If Vanguards are next, I'll really look forward to changes in defense itemization.

Ralanr·Jan 3, 2017·20 votes·1,230 views

As well as how they'll interact with offensive and anti defense itemization. I wouldn't be surprised if Riot released a new pen item during it.

33 Comments

Teridax68Jan 3, 20177 votes

Personally, I hope they switch the stats on tank items from flat to percentile amounts, e.g. +% base health, armor and MR, and adjust the base stats of tanks accordingly. Tank items are always at risk of being abused by squishies, because the same tank build will net you very similar amounts of defenses across all champions, and on top of that, some tanks have bases that feel either too similar to those of squishies, or even crappier: Shen, especially, is a prime example of a tank whose base durability is terrible simply because he's expected to build tanky thereafter and scale well (he has some of the worst armor growth in the game and his health growth is mediocre, and this is after he received massive buffs to both). Buffing the health/armor growth of tanks, perhaps even giving them bonus MR growth, could a) make sure they make better use of tanky itemization than others, especially if their items amplify bases instead of providing flat stats, b) intuitively set them apart as tanks just by looking at their bases, and c) allow them to grow in power more smoothly over the course of the game, instead of spiking hard in lane with early health/armor purchases and then hitting a wall later on once they max out on cheap items, yet still end up getting killed far too quickly.

Glory ln DeathJan 3, 20171 votes

Please, no. I generally play Sion as a tank, but I still like to play him full AD sometimes for his massive damage!

If you make tanks naturally tanky so they can scale with %base items, they'll have to remove ratios on their abilities. Otherwise, you end up with the opposite of Tankko - tanks building full damage because they can get away with it due to their high base defense stats.

reaperteaserJan 3, 20172 votes

i actually kinda want to see that happen, if only for 1 patch cycle, team tank would be so much fun

Teridax68Jan 4, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjPRcQeZ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-01-03T23:36:53.159+0000)

Please, no. I generally play Sion as a tank, but I still like to play him full AD sometimes for his massive damage!

Sion is a bit of a special case due to his health stacking, but he has notoriously terrible base health and growth as well. Making tank items amplify bases would be a good reason to increase his own base health growth as well, even if his health from W would likely have to be considered bonus health (i.e. health that wouldn't be amplified). Your full AD builds would thus be even stronger on him, because he'd have more base durability to work with.

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjPRcQeZ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-01-03T23:36:53.159+0000)

If you make tanks naturally tanky so they can scale with %base items, they'll have to remove ratios on their abilities. Otherwise, you end up with the opposite of Tankko - tanks building full damage because they can get away with it due to their high base defense stats.

Very few tanks can currently afford to build full damage, not necessarily because they're too squishy, but because they generally end up scaling pretty terribly. Even when Rylai's was a dominant item across practically all AP champions, full AP Sejuani did not make a comeback, since her AP scalings got hurt pretty bad in 4.21. Even Sion, who has a few AD scalings, doesn't scale all that well with the stat, and tends to suffer a lot (perhaps even excessively) if he ever overcommits to damage.

The other major difference is that, unlike cases like Tank Ekko, Tank Yasuo, Tank Fizz, etc., all of which have been balance nightmares that only kit changes and mini-reworks could address, tanks can easily have their damage adjusted with simple number tweaks. If Malphite suddenly starts wrecking too hard with pure AP builds, he can just have his ratios toned down, for example, and the same can be done to Sion and Poppy with their AD scalings. If the issue is specifically with tanks doing too well with full damage builds, even though their tanky builds are meant to deal good damage, then the solution should likely be to replace some of their AD/AP-to-damage ratios with health or resistance ratios, which would encourage them to go tanky for more damage.

One of the big problems with tank stats right now is that there are actually very few scalings out there for them: tanks generally have only one or two health or resistance scalings on their abilities at most, whereas damage-dealers typically have three, four or five different scalings on their kits, sometimes even more. This is in part why it's so easy for squishies to get tanky via itemization, because tank items are currently designed for a class that mostly just scales with them out of a lack of other scalings, instead of making significantly better use of them than non-tanks. We need a greater differential in tanky item effectiveness between tanks and non-tanks, and only then can tanks then be balanced around the scalings they need.

Glory ln DeathJan 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If Malphite suddenly starts wrecking too hard with pure AP builds, he can just have his ratios toned down, for example, and the same can be done to Sion and Poppy with their AD scalings.

This is the issue. If tanks' base defensive stats are increased, then any tank who can deal decent damage by building AD or AP will have to have their ratios nerfed. And for tanks to retain the full effect of tanky items while making the items "meh" for other, low defensive base champions, the tanks would need fairly significantly higher bases - meaning fairly significant nerfs to make sure damage oriented builds don't become prevalent.

Basically, tanks would be forced to build full tank. Damage builds would no longer be an option, even in game modes or ARAM.

Teridax68Jan 4, 20174 votes

I don't think you can really draw an equivalence between the value of alternative builds, and that of solving a persistent game issue that has critically affected multiple classes, not just tanks. Assassins, for example, are all saddled with shitty bases and extreme dependence on scalings because, given even decent amounts of base damage, they'd be likely to do too well with tank builds (that's why Talon has only a maximum of 160 base damage on his innate, for example). Marksmen as well have occasionally exploited items intended for tanky champions, and will continue to do so whenever those items are strong (Frozen Mallet and Sterak's Gage especially). As long as tank stats remain in their current state, we will forever be doomed to a state of damage classes where they will either be too snowbally, or too liable to make use of tanky builds. If fixing that entails making damage builds less viable on tanks, so be it.

WoonStruckJan 4, 20171 votes

You're talking about the AP Ezreal conundrum...

Yeah, you might like AP Ezreal, but that's not the way Riot has endorsed playing him. They will balance according to what makes AD Ezreal healthy, even if that sacrifices effectiveness on AP Ezreal. They've stated this several times.

Same deal with tanks and their damage ratios...Remember when they all built RoA, Abyssal, Lichbane->Sunfire->GA? That was removed as well, effectively.

Remember when Maokai used to have some of the best ratios+base damages in the game before his mini-rework? Same deal.

You kinda just have to deal with it, unfortunately.

LiofaJan 3, 20173 votes

You look forward to another class update that breaks 30% of the champs, does nothing for another 30%, and dumpsters the last 40% that were already never played anyways, and in 2 months the meta returns back to what it always was and will be, abusing riot's favourites?

What the fuck did the adc update accomplish? Mage update? Juggernauts? Exactly, these updates are just a way for riot to jerk themselves off and pat themselves on the back for doing essentially what they've doing for 6 years, almost nothing.

RalanrJan 4, 20173 votes

Graves jg, Darius's increased use, Cassiopeia mains shutting up about her not working and more variety amongst assassins.

Most updates are focused on fixing long term problems than short term problems also.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Graves jg, Darius's increased use, Cassiopeia mains shutting up about her not working and more variety amongst assassins.

Most updates are focused on fixing long term problems than short term problems also.

"More variety amongst assassins"

Assassins are irrelevant, the only non meta assassin that benefitted from the update is katarina.

Akali is still shit, talon is still shit, evelynn is still shit.

Its the same old assassins who have stayed after the update: rengar, khazix, and leblanc. Fizz a little bit with his whacky hit box, but not as much.

RalanrJan 4, 20171 votes

More variety doesn't mean more viable.

Rockm SockmJan 4, 20172 votes

Tank items were the first rework. When are divers going to get some love?

LongHair FoxJan 4, 20171 votes

Juggernauts where the first rework... If you discount the support rework way earlier. Back then they added items to help juggernauts this time they want to solve the underlying problem with things like tank ekko and how tanks should scale.

XavanicJan 3, 20171 votes

Im hoping they rework tank itemization overall, such as adding % bonus armor on items that stacks as you build more rather then getting 60 armor off 1 item but that 1 item can hit 80 armor after 3-4 items,

5000000000000000Jan 3, 20171 votes

So like the Infinity Edge/Rabadon's of armor?

XavanicJan 4, 20171 votes

Pretty much, Also a grevious wounds item for tanks since its kinda unfair the only class that really needs it doesnt have it

Tychusfindlay919Jan 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much, Also a grevious wounds item for tanks since its kinda unfair the only class that really needs it doesnt have it

Tanks do not need grievous wounds. Grievous wounds on tanks would fuck over juggernauts more than ADCs.

If anything, a special form of anti lifesteal in particular would maybe be best.

MelledoneusJan 4, 20172 votes

Rammus Malphite Taric YOU HAVE NO POWER HERE.

PennsJan 3, 20171 votes

I was looking forward to changes in ap itemization too

item 3070

5000000000000000Jan 3, 20171 votes

It'd be cool to get new items that grant defense other than just more stats, too.

Big LincolnJan 3, 20171 votes

I'm hoping they adjust the power curve of tank items. Currently it's pretty bad for all parties involved.

XavanicJan 4, 20171 votes

IMO late game tanks should basically be untouchable unless you have last whisper, as right now with the crit stacking most tanks feel like shit

RalanrJan 4, 20171 votes

Reddit thinks the opposite apparently. They say that LDR is a poor buy because it only helps them against 1 person on the enemy team and offers nothing against the enemy carry.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 4, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Reddit thinks the opposite apparently. They say that LDR is a poor buy because it only helps them against 1 person on the enemy team and offers nothing against the enemy carry.

Mortal reminder. Still makes tanks feel like total ass because every armor item they buy is only half effective in terms of armor and the grievous wounds on just one AA no matter the current % of enemy hp (unlike morello) is great against other carries with life steal.

XavanicJan 4, 20172 votes

In their current state, alot of tanks dont even feel like a threat, the adc just turns on them and melts them, and i think thats fucking retarded as a tank is supposed to be problematic

RalanrJan 4, 20174 votes

Don't tell ADC mains that, they'll just talk about Poppy.

kasfasJan 4, 20171 votes

I'm pretty sure the changes they could make to defensive itemization are going to be more lacklustre than you think. I'm still looking forward to it but, I also think that divers are probably next.

WheatloafJan 4, 20171 votes

Tank itemization arguably effects the most champions in the game, both in terms of how many champions build it, and how many champions have to interact with the champions that build it. They're going to need surgical gloves and instruments on this one.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Tank itemization arguably effects the most champions in the game, both in terms of how many champions build it, and how many champions have to interact with the champions that build it. They're going to need surgical gloves and instruments on this one.

Bullshit, there is an adc in every game but not a tank. We've seen multi-carry teams throughout this season in particular.

RalanrJan 4, 20171 votes

That's because the game doesn't require a tank every game. At most it requires a brick wall.

That's what he means since anyone can buy tank items and call themselves a "tank". Defense is a stat that anyone can scale with.

Tychusfindlay919Jan 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's because the game doesn't require a tank every game. At most it requires a brick wall.

That's what he means since anyone can buy tank items and call themselves a "tank". Defense is a stat that anyone can scale with.

Sometimes it doesnt even require a brick wall, just a team with well rounded CC from all the different carries.

RalanrJan 4, 20171 votes

Very true. Teams can get away without a tank or even a frontline.

But honestly that doesn't surprise me because a lot of games or media of games showcase how you can get away without a tank or durable frontline. Usually by showcasing speed and damage avoidance.

We associate this as "skill" and consider anything that involves taking it instead of avoiding it as an absence of skill. It's kinda like the big guy fatality syndrome: where when the durable guy dies it is still possible to win by playing right. But if the damage guy dies then it's impossible to win because you don't have the damage.

Basically our culture values offense more than defense.