What was Riot's balance team thinking, when they nerfed Pantheon over Lee Sin?

Kalarepa·Dec 10, 2014·23 votes·2,541 views

As it says.

@edit They changed dragon. Why did they still need to nerf Pantheon?

38 Comments

Sir ArmaMalumDec 10, 201425 votes

Figure out a way for Lee Sin to reliably solo dragon at level 2.

Earl EulrichDec 10, 20141 votes

as if solokilling the drake that early would have been anything reliable outside of bronze...(and with the q and w you could dodge a lot of the fireballs actually, too bad they changed the system - I´m fairly sure it had been doable with good timing + a ward). Changing the Drake-Attacks t odisable Panths Passive against them had been enough to stop him from even thinking about Soloing drake, putting a (major-)nerf, by severly lowering his AS-scaling that hadn´t been that great anyway, ontop of that is just uncalled for.

Sir ArmaMalumDec 10, 20147 votes

iirc the justification for the AS nerf was also to force panth to spend more mana to proc his passive as much as he has been. Solo dragon or no, his passive allowed him a lot more healthy clear than anyone else with comparable damage potential. With this change he still can, but at the price of being low on mana when ganking. At least theoretically, Panth's passive is one of those mechanics that I'm sure someone will figure out another way to hyper-optimize.

Earl EulrichDec 11, 20143 votes

Which is what keeps him barely viable....Panth is all about the early-game - unlike Lee sin he truly drops hard in the lategame. So if you take that away from him you just take him out of ever been seen in serious games again. He might need a full rework, I give you that - but outright olafing him and leaving Lee as it is is really really unjust.

Sir ArmaMalumDec 11, 20141 votes

He might need a full rework, I give you that - but outright olafing him and leaving Lee as it is is really really unjust.

Keep in mind a Lee rework was attempted (and personally I liked it). Of course the community backlash stopped it in its tracks. So it's either unjust for other champions to give Lee special treatment because of an absolutely rabid fanbase or unjust to a large portion of the community who enjoys playing him. It's 'unjust' tosomeone when talking about Lee, as his main strength isn't his numbers but his core mechanic's (mobility) effectiveness. There's rarely if ever a middle ground in a situation like this, as you have to change the mechanics to change the problem.

TengrichanDec 10, 201411 votes

Didn't you guys see the actual patch notes about DRAGON and Pantheon changes? Muh dragon solo holy shit,learn to read.Dragon attack is no longer dodgeable,blockable anymore YET he still received some nerfs on top of that.

ProeliumDec 10, 20141 votes

Yeah... that didn't make any sense.

I like the change to his animation speed though...

however as a top lane Panth main I can see that little bit of attack speed losing me some fights early and that's not ok.

AkinameDec 10, 20148 votes

as if you aa people to death as pantheon

DuroxxigarDec 10, 20141 votes

You may not do that to kill people a lot as Panth. But I've won more than enough times because I COULD AA 1 or 2 more times.

FiendOfOneDec 10, 20146 votes

Soloing dragon.

lightdragoon88Dec 10, 20141 votes

Soloing dragon.

This.

OysterothDec 10, 20143 votes

Yeah this is pretty much the reason. I'm not sure it was necessary to hit him in the rest of the jungle as well, especially since dragon fireballs are now spells, but it's not a huge overall nerf aside from the dragon.

And Lee is essentially immune to nerfs, so that's why he doesn't.

OrangesilkDec 10, 20143 votes

But he became unable to solo dragon at lvl 2 just with the changes to dragon, reducing his base AS by A LOT is unnecessary kicking of a dead dog.

Colgate GatorDec 10, 20143 votes

Because he could solo Baron at lvl 2 effectively while taking zero damage.

LarasoDec 10, 20141 votes

Well, if Pantheon is only level two at the point in the game where Baron spawns, he has other problems to worry about. Namely the fact that he was afk for the entire game and is super behind.

Remlap1223Dec 10, 20143 votes

As much as I hate Lee Sin's design to it's core (even though he's not even in the top 5 of champions that I can't stand), Pantheon was soloing dragon at level 2. SivHD reliably did it at level 1. Now Pantheon, Fiora, and Jax don't just get a free pass with dragon. Lee Sin is still powerful as fuck, but he's never been able to solo dragon that early.

KingsgraveDec 10, 20143 votes

This is coming from a pantheon main, but he is far easier to play and had a lot more reward with minimal risk compared to Lee Sin. He is still going to be a good jungler, he just won't auto do dragon whenever he wants and he has a slightly harder clear now.

JustMyBassCannonDec 10, 20142 votes

That Pantheon is a problem that they need to fix right now.

Lee Sin is a problem they've acknowledged a while back, but while he creates problems, none of them are currently as game-shaking as other priorities.

SolaxoDec 10, 20142 votes

That's the problem, they aren't thinking at all

warpenguin555Dec 10, 20142 votes

Because Lee cant solo dragon at level 2 or 3 like pantheon could.

MatezoideDec 10, 20142 votes

God damn it people, they did not need to nerf Pantheon.

They already made it so he cant block Dragon's attacks. This nerf is complete overkill.

Ah well, now. Lee Sin is back to being the strongest early game jungler, soooo....working as intended. MUH SKILLCAP

AtheosisXDec 10, 20142 votes

Why'd they nerf Warwick so hard after nerfing Devourer and Skirmisher? Because Riot likes to overnerf champs that aren't called Lee Sin.

Silents429Dec 10, 20142 votes

We talk about a slight nerf to pantheon after the dragon gets nerfed but not about Warwick who got nerfed harder into the ground, along with the item. Which they also said had a bug where it was dealing "Pure Damage"

junglerboy16Dec 10, 20141 votes

Warwick is not nerfed into the ground, he still has amazing sustain in the jungle and has plenty of utility (his ult is a CC primarily, not an assassination tool).

Silents429Dec 10, 20141 votes

Amazing sustain? Slow ass clearing. I don't think him staying healthy in the jungle on the first clear matters as much considering any champion with the tier 2 jungle item is perfectly sustained as well.

His ult is not CC primarily its used for catching escaping foes, or anyone off guard, you can argue thats CC but really its not its first goal. Even then, they nerfed the cooldown on his ult, and the damage, they nerfed the duration of his W so now his W isn't even as valuable as it was before.

junglerboy16Dec 10, 20141 votes

I guess viability all depends on what you value in a champion. Personally, I don't care if WW is UP, just so long as he isn't as ridiculously strong as he was. He is boring whether he is weak or strong, and being in the spotlight like this may get a fire under Riot to get his kit rework done already.

MoonshadeDec 10, 20142 votes

Lee is that OP guy that they won't change since the Lee Sin mains will kick up a perpetual shit storm, and i'm guessing no one on the riot team has been wrecked hard enough by a Lee Sin main for them to consider him toxic OP

Rune OcarinaDec 10, 20142 votes

As much as I hate Riot's favoritism to Lee Sin, I do have to admit Pantheon's nerf was well deserved.

Drunk RummateDec 10, 20142 votes

they were probably thinking

"hey, pantheon is a point and click champion that requires only proper decision-making to be played at the highest of levels. lets bring the focus of our game away from that"

and man I gotta say, I agree with that from the bottom of my heart.

junglerboy16Dec 10, 20141 votes

Cuz Lee sin isn't strong and Pantheon was totally broken with the new dragon.

ImHerVoiceDec 10, 20141 votes

he can level 1 dragon if you have above 15% bonus attack speed rofl. you can run attack speed reds with 1 attack speed quint and level 1 dragon dude.

Did you miss the videos on youtube rofl

Any other changes though were probably uneeded aside from the dragon thing.

KalarepaDec 10, 20145 votes

I'm aware of this, but they changed dragon. Pantheon wouldn't be able to solo it anyway, but they still nerf him just in case. And their explanation is "he's too strong in jungle". I guess Pantheon was disabled at IEM, because no one was even thinking about picking him, while Lee Sin was 100% pick/ban.

Silents429Dec 10, 20141 votes

But he was too strong in the jungle?

Baird XerxesDec 10, 20142 votes

The Panth nerf seemed quite minor, I don't think it'll be a problem

Afk Teemo WardDec 10, 20141 votes

As it says.

@edit They changed dragon. Why did they still need to nerf Pantheon?

because at pantheon's base attack speed, he literally didn't have to back until the 3rd full rotation clear on the new jungle, since if you started double golems, your shield would block the large monster's attacks reliably 3/4'ths of the time. This nerf fixed that, and put him in line with all of the other junglers.

Poldy ScarecrowDec 10, 20141 votes

Pantheon is sleeper OP imo. And he's doing really well in both top lane and the jungle atm so I'm sure a minor attack speed nerf will barely hurt him. His ability damage is practically guaranteed anyway.

Don't get me wrong, Lee definitely needs changes but that doesn't make pantheon any less deserving of a nerf.

Because Lee is too strong doesn't mean others aren't as well.

masterdragon481Dec 11, 20141 votes

I think it is interesting how much hate Lee Sin gets. Yes, he is a very popular pro pick. Yes he has good damage, utility, and mobility. BUT to accomplish what lee sin does requires a good amount of skill and there is outplay potential on BOTH sides when a lee sin is involved.

Honestly, I think this is a large majority of the reason Lee has remained mostly untouched by the nerf bat; His potential is crazy high, but there are a lot of variables involved in the execution. As opposed to pantheon who has instant hard CC on a gap closer.