the disparity between melee and ranged carries

Mens Hair Club··7 votes·708 views

many melee carries are being reworked to have little conditions or minigames that require some of them to micro a lot more than they've needed in the past to achieve high DPS or set up to burst you; gangplank, fiora, darius and warwick come to mind. many of the ones who can get their steroids at the push of a button are either considered outdated or un-fun such as yi, yasuo, nasus, tryndamere (i don't think he needs to press anything for his steroids) and i believe we're seeing a yasuo rework soon? we might see something minigame-y added to his kit if so. overall melee carries are very disliked, even when they aren't strong

ranged carries are not the same, though; many of them retain their button-press steroids and few of them really have a condition besides pressing said buttons. there aren't many minigames or 'win conditions' on their kits; xayah has conditional burst+CC but she still gets a ton of damage on her autos just for pressing W. if they DO have a minigame or something similar then it's usually tied to auto attacks (ashe, varus, trist, twitch and vayne), which IMO makes little sense given how the entire class except for jhin and lucian has high attack speed, but Varus has decently high CDs on his spells so I feel like his offers the most gameplay to it. overall, except for recently due to a lot of little changes adding up, ADCs are/were not a hated class

is this discrepancy reasonable? or should riot make carry design more consistent across classes, and if you think the latter, which design do you feel should be more standard for carries?

19 Comments

Teridax682 votes

My argument would be that both have their place, but currently they're both kind of out of whack. I strongly support more minigames on champion kits, but I think many of them as they've been implemented in the past actually have less gameplay than they appear to: Fiora, for example, has this cool-looking angle game, but in practice she has tools that are generous enough to let her pop a Vital without too much trouble, unless it spawns on the far side of her opponent, in which case she just has to wait for another side to get picked at random. Skarner isn't really a melee carry, but his own Dominion innate also exemplifies the kind of gimmicky design players dislike about certain minigames, as it forces in this new mechanic that carries some complexity, but little real depth or unique, interesting gameplay. By contrast, minigames like Urgot's new innate or Gangplank's barrels are tremendously fun and interactive, and despite being so out there integrate well into the game. Having the latter kind of minigame that provides tremendous depth and a true additional layer of gameplay benefits the game as a whole, and adds diversity, which is why I think we could benefit from more of those as long as they're well thought-out.

Re: steroids, I think it's okay for some champions to have reliable steroids, provided they still have some gameplay tied to it, but I also think marksmen are the class least suited to have reliable steroids: as a class, marksmen already distinguish themselves by having some of the most reliable damage in the game, via high-powered autoattacks. Because of this, they need to have unreliability to their power elsewhere, and one means of achieving that could be by locking some of their damage output behind unreliable, conditional steroids. However, marksman steroids in practice tend to be overwhelmingly reliable, e.g. Tristana or Twitch's on-demand bonus attack speed, Lucian's double-auto innate, Twitch or Vayne's bonus AD ults, and so on. As a result, the class tends to be far too reliable as a whole, without there being a real tradeoff to their power to compensate for that. I'd support reliable steroids on champions who, as a baseline, are exceptionally unreliable, but as there are currently no truly unreliable marksmen, I think we need to start making their steroids far more conditional and dependent on proper interaction. Xayah's on-hit bonus movement speed against champions with her W is a good start, though the on-demand unconditional bonus attack speed and amplified autoattack damage... not so much.

Bladerunner77771 votes

Melee carries can't push down towers from the safe range that an ADC can in a siege. Melee carries can't safely stand back and inflict high DPS on to what would otherwise be unkillable tanks (if it weren't for the triple scaling nature of Atk Spd, AD, and Crit). These are the purposes of the ADC: suffer early to carry late.

The complaints towards ADCs are that they don't have to scale/wait too much to reach their lategame melting power.

Mens Hair Club1 votes

do you think melee carries are compensated fairly for the lack of safety?

Wafflessssss1 votes

Yeah. If you ever played a melee carry you'd know that a unfortunate amount of the time you are stuck hitting the tank because you can't get to anyone important. A anything with peel can usually single handedly make a melee carry useless.

Bladerunner77771 votes

which is why they are normally great splitpushers; it's extremely difficult to teamfight as a melee carry against competent players (normally you just split and tp flank when necessary).

Wafflessssss1 votes

Unfortunately even for the majority of players split pushing is not an option because teams don't know how to facilitate it or the player doesn't do it properly. It requires cooperation, good timing and macro knowledge which is harder to do than simply being an adc and standing next to your peel.

BerylCrab1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. If you ever played a melee carry you'd know that a unfortunate amount of the time you are stuck hitting the tank because you can't get to anyone important. A anything with peel can usually single handedly make a melee carry useless.

"Anything with peel" so....you either don't understand what peel means, or don't understand what single handedly means. good post. 10/10

Wafflessssss1 votes

Sorry, anything with the ability to peel.

Mordepool3 votes

Maybe Tower Rework are inorder

Bladerunner77771 votes

Huh?

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

no, don't listen to this ** wtf

no other mobas have this melee vs range problem, and towers are fine in all of them and can be pushed by everyone

Mens Hair Club1 votes

tell me what other moba are like

how do they handle this?

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

longer range tower to prevent free ranged poke, better creep agro, turn rate, better CC balance so it doesn't hurt melees more because they can't dodge skilshots in melee range

Mens Hair Club1 votes

I played only a little bit of dota 2, I think most CC is targeted? does that benefit melee champs more?

but league many CC is targeted

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

most cc are targetted so melees like rangeds are een, they have linken sphere and bkb to balance that and skillshot ccs (like mirana arrow) have their cc depending on range so melees do not get fucked by that

Mens Hair Club1 votes

that sounds pretty good

maybe I should try dota again

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

How is yasuo pressing a free steroid to get damage?

his ult requieres him to either prey for his team to get a knock up, or to work on getting a 3rd Q and then ult and if his enemies dodge, or CC him during tornado he won'thave his 50% armor pen

Mens Hair Club1 votes

i listed yasuo because he is considered 'un-fun'

i think he is good design but many people disagree

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I can see minigames being worthwhile if it's a massive power to the champion; but more often than not it's just a hassle at best, and a debilitating frustration at worst.

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