Can we stop pretending we can actually balance Morde with his current kit without him needing Rylais

Malicious Metal··127 votes·5,692 views

The main problem with Mordekaiser's kit is that it offers extreme damage, strong durability and absolutely bare bones utility. His kit is absolutely outdated and comes from a time where mobility was a rarity and he was able to work with being a champion with no CC.

Rylais has been a staple item on him for ages, always helping him stay revenant due to the mobility creep. The only time he didn't need Rylais was when DFG was still around and he could nuke the enemy from 800 range with a quick DFG->Ult->Ignite

But those days are over, he's a Juggernaut who relies on sticking to people to deal damage and be a threat.

Now you may say, let's just give him ONE slow on his kit and he'll work without Rylais.

WRONG.

With Rylais Mordekaiser gets FOUR slows in his kit and an entire 10 second slow on his ultimate, making him able to actually stick to people and do Juggernaut things. If you give him only one Slow he'll be trash since he relies on people to stand close to him, let them get shredded by his W and get his three Q's off.

Darius, the Juggernaut who works the best out of the current roster has ONE heavy slow, a ranged DISPLACEMENT and synergies really well with black cleaver, making him insanely sticky and able to stick to opponents long enough to dunk them.

Compare Morde to other Juggernauts and you'll see that he lacks the things that make THEM viable. Morde relies one hundred and one percent on Rylais being there for him, it's his crutch and breaking it will completely dumpster him.

Try balancing a champion with NO utility/mobility and INSANE damage without breaking him? It's really frigging difficult without making him extremely oppressive or totally useless.

I'll say it again; Mordekaiser NEEDS an entire VGU in order to function without Rylais and even then he'd probably still build it as the only AP juggernaut.

I know his state isn't exactly the easiest to balance and Riot did the best they could with the Juggernaut rework but it was jut too small scope. Stop trying to balance his current kit without MAJOR skill reworks.

Just wanted to point that out. His current state, while not ideal is the most balanced he's been ever since the Juggernaut rework. He works decently well, has great matchups and is hella fun to play.

Changes to Rylais won't mean much UNLESS it no longer becomes an item worth buying on him. If that happens Riot better not do the same mistake twice and try giving him minuscule changes.

If they go with the (in my opinion really bad) idea to make Rylais a squishy MANA/CDR option Mordekaiser will need a rework And fast! Don't leave him in an unplayable state for over a year.

Seriously, this whole talk about Rylais and not knowing IF it will ruin Morde sucks. I want to know details as soon as possible so I can either stop worrying or get ready to bury Morde and arrange his funeral.

152 Comments

Over Innsmouth18 votes

Only AP Juggernaut

U wot m8? Vladimir

In any case, you're totally right on everything. I'm really hoping that Riot gets their act together and returns Rylai's to when it wasnt a problem. After all, it's a combination of the massive AP value + the slow that's causing the issues, not the items value as a defensive option. Emphasize the defensive option, tone down the offensive aspects.

Sahn Uzal17 votes

u flock m8? Swain

It Hertz When IP12 votes

Chogath Wanna go?

TheYordleInferno5 votes

wat up Rumble

D2Vincent4 votes

Heyoo? Karthus

It Hertz When IP5 votes

Karthus isn't a juggernaut...

D2Vincent7 votes

well neither is Rumble, Swain, or Vlad tbh, they ARE however, considered Battle Mages, which are tankier than standard mages, but perhaps not quite as much as actual tanks.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Swain and Rumble yeah, but every Cho'Gath I see outside of ARAM builds RoA, then all tank items. He's definitely a Juggernaut.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

Too much hard CC for that.

Narasimha1 votes

I mean, Skarner's a juggernaut, and he has more hard cc than cho.

crippler381 votes

none of it is aoe though is it? Or ranged.

50000000000000002 votes

But the point of a juggernaut is that they do a lot of damage when close, but have difficulty getting close. Hard CC is fine, it just needs to be not long range. So because of that, I have some reservations calling Cho'Gath a juggernaut. His Q is pretty long ranged for a juggernaut, imo. Maybe a secondary juggernaut, with primary battle mage?

crippler381 votes

all but cho gath's ultimate and auto attacks are long ranged and even then his AAs are longer ranged (if he hits something else) than the majority of melee attacks.

My point was that skarner's a juggernaut because not only his is cc short range, and single target, but his damage once he's in a fight is huge.

I'd say cho gath could be a battle mage, but I wouldn't ever call someone with 2 hard ccs, both of which with respectable range, a juggernaut.

Awoof1 votes

To be fair, riot admitted reworking Skarner as a juggernaut was probably the wrong direction.

crippler381 votes

that's probably because they did it by giving him zones of 'you fight me here you die' and otherwise it's 'I'm weaker than normal and will either wreck yo shit or die feeling like a gimped mo fo'

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

{quoted}

But the point of a juggernaut is that they do a lot of damage when close, but have difficulty getting close. Hard CC is fine, it just needs to be not long range. So because of that, I have some reservations calling Cho'Gath a juggernaut. His Q is pretty long ranged for a juggernaut, imo. Maybe a secondary juggernaut, with primary battle mage?

Cho is unique. and the weakness of a juggernaut is nothing when facing half of the champions in the game,which are melee

Awoof1 votes

Reworking Skarner as a juggernaut was also a mistake, as riot realized.

Meep Man12 votes

I hope Mordekaiser is changed as well. I hope they replace his current Passive to be something not reliant on dealing damage, BUT keep him as one of the biggest damage threats in the game when his damage goes off. Like, make him like Sion, where everything can be dodged, but EVERYTHING HURTS. Like, EVERYTHING. Everything can chunk someone and really wreck an enemy who isn't just a brick wall. His current basic attack animations and big mace REALLY make me want to see him go full pre-death Sauron and just swing his mace to send people flying through the air, but after a wind-up.

Now that I think of it, pre-death Sauron is basically a huge inspiration for what Mordekaiser should become. Extremely brutal combat style with strong hints that necromantic/evil magic is being mixed into it to give it even more power. Like, powerful attacks that would probably already cripple an IRL tank without the magic being mixed in, but magic is mixed simply to make victory for his enemies even more hopeless. I see Morde as someone who doesn't just win against his enemies, but leaves absolutely nothing behind to salvage as well. Not even a necromancer could work with what he leaves behind. That should be what his kit reflects. Keep him still a bit of lumbering, slow character that also isn't a huge CC threat for his team (but has some for the sake of gameplay health), but make every hit feel like it was from a true god of death. Mordekaiser doesn't rip the souls of his enemies from his body to serve him, he already knows he could take on army alone. He rips the souls from his enemies to both A.) make sure even the soul of his victims isn't salvageable and B.) to defeat his enemies emotionally as their comrades very souls come back to kill them. THAT IS MORDEKAISER! He obliterates his enemies entirely, mind, body, and soul!

XxnbQKViy01 votes

I like your idea. I'll add here my own.

"IMO Mordekaiser could be something like the Wild Hunt revenants from The Witcher. Does anybody know Imlerith? Big metal warrior with hugh mace that is slow but deals devastating damage? They also control ice (even freeze things sometimes), wich could give Mordekaiser CC in form of slow or stuns. I look at Mordekaiser and also see the Lich King from Warcraft.

That is what I dream Mordekaiser should be. A Giant Metal Revenant from the Cold Northern Mountains/Forests (wich is really metal music by itself) that brings cold death to his foes, crushing their body and soul. This is fear incarnate. Nothing is scarier than frozen death. He cold also get some form of fear mechanic on his kit, as CC.

They don't have to force him out of the Shadow Isles for this to work (lore-wise). Maybe he started in the North but ended up there for some reason. This green-greyish thematic from the shadows isles is actually something I'm a little tired of on every Shadow Isles champion. It makes them look TOO similar to each other.

Icey death in the form of Metal. This is what Mordekaiser needs."

Burnt Iron King9 votes

I sure hope Riot will jut go with the other, better, option and just retune Rylais into the niche item it was supposed to be. A bit beefier, lower slow and less AP

Hell, I really wish they're going to realize the other one brings way too many problems with it.

Besides, on a personal level I'd want these changes not to influence your Morde too much, thanks to you I got gold this season while having been silver ever since I started League.

Shaponja7 votes

DO you even realise the more you cry on boards the less they care? 4 or more Morde QQ posts in 1-2 days? Yawn

Malicious Metal43 votes

Implying they care to begin with.

Can't get lower than 0

Irelia Bot2 votes

If 0 is indifference then -5 would be wanting to make him worse.

Saianna5 votes

If 0 is indifference then -5 would be wanting to make him worse.

Yeah. They kinda did. With that retarded rework.

Irelia Bot1 votes

This rabbit hole goes much deeper

bill843 votes

certainlyT laughs evilly

WiegrafOfValor9 votes

I care as much as he do, and "crying" on boards is one of the reason so many ppl on the community likes him.

Shaponja5 votes

ye and when i cry about mine all i get is downvotes and will to remove the post.

Velzard of Koz5 votes

Well... Not to be rude to anyone here... But that's the magic of Boards fame. Also, it's true that If other Juggernauts whose weakness is supposed to be making it hard to reach the enemy can have tools which can temporarily delete the disadvantage, Morde should have one too, one quite stronger than W, without needing to build Rylai's to get it atrifically.

Baron of Bread4 votes

Malicious Metal earned his boards fame with well thought out and constructive posts about the Mordekaiser changes that lead up to the Juggernaut patch and after. His "crying" was what got him the boards fame.

SSJTribe1 votes

iirc, he was also the one who suggested the name "Iron Revenant" for Mord, which Riot really liked and accepted as his title.

Baron of Bread4 votes

That was not MM, but I do not remember the name of the person who did. I think if you look back through the patch notes you might find who it was.

Ralanr1 votes

It wasn't MM, but it came about through one of his threads.

Honestly MM's threads got popular not because of his determination (though he was determined) but because of how he went from straight up insulting Riot to actually trying to converse on the problem. He knew that Mordekaiser didn't work as what they pushed him towards, and the community ended up following him as their main vocal point.

His posts were actually a subject I used in my final college paper on digital communities.

HateDaddy5 votes

If a champions success and viability hinges on the balance of one item, I'd argue that champion has several significant design flaws.

I don't think riots direction should be to make it a mana/CDR item either but mordes problems as a champion are rather glaring.

Samuel4445 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AlmfAhvE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-09T15:17:29.849+0000)

Rylais has been a staple item on him for ages, always helping him stay revenant due to the mobility creep.

Anyone going to comment about that stealth pun?

Rebonack4 votes

It feels like there are a few champs that Riot just can't seem to figure out what to do with. Riot tries something new and different, it falls through, then it gets crushed to the point that the champ is left languishing. Sometimes their die-hard players find a way to still make them work. Sometimes they don't.

The worst part is when we warn Riot exactly what this or that change will result in since we know our respective champs so well, but Riot continues down their path to disaster and then acts surprised when everything falls apart.

Kog is in much the same boat as Morde in that regard. A champion who's balanced, for the most part, all around the damage. And Riot seems bent on balancing them purely around that damage without giving them a few more balancing levers to tweak. The only time said champs are desirable picks is when their damage is so horrifically overwhelming that it's flatly unhealthy for the game.

I feel bad for you. It's absolutely awful being left in the dark about your favorite champion. And it's just as bad to be excluded from the conversation about them. I really hope Riot makes good on their promise to communicate with us more, because a conversation about champs with fractured identities would go a long way in reassuring players.

Fenikkusu12 votes

They won't communicate with us more, I'm betting in the next year coms will be getting even worse, because Riot has the policy of Blizzard all those years ago. 'You think you want that, but you don't, you think you know what your doing, but you don't.'

Malicious Metal4 votes

I'm having flashbacks from CertainlyT "communicating" with us about Morde's Rework.

Wukong X Ahri2 votes

http://www2.pic-upload.de/img/31777228/mordetriggered.jpg

real talk tho i kind of put Morde on the side line. With all the new bugs and the soon to be gutting of a major core item i think it was time to learn other champs for the time being.

hopefully soon Morde will be in a great place one day. Hes in a ok place but lets be real you can pick other champs in be in better places.

Jbels4 votes

I honestly believe the rework Mordekaiser needed has already been achieved with Yorick. Every time I've played Yorick, I've thought to myself, "Huhn, this feels like what Morde would feel like if his rework actually did him justice"

Malicious Metal4 votes

I kinda feel the same way.

Though Morde would be a tad more focused on dealing consistent damage, shred the enemies with his aura of malice and metal and rip their bloody souls out.

But yeah, he really fits the bill of a necromancer Juggernaut

Jbels2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AlmfAhvE,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-10-09T16:28:55.875+0000)

I kinda feel the same way.

Though Morde would be a tad more focused on dealing consistent damage, shred the enemies with his aura of malice and metal and rip their bloody souls out.

But yeah, he really fits the bill of a necromancer Juggernaut

That part feels especially shitty. They wrote themselves into a corner creatively by creating not one, but two different necromancer type characters that are immobile high damage and tanky threats with minimal CC (three I guess if you count Karthus with a Roa and a Rylai, but he doesn't really raise anyone from the dead, he sort of just...is dead). I wonder if they just have no idea how to give Morde a full relaunch without it clashing with Yorick's visual identity

rtbf2256182414 votes

Ok we get it, it's getting annoying. Riot won't listen to what one guy has to say if they haven't already.

XxnbQKViy03 votes

IMO Mordekaiser could be something like the** Wild Hunt** revenants from The Witcher. Does anybody know Imlerith? Big metal warrior with hugh mace that is slow but deals devastating damage? They also control ice (even freeze things sometimes), wich could give Mordekaiser CC in form of slow or stuns. I look at Mordekaiser and also see the Lich King from Warcraft.

That is what I dream Mordekaiser should be. A Giant Metal Revenant from the Cold Northern Mountains/Forests (wich is really metal music by itself) that brings cold death to his foes, crushing their body and soul. This is fear incarnate. Nothing is scarier than frozen death. He cold also get some form of fear mechanic on his kit, as CC.

They don't have to force him out of the Shadow Isles for this to work (lore-wise). Maybe he started in the North but ended up there for some reason. This green-greyish thematic from the shadows isles is actually something I'm a little tired of on every Shadow Isles champion. It makes them look TOO similar to each other.

Icey death in the form of Metal. This is what Mordekaiser needs.

Big Lincoln2 votes

why do you rehash the same thread every day

not saying I disagree with you but I always know I'll see an MM post about Mordekaiser whenever I look at the front page

imo mord might actually have more success as like, the Corki of juggernauts. give him heavy mixed damage (afaik this would be unique to him), compliment his theme of magic and metal. making him just full AP would be kind of bad since we have other AP juggernauts Vladimir Swain Chogath who have CC and range on him. makes him kind of mediocre in my opinion, he'll only get played if he's objectively the best choice out of both AP bruisers and juggernauts.

Melledoneus2 votes

I think Mordekaiser needs a band-aid buff before tackling a VGU.

Giving his ultimate a draining effect that drains mana/energy/increases CDs would be a really cool but broken as hell idea.

I'm thinking maybe that Mordekaiser should have an "Earthquake" mechanic that when he slams his mace on the ground, the area becomes impossible to dash out of, similar to Poppy's W. It could also slow or conditionally slow, idk. Kinda hard to think of a giant metal man with a mace having ranged CC except for maybe throwin his mace at someone and breaking their legs.

HazyCloud72 votes

How many threads about Mordekaiser and Rylai's are you going to make? He's not the only champion reliant on it. Why exactly should he take precedence over any of the other champions reliant on it?

As i've said before I hope they take your suggestion to split it into two items (one for mages, one for ap bruisers) but mordekaiser is not the only champion that NEEDS Rylai's. Without it Viktor would suck too. Zyra, Malz, Brand, Heimer...all of those would take big hits.

This board is turning into a mordekaiser support group

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

...all of those champs have built in hard CC though.

J Eevo1 votes

The point is that Morde is the only champion that relies on Rylai because his kit has ZERO cc in itself, whether every other champion has at least a slow in one of their abilities.

Dengeden2 votes

I always figured there would be a way to play him like an actual juggernaut. item 3742 item 3143

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