi AhriOct 29, 20171 votes

Are you trying to do Blizzard "buff"?

AirKingNeoOct 29, 20171 votes

Revert the W change that gave him waveclear. He's pretty much fine that after you do the ADC item nerfs that we should have.

Ashen RiderOct 30, 20172 votes

Here's my two cents on how to push Twitch towards either identity:

Teamfighting ADC: Make E do percent health damage instead of flat, remove bonus AD from ult Assassin: Would probably require a rework of his ultimate

Sire HippingtonOct 29, 20178 votes

First off, i think the 'adc are supposed to have a weak early to justify an absurd late' concept is not healthy for the game overall. It was fine for a class to have such a specific powercurve in the beginning whe we didn't have as much champs, but by now it really limits the design of adc and the overall game.

As for twitch specifically, i think he needs some bigger changes to reach an healthy spot. The big problem with him is that his stealth creates high pick potential and allows him to snowball advantages and beeing a huge threat vs splitpushers. The natural answer to that would be grouping up so he can't ambush isolated target, and this is where it gets dirty, as his ult is one if not the most potent teamfigthing abillities amongst all adc, allowing him to decimate grouped opponents in no time. As a result, you can't really play the map and splitpush vs his stealth, yet you also can't really group and fight because of his absurd ult, so once twitch gets going, you have basicaly no options to answer him in the macro play.

Tik115Oct 29, 20172 votes

Having champions weak at certain periods of the game is limiting?

I'm sorry but thats the entire part of a champions strength and weakness, for example in the past (Pre-ADC Update) if you picked Caitlynn you know you were going to have to keep the enemy ADC shut down because that other ADC might be a late game champion and you'll lose out to it Thats the entire part with counter picks you chose a champion which works against the enemy team WHICH INCLUDES PERIODS WHEN YOUR CHAMP IS STRONG AND THERE'S IS WEAK.

Your whole "Hypercarries shouldn't have a weak early game" is essentially saying "Pick the champ with the most absurd late game" which in itself is VERY unhealthy for the game because how long before we get champions with sub mindlessly absurd late game that it just becomes a "Blink and its over" kind of fight?

Sire HippingtonOct 29, 20172 votes

i never said chapions haveing a weak period is a bad thing, nor did i ever say something specifically about hypercarries.

The problem with ADC is that ALL adc, the entier class, have a really strong lategame simply by itemisation, whcih in return means they can#t be allowed to have a good early. Whenever the even more lategame focused adc(hypercarries) are strong(enough) early, they dominate the meta. Whenever they aren't, the earlygame focused adc dominate the meta because they still are more powerfull than nearly any other champ that isn't an adc later on. Puvercurves are an important thin, and they should varie from champ to champ to really creat diversity and design space, but right now most classes are forced into certain powercurves(mostly by itemisation) with little room for variation, and adc are the most prominent example of that.

Tik115Oct 29, 20171 votes

Well then it sounds like Carries need to be reworked to not be an essential pick so they can be altered acordingly

good luck getting riot to do that

PennsOct 29, 20174 votes

I still want his Q to not give the move speed boost when someone can see him tho

PoskeOct 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I still want his Q to not give the move speed boost when someone can see him tho

he would spot control wards easier thats all..

NorthernRedStarOct 29, 20173 votes

Just fix his interaction with Runaan's and we're gucci for now. Make him earn those juicy team-wide spread-shots.

Jeanne fan clubOct 29, 20173 votes

Riot needs to look at crit instead tbh. If crit didn't give twitch 3 shot capacity with 2 items then he wouldn't be that much of a problem

InstaPoppyOct 29, 20172 votes

I think static shiv was healthier as a waveclear item than a burst item, especialy when combined with rapid fire cannon and you get chunked for half your health from miles away.

lofi n chillhopOct 29, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AnOEk5fM,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-10-29T10:19:55.354+0000)

As an ADC that's supposed to be weak early game Twitch doesn't have the usual 325 MS and low base HP like other Marksmen in his design space have. He's simply too good early game for how monstrous his mid and late game are.

Punishing him early should be easier and actually impact his performance.

Just my two cents on the matter, Preseason is on the horizon but if he remains somewhat problematic I think a slap on his base stats is what should put him in line.

it's pretty easy to bully twitch out of lane right now. I rarely ban him because I only fail to push him outa lane if he's with soraka.

MuzétOct 29, 20172 votes

As an ADC that's supposed to be weak early game Twitch doesn't have the usual 325 MS and low base HP like other Marksmen in his design space have.

It's because he doesn't share design space with any other Marksmen. He is a Hypercarry but he's also got an assassin pattern through is stealth and that's why he succeed a lot as a jungler.

I don't mind his base stats. What I do mind is his Q. (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xFGFfPYv-twitchs-qs-radius) Rengar's ultimate got a detection radius a bit bigger than his leap range. Evelynn's passive got a similar radius.

Yet Twitch got a radius inferior to his auto-attack range for no reason. Riot should start by adjusting his Q detection radius then nerf it from there (starting with AS buff reduction or ult bonus AD reduction).

DauntOct 29, 20172 votes

Nerf crit itemization, increase his stealth radius. Boom, Twitch is no longer the problem and neither are other hypercarries.

KaìjuOct 29, 20172 votes

Not every hyper carry is a problem though, only some of them. I think that indicates more that not every one of them should be altered. Jinx is really good for a model, she has really really really good damage in a teamfight with Hurricane rockets but she's still not meta because her lane phase is bad, even though she fits in the model of hyper carry with Twitch and the others. Ashe at six items also becomes somewhat of a hyper carry due to having 10% damage extra free on her passive so she gets just a little more bang for her buck at full build.

DauntOct 29, 20172 votes

Anything that can abuse RFC + Shiv is beyond retarded which is why Jinx is not that meta atm. Twitch is able to bypass that by having the long range steroid on his R alongside the stealth. But he's also significantly weaker in the early game comparing him to a Trist for example. A solution can be to remove the RFC + Shiv stacking or to just nerf Shiv. But something regarding that stupid build that allows ADCs to do BPS needs to change.

KaìjuOct 29, 20171 votes

But that begs the question, why can't Jinx abuse it? What about her kit makes her unable to use the combo, even if she takes warlords as her primary Keystone.

DauntOct 29, 20171 votes

She works better with aoe damage. Almost like asking why does Twitch not abuse it. The only reason Jinx is picked is because of her scaling aoe damage in team fights. But she's outclassed by Twitch who can do the same job with more range and safety.

SalsonOct 29, 20172 votes

Well yeah, Twitch only does damage. You nerf his damage to balance him.

Personally, I'd nerf his ult base damage increase. Nerfing his early would make him a passive farmer, effectively making botlane shit for all 4 people involved.

Handy Sandy Oct 29, 20172 votes

bursting a whole team is not balancable. He's a marksman/assassin, he should be doing single target high dps from stealth.

Rıots Bad ClientOct 29, 20172 votes

Here are my suggestions for potential 'nerfs'

~~Option 1~~- Nerfing the early W slow shouldn't throughout the whole thing. Instead have it slow on first impact.

~~Option 2~~- Stealth Nerf Increase his detection radius on his stealth Just little of his base auto attack range.

~~Option 3~~- Out of stealth Nerf make it that the first auto out of stealth deal only 80% of the initial dmg (Or make it so that It Can't Crit even at 100%)

~~Option 4~~- The core problem Item Nerf item 3085 radius ( much smaller cone) <--Not just nerfing twitch with this; but I see this as the route of the issue(IMO) (crit Being the bigger issue)

adc's Are REALLY good in team fights. Giving them AOE/Wave Clear and special interactions makes them feel to strong.

~~Option 5~~-BlitzCrank Strat Have this Ambush slow you movement speed by 25% when you get out of stealth. (I personally do not like this, but its still option)

~~Option 6~~- Smelly Have a singed poison like trail that you can see even in the fog of war(as long as your inrange to see it) while hes in stealth (doesn't deal damage)... but

~~Option 7~~- Some crazy shit Make it that his autos deal less damage. like by a lot. And make it that so the more stacks that they have the more damage his autos will deal. (So at the 3rd stack he will do avarage damage.)

And when his E is on Cool down, he can't add anymore stacks on any other target. (and to maybe have it worth Pressing E, When you press E the true damage will Deal double the damage, and expires faster.

Dani El PezgloboOct 29, 20172 votes

he should get -50 less range so he is easily punished on early game, more less like vayne

Brain Errör 404Oct 29, 20172 votes

Having played with the new runes/mastery set up on the PBE, I have to say that the base buffs and reduction of all the free stats make early game SO much more bearable. It's nowhere NEAR as bad as it is right now. They're just gonna wait for preseason to hit. They'll have some adjusting to do, but as things stand, the game (in the early sense of it) is in a MUCH better spot atm.

OHminusOct 29, 20171 votes

I think his base HP should be nerfed. Base MS is ok, as long as Q duration is nerfed. Seriously, that thing lasts 14 seconds, which is WAY too long and forgiving.

FeathermaneOct 29, 20171 votes

Base stat adjustments like: stealth duration reduced to 0.

NymzoOct 29, 20171 votes

I mean I always wondered which an assassin (Twitch is actually an assassin, it's not a meme) has this kind of aoe ability.

I would have to point out that the only other assassin to have an aoe ult is Katarina and she has to be close to her enemies to use her ult unlike Twitch.

I guess Riot will have to add Twitch to what I call '' update the failure updates/new champions'' aka make a update like RekSai Kindred Azir

KaìjuOct 29, 20171 votes

Thought something similar yesterday. His early game is stop spicy for how spicy his late game is. I think his mana costs should go up more personally. His E is a big part of his damage rotation with popping stacks so I think it should cost more as his signature damage spell in the early game.

McsquzzyOct 29, 20171 votes

make his passive heal the enemy

IpolsOct 29, 20171 votes

Yes let's do movement speed at level 1= -155

SpecterVonBarenOct 29, 20171 votes

Earlier this season he wasn't a good pick because his lanning phase was just terrible but now its bearable at least and in this current meta it doesn't last long. I think he does need a bit of an early game nerf but I think he also needs a small late game nerf as well rather than one larger nerf to his early game.

Yma SOct 29, 20171 votes

Leagues stealth mechanics are just awful

In Dota Riki is permanently invisible except attacking and everyone can get an item to go invisible and no one complains. This is because stealth detection is easily accessible and reliable.