PSA: Not knowing how to play against a champion =/= OP

Astôlfo·Aug 15, 2016·37 votes·1,786 views

Also, before you go on and on about a champion supposedly being the most broken thing ever, try playing several games with that champion. Once you do that, you can usually see it's not as "easy" or "OP" as you initially thought. Why? Because now you're playing from that perspective's sides with all the limitations and restrictions and downsides that come with said champion.

Sure, there are occasionally actually stupidly broken champions (the newest pre-nerfs Sona from a while back for instance). But threads like "omg they're so op because idk how to play against them and refuse to learn how to blah blah blah they're op"? Just… no.

Almost every champion has strengths and weaknesses. If you refuse to take advantage of said weaknesses and only try to play a losing battle against their strengths, that's no one's fault except yours, and you should stop complaining.

85 Comments

Vistha KaiAug 15, 201615 votes

When people play completely defensive against Yasuo, never gank him and then cry he's OP.

https://media.giphy.com/media/wUsCZuPPFj4Q0/giphy.gif

DepressedAhriAug 16, 20161 votes

I pick Swain everytime I face Yasuo. Haven't lost lane to a Yasuo ever since.

VolcanuzAug 16, 20163 votes

I pick annie or Kayle. Fucking funny watching him try block me.

Spicy RiceAug 16, 20163 votes

Can confirm, as a Yasuo main, i hate picking him during metas where annie and kayle mid are popular

VolcanuzAug 16, 20161 votes

Yeah those are just two i thought of on the top of my head. So many champions destroy him in mid.

bistrohAug 16, 20161 votes

Whenever I'm against a yasuo I just pick lissandra then get really fed.

TyroneWatermelonAug 17, 20161 votes

when some junglers cant even gank yasuo and some laners cant play aggresivly because he's a face role lane bully

Vistha KaiAug 17, 20161 votes

Even when you can't really gank him, Yasuo is highly allergic to ganks.

Walk behind him, even as pre-6 Shyvana and he has to blow something to escape. If not, you just put some free damage on him.

TyroneWatermelonAug 17, 20161 votes

a player with half brain will ward,Yasuo can dash through a unit,especially if you come from behind its free escape,a smart player wont push that hard to the enemy's turrent

Vistha KaiAug 18, 20161 votes

Have you even played this season?

You can't ward for yourself even in a side lane.

RivuoAug 15, 20163 votes

PSA: Champions can be broken. :]

AstôlfoAug 15, 20169 votes

Hey, I heard basic English reading comprehension helps.

"Sure, there are occasionally actually stupidly broken champions (the newest pre-nerfs Sona from a while back for instance)."

Zed geniusAug 15, 20163 votes

Do you imply by any means that bronze 4 people are bad,and not that warwick,annie and yorick are completely OP?

SSJTribeAug 15, 20161 votes

it's true. There are however, some exceptions as you noted. Personally I feel Zed is completely overpowered and I've refused to play him because I feel he is unhealthy for the game. Unfortunately however, I got into a one-for-all match where our team had a majority pick on him. We were playing against Xerath, (and I realize this is a bad matchup for Xerath,) but we had a jungler and they didn't so I had a 2v1 against two Xerath's.

I still won the lane. Never having played this champ before, I double killed them at least twice, maybe three times after I simply bought Hexdrinker. I still don't see where Zed's laning weaknesses are. [zombie-nunu-bummed]

PermabannedGarenAug 15, 20164 votes

{quoted}

it's true. There are however, some exceptions as you noted. Personally I feel Zed is completely overpowered and I've refused to play him because I feel he is unhealthy for the game. Unfortunately however, I got into a one-for-all match where our team had a majority pick on him. We were playing against Xerath, (and I realize this is a bad matchup for Xerath,) but we had a jungler and they didn't so I had a 2v1 against two Xerath's.

I still won the lane. Never having played this champ before, I double killed them at least twice, maybe three times after I simply bought Hexdrinker. I still don't see where Zed's laning weaknesses are. [zombie-nunu-bummed]

Have you considered that they were just stupid shit-eating retards who didn't know what they were doing?

Because I assure you, Zed hasn't even been good for several patches, much less overpowered.

SSJTribeAug 15, 20161 votes

Maybe, and you're probably right. Still going to ban Zed every game though until someone can actually give me counterplay advice that isn't "git gud". Darius is kind of the same way too. They might not be overpowered, but personally, I just have no idea how to play against either of them which is what the thread is about.

AstôlfoAug 15, 20165 votes

The issue with Zed is that unlike any other assassin, his major burst is on an inherent delay. Assassins like Talon or Rengar will just instantly erase you from existence if they catch you. He also has no form of stealth and his attacks are very clearly telegraphed. His ultimate always puts him behind the target.

Thus, once mid/late game comes and his favorite squishy targets aren't wandering off alone and sticking with their team instead, diving in to try and kill them would be suicide. "Oh look, Zed's dived into the middle of us." Proceed to just immediately CC and kill Zed before he can do anything, and any support item or the like could heal or shield whoever was his target to prevent them from dying to Zed's ultimate if he can even get that far.

SSJTribeAug 15, 20161 votes

Sure, that's why he falls off lategame, but you simply can't co-exist during laning with him with certain champions (imo again). I play stuff like Twisted Fate, Lux, and Vel'Koz, and there just comes a point where he can completely disregard anything you're doing and just walk up and kill you. He has no bad matchups, only even matchups. You know, I'm really not trying to complain here, but that's what it's coming across as I think. I'm going to stop now :D

AstôlfoAug 15, 20161 votes

He's somewhat cancerous in laning phase yes.

Zed geniusAug 15, 20161 votes

Kayle lissandra fizz Three bad matchups for your "BROKEN 0 COUNTERPLAY EZ AF BRAINDEAD POINT AND CLICK CHAMP",while there are many other harder ones (lux,leblanc)

EstebanfunkjrAug 15, 20161 votes

Talon too, all he has to do is ult when zed ults, can't properly damage what you can't see.

Troll for TrumpAug 16, 20161 votes

Zed still destroys him early and mid though. It's the other basic abilities that are annoying

EstebanfunkjrAug 16, 20161 votes

I haven't had too much of a problem with him in lane, though i generally try to bully him with my w and then engage him once i hit level 3 rather than him engaging me.

Troll for TrumpAug 16, 20161 votes

I just think it's dumb for Melee champs to be able to apply more pressure than mages. A Zed or Yasuo creates much more lane bullying potential than Syndra and even Azir. All-inning Talon should have the upper hand so the Zed should be harassing with his range.

BIG DADDY ELOAug 15, 20169 votes

You're wrong about Zed, and statistics prove it. The only reason he's ever deemed "overpowered" is because low elo players are unable to formulate a strategy to play against him due to a lack of understanding of LoL.

His win ratio is 46.1%.

His ban ratio in diamond isn't available statistically from what I can see, however from my experience he is banned around 1 in 10 or so games.

If you are playing Twisted Fate or Lux, you have plenty of ways to deal with him. Watch how top rated players deal with the matchup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG0CeOxB69I

As you can see, contrary to popular bronze belief, his pushing power is weak relative to other mid lane picks, and a strong pusher like TF easily shoves him in and denies him CS at levels 1-3. Zed's 1-3 is incredibly weak, and you shouldn't lose trades nor be pushed at these levels.

He shoves the cannon wave in, and then backs quickly. This is because Zed will win head on trades after 3. However, buying boots will greatly increase his potential to dodge Zed's Q, as well as allow him to roam more efficiently at 6. He also buys cloth armor to go into seekers. This increases the amount of full combos Zed needs to land to kill you in lane (if you have a fully stacked seekers, he can kill you at around 60%, if your exhaust is down). Also notice how he takes exhaust in the video.

Around 6:05 notice how Zed barely hits anything on him when he throws his shadow out (happens twice here). This isn't because he's garbage, he's korean challenger. It's because Apdo understands Zed's range, and what he will try to do, and can bait him into throwing his shadow when he can't land his full combo. If you have seekers, and Zed can't land his E and double q, you win trades as TF. His shadow has a 22 second cooldown, so during that time window, you can aggressively harass him for basically free, or against smarter Zeds who will farm with Q, you can shove him in and roam. And for the love of God, don't throw your gold card at him if he's going to ult you. Wait for him to ult so he doesn't dodge it and do "le fanci zaid outplay".

If you execute all these tips right, and take exhaust, Zed will rarely beat you in lane as TF. Easier said than done, so practice, and don't blame the champion.

SSJTribeAug 15, 20163 votes

See, thanks. 2 years I've been asking for advice in this matchup, and most people won't have an actual discussion about it at all. It always turns into some kind of

[{quoted}](name=TSM t0xic mid,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AgQbUTR6,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-15T22:06:55.797+0000)

"BROKEN 0 COUNTERPLAY EZ AF BRAINDEAD POINT AND CLICK CHAMP",while there are many other harder ones (lux,leblanc)

thing, one side bashing the other etc. But thank you for giving ACTUAL tips along with a video on how to implement thise tips. Wish I could upvote more than once.

MonkeyMadnessAug 15, 20161 votes

An actual good zed player won't simple let you "proceed to just immediately CC and kill" him. He will save his ult for when he needs untargetablility and he will weave in and out of the fight using his shadow swap mechanics all the while dropping solid dps with his shurikens and his e. He may not be top of the win rate charts right now, but he's not so easy to deal with as you are claiming.

AstôlfoAug 15, 20161 votes

Then he really can't get to an ADC inside his teammates outside of just throwing Qs/Es with his clone?

MonkeyMadnessAug 15, 20161 votes

A good zed can eliminate virtually any target he wants. He might get killed in the process, but unless he goes full rambo, he's gonna take down at least one person with him in every fight.

AstôlfoAug 15, 20161 votes

Yes that's what I mean. Of course someone like Zed could kill at least one person because of his very nature and his damage and burst. But if he tries to dive into a team, he's most likely going to die with them. Which really makes it sort of not worth it unless said target was such a crucial carry that their team can now win a 4v4. The issue being he only gets the kill gold but their entire team would get kill gold + assist gold off Zed.

MonkeyMadnessAug 15, 20161 votes

A good zed will not play like this though. He will wait for a proper engage and then dive the backline while the enemy front line is engaged elsewhere. Or he will create picks and use the reactivation on his ult to escape while leaving his ult burst and duskblade proc to finish off his target.

AstôlfoAug 15, 20163 votes

Hmm, alright, fair enough. Thank you for the information!

DepressedAhriAug 16, 20161 votes

A good anything will do that though, not just Zed. Causing your argument to be wibbly wobbly. What you're saying, is something all good players know to do, not anything specific to Zed. Also, if you time it, your CC will hit Zed as he ults, rendering him unable to shift to a clone.

MonkeyMadnessAug 16, 20161 votes

A good anything will NOT do this though. It's the escaping after the job is done part that zed excels in. No other champion has the ability to dive so deep and so hard and then just pop back out so quickly.

Gary B EnkelisAug 16, 20162 votes

{quoted}

A good anything will NOT do this though. It's the escaping after the job is done part that zed excels in. No other champion has the ability to dive so deep and so hard and then just pop back out so quickly.

I guess that is Zed 's specialty. Other champions have specialties, right? And then there's the skill of the players?

Zed hops on Anivia . Zed pops Anivia into egg. Now what does Zed do? I mean getting egg out of Anivia is definitely valuable, I'd say. I dunno. I'm only Silver. I don't play mid, Zed , or Anivia .

Oh yeah in reply to another person, I just remembered someone said Talon could just ult if Zed ults him. That seems smart. Here's an AMA from Scrumm: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3a5fdz/hi_im_scrumm_just_reached_challenger_na_playing/

He says Zed and Talon are a skill matchup. I'll take a Challenger Talon main's word. He also gives advice for Talon into Annie by saying to farm with W, not care for gold, do your thing at 6. Or something like that. I don't see why you can't swap Annie for Zed but I'd not be surprised if there is a reason.

Troll for TrumpAug 16, 20161 votes

Actually you do that "Talon vs Annie" thing for any r and matchup. Talon vs most ranged champs is a skill matchup while Zed is pretty strong b'day most ranged champs.

VolcanuzAug 16, 20162 votes

Actually i think the biggest problem people and even i have with Zed is that he has a lot of mobility and it is hard to stop that mobility unless you hard stun him. He can dive in on you, then blink out at insane ranges as long as they count out the duration. Which if you main someone counting isn't hard when it becomes one with you, like i hardly ever miss with ashe arrow, i land more long range than i do point blank.

So i think it is his mobility which people have no clue how to counter, when someone with that damage can be on top of you in a second and ganks just don't work on him then of course people are going to panic and call "OP". It is much like LB, due to displacement and mobility his considered overpowered, there just is very little counter to mobility which has no delay. When you have an ability that gets you out of harms way and has no animation then you know you have a problematic ability.

Otherwise Zed is simple to counter. A Zhon or a QSS and you beat his bread and butter ability. Group up helps too. Or just play safe, he can't dive you without items so don't let him get those items.

Gary B EnkelisAug 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Otherwise Zed is simple to counter. A Zhon or a QSS and you beat his bread and butter ability. Group up helps too. Or just play safe, he can't dive you without items so don't let him get those items.

I'm off topic but it sounds like picking Malphite with Zed sounds really funny since if they group to counter Zed then they're set up for a ult. haha

VolcanuzAug 17, 20162 votes

Group up doesn't mean stand close. it just means be aware of your team and positioning. So grouping up in this case as a ADC means stay at back line and wait for zed to use his stuff then you go in. Or as a support or tank, wait for zed to jump on your ADC then lock him down/kill him.

Stack is the word you are looking for. Stacking means get in so close that something like Malph ult will fuck you.

Gary B EnkelisAug 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Group up doesn't mean stand close. it just means be aware of your team and positioning. So grouping up in this case as a ADC means stay at back line and wait for zed to use his stuff then you go in. Or as a support or tank, wait for zed to jump on your ADC then lock him down/kill him.

Stack is the word you are looking for. Stacking means get in so close that something like Malph ult will fuck you.

Thank you very much for the explanations. :)

VolcanuzAug 18, 20161 votes

No problem!

TyroneWatermelonAug 17, 20161 votes

dodge his autoattacks noob

MonkeyMadnessAug 15, 20161 votes

Let's look at yasuo: there is more skill required to play against him that to play as him. That's pretty fucked up, wouldn't you say? I'm aware that the majority of the issue with him is the very existence of the fervor mastery, but still, with all that item independent damage he gets from that keystone he has very little valid counterplay right now.

You are also ignoring the fact that there is literally always an imbalance between champions. This will always be true as long as Riot keeps adding new elements to the game. That's why the buff/nerf things, to try to keep them in check, but it's a never ending cycle of constantly rotating flavor of the month champs. The reason people are complaining so hard right now is because the the same 10 champs or so have been the top of the tier list for nearly a full year now, and the game is suffering for a massive lack of diversity in the pool of viable champions, which makes the game stagnant for people that play them these overtuned champs, and frustrating for those who end up playing against them.

DepressedAhriAug 16, 20161 votes

The problem is... League IS a balanced game right now, that's why the Flavor of the Month champions don't change, because there aren't any stronger ones, because everything is balanced. In a world where everything is strong, doesn't that make no one strong? Isn't that called BALANCE?

MonkeyMadnessAug 16, 20161 votes

???? a truly balanced game would be one where every champion was picked roughly equally and had ~50% win rate. Like, that's the definition of balanced...

Gary B EnkelisAug 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

???? a truly balanced game would be one where every champion was picked roughly equally and had ~50% win rate. Like, that's the definition of balanced...

I mean some champions are harder than others. I don't know. And like picking Sona into Blitzcrank is probably unwise but a good Sona and a good can find ways around eachother maybe.

I'm kinda here to debate balance but it is not my specialty or maybe I'd be on the balance team. I dunno.

MonkeyMadnessAug 19, 20161 votes

Well balance cannot be determined by considering difficulty into the equation. A champion may be hard to use, but if you make the champion more powerful to compensate, the people that learn how to play that champ will be unstoppable. Because of this, you will never have exactly 50% win ratio on every champ, because some people will play hard champs that they are not skilled with and fail miserably. But, given that most people don't do this in ranked (and fuck anyone who does this shit, btw), I feel that a truly balanced game would see each champ with roughly 49-51% win ratio. As of now, there are champs with nearly 55% win rates, and hecarim recently reached 57% (but was finally nerfed back to acceptable levels).

Gary B EnkelisAug 19, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Well balance cannot be determined by considering difficulty into the equation. A champion may be hard to use, but if you make the champion more powerful to compensate, the people that learn how to play that champ will be unstoppable.

Yup.

[zombie-brand-clap]

DepressedAhriAug 19, 20161 votes

The thing is, over 100 of the 130ish champions have a 49-51% winrate, with the lowest right now being Ryze cause his rework, people still learning him, and the highest being around 55%. It's actually really balanced if you look at the numbers, and most champions are around a 1% playrate, as well. No one is un-viable right now (Except maybe Nunu and Yorick)

MonkeyMadnessAug 19, 20161 votes

55% win rate is kind of the definition of unbalanced. The number of games played is so ridiculously high that small fluctuations in percentages actually correspond to a massive number of games. And 5% is not a small fluctuation, even as far as percentages go.