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Immobile Melees/Juggernauts need more power to compensate for immobility.

DragonShea··15 votes·634 views

Hi all as you know, juggs are having a hard time dealing with all the mobiliiy and CC in the game. So I was thinking that maybe it's time to discuss how they what they need in general in order for them to become balanced.

First of all. I don't mind if some Juggs only have damage and durability as long as they can do their job right and carry. Darius Mordekaiser and Illaoi are examples of carry juggs, who force the enemy team to choice between them or the juggs team, becoming off-tanks for the team.

The problem lies in the fact that with mobility and CC creep they have a hard time unless their own team can CC a target for them to pick out and kill. Many divers have do what juggs and go but have mobility on top. Darkin Kayn for example. has insane sustain and can become relatively tanky, making him a deadly bruister that kills along as their is blood to spill and run form the body of his victims, no caring where it flows, only that it flows. Also, many "frail" champions have too many thinks that increases their survivability, making them much harder to kill them that they are supposed to be.

All of this has made juggs not as viable when tanks are also stealing their thunder of having high damage. although they need to have high base damage to deal respectable damage as they are need it because they don't normally get a hybrid or bruiser item. It's that they have good scaling of their HP and resistances which makes them very strong.

So what could be the solution to the problem? Well in my opinion it's that juggs need slightly more base stats and more power in their kit, maybe even some baseline tenacity to help counter all the CC in the game. But in terms of power, I was thinking that some juggs should have abilities in their kit, such as more CC, actions or other things to make them powerful and make up for their lack of mobility. League as progressed enough for immobile champs to have rather overloaded kits (but not too overloaded). load more abilities to counter Mobility and CC or addition abilities and effects.

Anyways I just wanted to give my two cents on the jugg issue.

17 Comments

Teridax6810 votes

While I agree that juggernauts have often had the impact of their lack of mobility and CC underestimated, I feel that simply adding to their base stats risks making them even more binary relative to range than they are now. Against melee champions, juggernauts are often already quite strong, sometimes even too strong, simply because they can already deal and tank more damage than their opponent. Against ranged opponents, though, juggernauts frequently auto-lose simply because no matter how durable or damaging they are, they get kited so hard that they can't really make use of either.

Because of this, I think this is one of the cases where some juggernauts should have their weaknesses made less harsh. Giving them a few more tools that allow them to reach enemies at a distance would make them much more healthy and easier to balance, even if those tools don't have to be exceptionally strong or reliable, as is the case with Urgot or Darius. While juggernauts should be kitable, I think there's a significant difference between being weak to kiting, and getting hard-countered by it: the former at least gives opportunites where the juggernaut can break free from the kiting and actually make an impact on their target, and the latter does not, which feels terrible and needlessly denies a lot of agency. Allowing juggernauts to affect ranged champions more consistently (though, again, not necessarily reliably) would allow them to function without having to give them so much power that they auto-win fights in melee range. I do agree that juggernaut DPS needs to be top-tier across all classes, but I think that would more likely involve nerfing marksmen, whose DPS often turns into burst, rather than buffing everyone else to catch up.

DragonShea2 votes

{quoted}

While I agree that juggernauts have often had the impact of their lack of mobility and CC underestimated, I feel that simply adding to their base stats risks making them even more binary relative to range than they are now. Against melee champions, juggernauts are often already quite strong, sometimes even too strong, simply because they can already deal and tank more damage than their opponent. Against ranged opponents, though, juggernauts frequently auto-lose simply because no matter how durable or damaging they are, they get kited so hard that they can't really make use of either.

Because of this, I think this is one of the cases where some juggernauts should have their weaknesses made less harsh. Giving them a few more tools that allow them to reach enemies at a distance would make them much more healthy and easier to balance, even if those tools don't have to be exceptionally strong or reliable, as is the case with Urgot or Darius. While juggernauts should be kitable, I think there's a significant difference between being weak to kiting, and getting hard-countered by it: the former at least gives opportunites where the juggernaut can break free from the kiting and actually make an impact on their target, and the latter does not, which feels terrible and needlessly denies a lot of agency. Allowing juggernauts to affect ranged champions more consistently (though, again, not necessarily reliably) would allow them to function without having to give them so much power that they auto-win fights in melee range. I do agree that juggernaut DPS needs to be top-tier across all classes, but I think that would more likely involve nerfing marksmen, whose DPS often turns into burst, rather than buffing everyone else to catch up.

Well I would like to see more skill in catching ranged champs and kite breaking abilities. It should feel like anytime you get someone with a ranged ability it would signal your chance to follow up.

As a Yorick Main, having my W dashed out of is annoying and I wish it could ground the target so that the only way to get out is to break the wall or else you will die, the short windup should mean the you waste the dash on dodging it instead of getting out of it because once you are boxed in with yorick and his ghouls, you are basically fucked. For Urgot I'd like to see his Q getting better because it's delay is too long and range is too small.

Darius and Illaoi have ok ranged ability power with Illaoi forcing fights and darius reeling people in for him to kill, so I don't really see a reason to buff that. Morde really should be the definitive Full damage and tanky champ with no CC, or maybe break the habit and give him a slow on his E, who knows.

I think that Garan's W buff was a step in the right direction for Freight Train juggs while Cho'Gath is an example of an OP raid boss, that nonetheless would be an good example of what juggs could be in the future once the fat bastard get nerfed down and balanced again.

Mordepool4 votes

Perhaps more utility aswell?

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Nah fam.Just give them (more) True damage

LordGeovanni1 votes

True damage needs to be lessened across the board in this game % damage too both wreck tanks juggarnauts and fighters and make them unable to accomplish what they are supposed to do

PokladnicaZla1 votes

I was joking XD

Teridax685 votes

This. I can understand juggernauts being designed to be low on mobility and reach, but when you also make them low on utility and crowd control as well, that leaves very few options left to balance and differentiate them. Utility would help juggernauts contribute even when behind, and would allow them to have a little less of their power put into raw damage and durability, which can feel excessive in certain specific situations currently. However, I also feel this utility needs to be range-agnostic, otherwise it just ends up being like Garen's armor reduction and shits on melee champions even harder, while having little to no effect against ranged opponents.

Acheron163 votes

What OP means is that Juggernauts aren't doing well versus ADCs, due to supports and adcs being strong right now.

Against CC tanks and fighters or anyone that can get to, really, they are still very very strong. They are one of the most binary classes in the game, Just behind Assassins and ADCs, and giving them more general power means that if they get to anyone that person is 100% destroyed.

And that is bad game design.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Adcs are strong supports are strong adcs are strong with support help. If supports were strong they would be sited for helping Classes other than adcs which they arent Its all adcs benifit too much from item 3504 supports do too much to protect adcs. nothing is complained about how they protect mages or tanks or fighters

Acheron161 votes

{quoted}

Adcs are strong supports are strong adcs are strong with support help. If supports were strong they would be sited for helping Classes other than adcs which they arent Its all adcs benifit too much from item 3504 supports do too much to protect adcs. nothing is complained about how they protect mages or tanks or fighters

Sorry, couldnt understand anything you wrote.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Adcs are strong supports are strong adcs are strong with support help. If supports were strong they would be sited for helping Classes other than adcs which they arent Its all adcs benifit too much from item 3504 supports do too much to protect adcs. nothing is complained about how they protect mages or tanks or fighters

There is too much ping-pong synergy with Censer. It's like Vlad gaining AP from his HP and even more AP and HP and vise versa.

Instead of him getting extra HP and AP once.

AFilthyCaitMain2 votes

Illaoi, IMO, needs more ways to control a situation. Right no she has almost no way to control what happens. Her opponent on the other hand can control exactly what happens in the fight. This is why shes nonexistent in high elo. This means shell needs a bit more cc or mobility. Maybe a short slow on her w so she can land her e more often?

Variks the Loyal1 votes

I'm thinking a rapidly decaying slow on a successful tentacle slap, similar to Trundle's Q.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/6fc62d681dbc6f4da4d0e04414d56a93.png morde doesn't need any buffs

DunkinNoobs1 votes

Juggs have the same problem that adcs currently do but it isn't as noticeable since most people don't actually play that way. What problem? Their team can empower that champ to the point where their weaknesses don't matter anymore. Every played against a Darius that has a team spamming speed boosts and heals on him? It's absolute carnage. You can't really make them stronger.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Am i the only one that noticed that divers and skirmisher have been less meta than Juggernauts because even though they can gap close in that gap closer is on a long cooldown most of the time and most squishy characters can survive a divers burst hell they can survive assassins burst and the also have their own mobility to make space and kill divers and skirmishers because they have no way to excape and arent as durable as juggarnauts.

Krytoric1 votes

Im not sure how they could really make them stronger without having a repeat of the juggernaut update,

Darius more times than once, will get his stacks off on a tank, and W - Ult me as an ADC and ill die instantly from full HP, even if they only have like a black cleaver

Illaoi is still v capable of carrying a game, with 1 good ult she can shred an entire team and seem borderline invincible

but Mordekaiser needs jesus, he needs more than a buff, hes in such a bad spot ill give you that one.

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