Why does the lost chapter mana regent disappear once built into something else?

Ginjavitis·Mar 4, 2018·65 votes·4,437 views

The lost chapter items have 3 items it builds into that had 3 “subtypes” on them: catching, poking, and more mana. Why is the mana regen from the core item on 90% of mid lane champions lostonce built into something else? No other core item has that happen. The only one that even comes close are the hex tech items but they provide even more damage to make up for the damage once built. The one reason we build this item is for the mana sustain to keep up with our incredibly high costs that we have to use to CS from a safe distance or toss out to have impact on a fight. We don’t get to auto attack, tank, use our passive 3 hit damages or anything else. We require mana and we have no way to get it back in a reasonable way.

150 Comments

NyarlathοtepMar 4, 201841 votes

Unfortunately riot wants mages to have big mana pools. Yet should they reach 0 mana they will stay 0 mana. And yeah its pretty stupid if you ask me. Every other role has a way to replenish mana or hp ( or in case of adcs both). I dont get why riot is so headstrong on keeping it that way. I mean if ADCS have a way to replenish mana IN COMBAT then mages, a role that relies 100% on mana, has to have a way to do it to. But nope, riot be like, fuck mages.

GinjavitisMar 4, 201810 votes

Exactly, we don’t get free health sustain or mana sustain from any of our items and the one item we build for sustain gets taken away whenever we want to have the next item up. Mages are starting to lose a lot of power other than “token magic damage champion” because adcs are beating us in burst, sustain, DPS, waveclear, tower taking. Mages just kind of play second fiddle to ADCs, we finally have a supportive ability to add something other than ad or att speed (nunu boil) but still we seem to be losing everything else. We don’t get to have our power spike anymore unless we get ahead.

NyarlathοtepMar 4, 20183 votes

Yep exactly.

dunder killMar 4, 201827 votes

This just isn't true

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend

Plenty of mages do around the same or even more damage than ADCs. As a matter of fact, the top 5 average damage dealers are ALL mages. So please stop making up nonsense. Mage's damage is on par with ADCs and their waveclear is generally much better. Their bust is also much higher but that really depends on the champion

This stuff has to stop. Mage's are fine. Of course some are struggling but that's the same for every class. I don't understand this BS about mages being worthless

GinjavitisMar 4, 20183 votes

Yes they still do damage, clear waves, and burst (slightly if i might add because they have gotten quite a few damage nerfs on items and abilities). But the whole post i made wasn't about us doing nothing it was about our mana regen being the thing hit time after time in our builds. with this most recent change we finally have 0 regen items to build into unless we want to build an item that requires you to take damage to get mana back or any of the support items. Chalice used to be the big item but then they nerfed the crap out of the AP and on top of all that gave it a passive that requires a heal or shield for allies which is not something most mages have. Mages are not gutted, they can still be strong, but the more we get thes regen nerfs the less impactful we can be because we have to watch our mana unlike most other roles, and we require mana more than any other role.

IfnethMar 4, 201810 votes

Somehow, between the fruits and the buffs and the backs, I almost never run out of mana at an awkward moment. And I play a champion that chugs down mana like goat’s milk on a hot day.

Taliyah

GinjavitisMar 4, 20181 votes

I have a decent amount of games where i really don't either, although i hold onto lost chapter for a lot longer than most. But we just keep getting forced into buying more and more mana just to stay relevant the longer the games go in. I have also lost games because i couldn't keep up the waveclear in a siege situation and when i backed to get some we ended up losing a fight. I'm fine with mages not being the strongest class but i don't want our ability to do things shafted with all these item changes taking away regen. How long until mana is considered too large a pool and we get our pools slightly nerfed here and there with no compensation?

IfnethMar 4, 20184 votes

You shouldn’t keep The Lost Chapter if you can finish your first item. You need it to do your job, and its ability power will help you clear waves with fewer spells. Luden’s Echo even includes a waveclear passive.

You shouldn’t be buying more than one mana item unless you’re a Rod-Tear mage, and even they should buy only those two. You need the ability power and passive from your other items to, again, do your job and clear waves efficiently.

A mage should not be able to indefinitely clear waves during a siege. That’s completely unfair to the sieging team and lets the besieged team turtle and farm until their whole team has a full build unless the sieging team is ahead enough to dive them. It would drag games out and until a coin-flip teamfight that’d render the early and mid-game irrelevant.

Your argument sounds bitter and mistrustful. You point to your experience yet claim to speak for all mages, and you arbitrarily suspect that Riot will slowly nerf every mana item’s mana pool.

The Yetii RiderMar 5, 20182 votes

As Riot has stated in the past, they took away mana regen from mages to encourage them to base more frequently because mages basing is actually a huge power spike for them. Mages do not gain AP from leveling like everyone else gains AD from leveling. Staying in lane for ten minutes is actually very harmful to a mage's relative power, and since the mana regeneration was taken away, mid lane has become much bloodier. Mages get big spikes in AP more frequently and they gain more and more power faster now.

TL:DR If you have mana regen, you never base. If you never base, you don't buy items. If you don't buy items, you get 0 AP over time. This is better for the mage players.

GinjavitisMar 5, 20181 votes

This is better for bad mage players....if i'm in the middle if a siege where 3 people came mid to kill my tower and i want to use my small amount of regen to toss out ahri Q's every 10 seconds until my team has time to collapse i should be able to. ADCs don;t have to base for mana or HP by the time they have their core items usually, why should i be forced to base to regen. On top of all that mage build paths are so funky half the time i have full inven with nothing to buy anyways because i need my control ward or 2 health pots i already used in a fight. I should be able to base for myself at an optimal time i create, not a time where the enemy has more mana and i can no longer do anything

The Yetii RiderMar 5, 20181 votes

Bad players are over 80% of the player base. Probably at least 8-10 million mid lane mage players are Gold I or below. They are more important than the "good" players.

GinjavitisMar 5, 20182 votes

No player is more important than the other, if you take 100 bad players and 100 good players and ask if they want to be forced to go back to get items you would have 200 no answers. No one wants to be forced to do something every game, no one should be. You need to know what you need to do because if you're forced to back then you never have to learn the correct way to manage and therefore will never improve.

The Yetii RiderMar 5, 20181 votes

And why would Riot WANT players to improve? They've already had to create a bunch of new ranked tiers for the swelling skill of players. They've already had to face this new issue of turret diving becoming easier as players have become more skilled at juggling aggro. They've already had to deal with vision and how it shuts off assassins, and the constant abuse of Locket which is a skill-based active item.

Encouraging players to remain bad at the game makes the game much easier to balance.

GinjavitisMar 5, 20181 votes

You can say the same thing in the opposite direction, if players continue to improve, then you can balance more and more around better players which is inherently a better idea. To say Riot SHOULD force players to do things to keep them bad to make it easier to balance is just a terrible thing to think about lol, that's like keeping half the population in prison so that they're easier to control, it just makes no sense and should not be a thing.

The Yetii RiderMar 5, 20182 votes

You can't compare the government's actions to a corporation.

A government should never try to control its citizens. The government's role is to protect its citizens.

A corporation has every incentive to control its customers. Keeping us non-competitive, casual and bad makes us happier. Competing at higher elos is stressful, agitating and ultimately pointless since 90% of high elo can't monetize their success.

Look at the KR server. In South Korea, where the government subsidizes gaming, players are cutthroat and even Bronze is a total nightmare of skill. So what happens? They cheat. They all fucking cheat.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/50fc6p/riot_korea_implements_anticheat_system_into_lol/ https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/QtGZd34E-scripting-is-getting-way-too-out-of-hand-in-korea http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4618944 https://www.riftherald.com/2016/8/31/12728208/scripting-ban-lol-korea

Having a bunch of good players is bad for the game and the community.

GinjavitisMar 6, 20181 votes

Trying to keep players from becoming more skilled in order to control the happiness of a game is kind of a silly concept, personally if i don't improve i get more agitated. I don't like to feel better compared to much worse opponents, i much prefer to fail in comparison to better opponents to get better, it doesn't feel amazing but my competitive spirit is much more satisfied after.

I'm not trying to debate the logic to what your saying, i'm more saying that being encouraged, i dare say forced, to do something instead of having the free will to do it is inherently worse.

The Yetii RiderMar 6, 20182 votes

And yet people have the power to rise above it. There are players who have risen up to Challenger since the mage update was introduced. You have the free will to do it, there are just more hurdles than before.

GinjavitisMar 7, 20181 votes

Oh i definitely agree that people are always going to overcome it, and i also agree that there are hurdles added to prove someone deserves it. But i still think trying to KEEP the players bad is a negative thing.

The Yetii RiderMar 7, 20181 votes

And I say that trying to MAKE players good (as paying them to succeed seems to do in Korea) is also a negative thing.

And I would add that "I have less satisfaction because I'm not as good and I don't feel like I'm improving" is less bad than "I feel as though it is impossible for me to climb out of Silver without resorting to scripting".

T4underboltMar 4, 20183 votes

Mages have skillshot, ADCs right-click you. The difference is huge.

Spank the FoxMar 5, 20184 votes

Mages have longer ranges than auto attacks, the difference is huge

A lot of mages have CC, even hard CC, while auto attacks have none, the difference is huge.

See how observing things in a vaccum skews perception? The difference is huge.

BlåbæretMar 5, 20182 votes

Mages may deal more or the same total damage because of AoE, but that's not really representative of the damage that actually matters. Everyone knows mages can't even begin to dent tanks. A mage has to hit skillshots, an ADC right clicks to win.

Only mages are gated by their resources late game. It's only fair that other carry classes are as well. No reason for ADC to be able to keep spamming right clicks while the mage has to back because he's oom while the ADC is at 100%.

dunder killMar 5, 20183 votes

Hmmmm that's weird how AoE isn't a strength because it would make your argument sound silly. You're actually trying to present AoE as a weakness xD

Top kek my friend

BlåbæretMar 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Hmmmm that's weird how AoE isn't a strength because it would make your argument sound silly. You're actually trying to present AoE as a weakness xD

Top kek my friend

AoE champs will always top damage. The question isn't if they're topping damage, it's by how much they're topping. Currently mages really aren't dealing the damage they're supposed to be dealing with only 2-3 exceptions. A burst mage gets outbursted by an ADC with shiv + IE.

Totally Not JinxMar 5, 20183 votes

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GinjavitisMar 5, 20182 votes

AoE recently has it's power in lessened because of shields and heals. It does have inherently lower numbers and higher CDs, plus now that other lanes can all optimize for AoE (tiamat items, runaans, shiv) it's novelty had been taken away. Mage AoE is definitely stronger than most, but late game my brand E actually hurts less and is up less often than an ADC's IE empowered shiv. Plus, going back to my point i have to pay for my AoE whereas no one else has to pay for their AoE coming from items.

SayoriIsBigSadMar 5, 20181 votes

Generally champions that have long range/poke have inflated damage done to champions. Not always true but they rack up more damage before fights while the frontline has to soak and sustain it all up.

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20181 votes

front line sustain where? the only thing they got is item 3083 and if they step back to use it then they have no front line soaking damage to from the back line and that should be when you commit to an engage. not to mention is a 5th item because you cant really reach the hp thresh hold before level 17 unless you are a cinderhulk jungler who wont build it because they would have no defenses to scale with the hp.

SangreDeNocheMar 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This just isn't true

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend

Plenty of mages do around the same or even more damage than ADCs. As a matter of fact, the top 5 average damage dealers are ALL mages. So please stop making up nonsense. Mage's damage is on par with ADCs and their waveclear is generally much better. Their bust is also much higher but that really depends on the champion

This stuff has to stop. Mage's are fine. Of course some are struggling but that's the same for every class. I don't understand this BS about mages being worthless

Probably a percentage thing. Since adcs are the smaller class it's easier to see more of them are doing well while roughly 18 mages doing well doesn't sound as good.

TerozuMar 5, 20181 votes

item 3027 ?

Gives us more health, more mana, causes us to heal off of mana spent and to regen mana based on damage taken.

GinjavitisMar 5, 20181 votes

Its a strong item, but in this meta there's a reason not every mid can rush this, it's a weak rush if you're an early game champion because now you're on a 10 minute timer before your first item spikes.

Along with that very, very few mages actually want to take damage, i am not going to freely take harass from my opponent or anyone else because that means that chances are i'm going die if it's post-6. Along with that as someone else already said there's a cap on how much you actually benefit and it's hardly a good trade 100 HP for 15 mana

TerozuMar 5, 20181 votes

But if your complaint is sustaining mana, and adc/support mana sustain is late game, why shouldn't yours be?

GinjavitisMar 6, 20181 votes

Adc sustain isn't late game though, Essence reaver can be a first rush and after that can all but eliminate mana problems. Their first rush can sustain mana, give them crit/AD/30% CDR....My first rush should be that strong if i'm supposed to be stronger early than them, right?

I'm not here saying they shouldn't have sustain, but i do think i should have sustain to do my job in the same way they have theirs.

TerozuMar 6, 20181 votes

Im sorry but no, if you rush Essence Reaver it only has 20% crit and is very unreliable. It scales into late game as you get more crit chance. The exact same as RoA. They both get stronger late game, and cdr is more prevalent on ap items.

GinjavitisMar 7, 20181 votes

I have seen someone with 30% crit chance crit 3 times in a row, it's hardly as unreliable as you're saying, and late game it's a guaranteed thing. RoA is strongest mid game, late game if i get damaged chances are i'm going to die 7/10 times. The passive on RoA gets more dangerous the longer the games go on because it's not just poke in lane, there's gonna be follow up if it's a team fight. it's strongest when i'm roaming and i'm going to be able to afford getting damaged in a 2v1 situation going top or helping my jg.

TerozuMar 7, 20181 votes

3 crits is only 9% mana.

Tzuyu Is My BiasMar 4, 20183 votes

Tanks who build catalyst also literally never run out of mana. Like why.

GinjavitisMar 4, 20183 votes

The one mana sustain item that allows you to get consistent mana back requires you to take damage. When they can build RoA/abyssal and then warmogs and get free 3k hp of health regen in 10 second then they don’t have to worry about getting poked for their mana. Plus they get stats that compliment like health regen in other forms.

LordGeovanniMar 4, 20181 votes

I run out of mana when i build catalist all the time becuase 1 it reliant on my enemy attacking me and 2 the mana you get per attack is capped at 20 for 100 + damage when im taking 300 damage chunks at least and my hp pool is only 3000 hp or less

GinjavitisMar 4, 20182 votes

The mana regen on it is still very situational i don;t like that you have to take damage on it to actuallly get soemthing back my point was that you can actually afford to use it 90% more than any mage because if i get hit by something chances are i'm gonna dies anywhere passed 15-20 minutes

LordGeovanniMar 5, 20181 votes

I dont like it either but Fighters and Tanks who have Less overall damage, range, base defenses, base hp, base mana, mana regen. Even or more Base damage. More cooldown on spells and less scaling damage than mages have to put up with it. While new mage items pop out with near same hp while having damage on it as tanks have hp on items with gimped defenses because there is hp. item 3152 item 3151 item 3165 item 3001 item 3194 (55 magic resist) tanks and fighters have to use item 3193 with the condition that 3 champions are around them in easy attack range to get the most magic resist on one item in the game other wise the item with the most magic resist per item is item 3102 with a lot of ap on it only 10 off regular ap items and 30 of the op ap items which is only 217 gold effeicency of the former and 657 gold efficiency ap wise off of top ap items. other Hp magic resist items fighters and tanks have to use barely have 1 ruby crystal worth more health item 3065 and for armor item 3742 item 3068 and item 3075 (which is the reverse of the former 2 with more into armor than health like the other 2.) Mages get very decent Buys into a stat that isnt supposed to be their core stat on their core items while being near the same as for tanks and fighters when its a core stat for tanks and fighters. The same goes for tanks and fighters if they get hit by something riot doesnt give them excapes so they either have to fight or keep taking the damage because everything else is faster than them item 3113 item 3086 and they cant take more than 2 rounds of any mages combo or adcs for more than 3 seconds because if they do the various mage and adc communities complain 'i spend so much gold into damage why cant I 1 shot the tanks who also spend so much gold into defense they are far to tanky its unfun nerf them'

GinjavitisMar 5, 20181 votes

I agree about fighters they don;t really have many strengths right now because they're all at the mercy of their kit having some kind of ability to damage, avoid, or get to an ADC and survive all the way. Tanks do have mana options, and after one MR item and more HP items they now are very difficult to deal with on most mages. Plus with the introduction of boneplating and adaptive mages just got an item added that is stronger against them than randuins into an ADC, which is huge considering that we already have problems dealing with a lot of people. Fighters are still very strong against most mages that don't have good kiting mechanics because in a fight where you get to us, we can't kill you faster than you can kill us, which is what's supposed to happen when a fighter jumps onto a mage lol. Mages do get nice items to increase a bit of survivability, but it doesn't at all mean we're tanky we don't have the luxury to build MR, Armor, HP and still do amazing damage, it definitely still affects us.

Evil Bisex PlantMar 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Tanks who build catalyst also literally never run out of mana. Like why.

Offtopic:

I knew your nick was familiar! We meet very often on ARAMs on my main acc, lmao

Tzuyu Is My BiasMar 5, 20182 votes

Nice, what is its name?

Evil Bisex PlantMar 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Nice, what is its name?

BisexualPlantBoi - I might have been a bit toxic, happens time to time when my moral is low x)

EedatMar 4, 20183 votes

Probably Riot acknowledging the problem with old Morello where you buy one item and then never run out of Mana again

LordGeovanniMar 4, 20181 votes

Except that they added so much mana to mage items its gonna take 5 times longer to lose all your mana even when spamming your spells off cooldown

GinjavitisMar 4, 20182 votes

That's definitely not true, their idea of nerfing a lot of mages hits their mana costs quite often. Taliyah's big nerf that removed her from popular pro play was a nerf that gave her a 100 mana cost on her main poking ability. We still have to use spells on waves to have any effect on them as well as being able to have them in fights to provide meaningful support, and that's where they keep hitting us despite removing ability to replenish it. I would honestly like longer CDs and more regen so i can't hit people as often, but at least i get to hit them if i build mana in order to do it. We're forced into a mana centric build path, delaying our power spikes, and still we don't get the freedom of using our spells

NyarlathοtepMar 4, 20182 votes

Well they could have lowered the mana regen component. Not outright remove it, but w/e. Riot has been destroying the game for a while.

SangreDeNocheMar 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Probably Riot acknowledging the problem with old Morello where you buy one item and then never run out of Mana again

But the solution to that is to split the mana gain between the main items they use isn't it? Not remove it completely and make everything they were using become magic pen.