Bias in Casting

Ginjavitis·Jun 5, 2017·4 votes·1,321 views

Can we please stop putting one team up on a pedestal and constantly bashing every other team. No matter how the game is played SKT is always praised through mistakes, losses, poor decisions, and bad individual performance. I just finished the SKT/BBQ and the SKT/SSG games tonight....during the BBQ game they were entirely disrespectful during every instance of the game, Tempt (BBQ mid) a quadra at one point due to poor positioning and engage by SKT, do they praise them at all for doing a good job? No. They only point out that peanut was able to get the drag during the entire fight and saying that they fell right into SKT's trap during the whole ordeal, they didn't fall into a trap; they played well and they showed very good coordination and exploited weaknesses in SKT's decisions. The SSG game was even worse, SSG beat them very handily in 2 back to back game and there was almost zero praise given for them, eveything they said about them winning was followed by: SKT just got back from MSI, they had no time to prepare, they had jet lag (1 week after returning from MSI), they weren't top notch, the meta is different. First of all, they have plenty of time to play on the new patch while at MSI to practice and see meta changes, second, a week is all this new patch has been out, so hasn't everyone else had the same amount of time to prepare for it?? Stop making excuses for why the caster favored team is still better than a team that just destroyed them TWICE. If any members on SKT die and make mistakes it's never an outplay, it's only ever a mistake from them, how hard is it to give credit where credit is due? The most annoying part of the whole series was one comment as Huni outplayed the opposing top laner (I can't recall which game it was) it was very, very close but Huni got the last hit, and their comment was "it should be written on his tombstone that he was almost good enough and that he almost made it." How do we ever expect anyone to do well against this team when not only are they having to play against a very, very skilled team, but also anytime they do good and win it's never because of their own skill, decisions, or playmaking abilities, it's another excuse for SKT, truly ridiculous excuses. SKT is an amazing team, the most dominant we have ever seen and maybe the most dominant that will ever be, but the bias shown in favor of them at every chance leaves little hope for any team going against them seeing as how they will never truly get the credit they deserve. When a player in the game refuses to acknowledge their mistakes as a reason for their loss, we call them toxic. When a person refuses to give any constructive criticism about the current world champions, we make them a caster.

27 Comments

III BAKURYU III Jun 5, 20174 votes

I actually agree, I think it was KT where they lost with 0 kills, towers, dragons etc and the casters were like " KT will bounce back, this team has so much talent, they just need to find their footing and keep on grinding and oh, gj SSG" lol. The SKT situation was pretty similar, the thing is the casters etc really have no choice but to keep talking about the tier A teams because there's 90% chance SKT/KT will rebound while the other teams most likely won't be even top 2 by season end. I'm not saying SSG/BBG etc won't be good but SKT will rebound, win LCK and head off to win Worlds.

It was one the of things that annoyed me about Montecristo He never really gave much credit to the underdogs in any match up or game, he would just scrunch up his face( that face when you're on the toilet) and be like " Yeah, but....." Point is I too thought it was weird in both cases but what you going to do you know.

GinjavitisJun 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=qkyAmmtc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-05T05:10:41.135+0000)

I actually agree, I think it was KT where they lost with 0 kills, towers, dragons etc and the casters were like " KT will bounce back, this team has so much talent, they just need to find their footing and keep on grinding and oh, gj SSG" lol. The SKT situation was pretty similar, the thing is the casters etc really have no choice but to keep talking about the tier A teams because there's 90% chance SKT/KT will rebound while the other teams most likely won't be even top 2 by season end. I'm not saying SSG/BBG etc won't be good but SKT will rebound, win LCK and head off to win Worlds.

It was one the of things that annoyed me about Montecristo He never really gave much credit to the underdogs in any match up or game, he would just scrunch up his face( that face when you're on the toilet) and be like " Yeah, but....." Point is I too thought it was weird in both cases but what you going to do you know.

I'm perfectly happy with them constantly referencing them as they are the current pinnacle of league success, but just because of that it doesn't give them the right to take cheap shots and be rude to all of their opponents.

xJLx MCHammerJun 5, 20174 votes

It was much much worse under monte

III BAKURYU III Jun 5, 20173 votes

Agree, like I always thought he wanted NA or other regions/Western to do well against the LCK but say whenever a Western team didn't beat or looked really good in losing efforts against these great LCK teams he would be like " Lck beat a bad region" - Bad region beats LCK teams " X region didn't beat the LCK team, the LCK beat LCK" like damn if I do- damn if I don't with that guy, nothing pleases him and in way, shape or form.

GinjavitisJun 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=qkyAmmtc,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-06-05T18:35:49.438+0000)

Agree, like I always thought he wanted NA or other regions/Western to do well against the LCK but say whenever a Western team didn't beat or looked really good in losing efforts against these great LCK teams he would be like " Lck beat a bad region" - Bad region beats LCK teams " X region didn't beat the LCK team, the LCK beat LCK" like damn if I do- damn if I don't with that guy, nothing pleases him and in way, shape or form.

Exactly, what is the point in trying to win a competition if either way you get no praise? If you win, it's because they messed up, if you try really hard and lose nothing will be said about you, and if you lose in a really bad fashion (like a wildcard region) you are completely insignificant and it was the only possible outcome.

woodvsmurphJun 7, 20172 votes

Which makes coming out as the surprise victor all the better. Just ask TPA season 2.

GinjavitisJun 8, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Which makes coming out as the surprise victor all the better. Just ask TPA season 2.

I loved season 2 and loved them winning, but there's a difference between being an underdog and being rooted and bet against by casters. Being the underdog gives more incentive to fight and win to prove them wrong, it you're rooted against there's no way you're going to win in the eyes of those rooting against you.

woodvsmurphJun 9, 20171 votes

There was some caster bias, but as you say - nothing like today. But when casters are that stupidly biased, screw them. Who cares what they think - they don't know anything; they're just bandwagoning at that point. I don't watch basketball, but I'm sure there's plenty of it going on with Lebron James right now - people who claim you need 4 superstars just to beat him as if he has no star players on his team and others who will call him trash if they get swept. Yeah it's no fun, but screw those people - they don't have a clue what they are talking about.

GinjavitisJun 9, 20171 votes

Completely agree, that's why I like a decent amount of EU casters best because they seem to have the most fun and not be as biased as Korea and some NA

Sagan ForeverJun 5, 20173 votes

What about when G2 loses to SKT 1-3 and most of the post game is talking about how amazing G2 is. Like I get they are an LCS team, but going 5-1(over all of MSI) is not that impressive. In international if the Koreans do not smash then the other team is amazing even if they lose.

Although I do agree that in Korea itself the bias swaps places and suddenly unless SKT/SSG/KT are smashed then the other team does not get the proper cred.

Ps I wonder why this year SKT played in week one of summer, when last year they got the first week off because it would unfair if they played without proper prep time.

woodvsmurphJun 7, 20173 votes

Some casters are better than others. Korean casters - at least the English stream ones - tend to have their favorite players and teams. If you are not a member of either of those, you are just bad in their eyes. For instance when gnar was a new champ and before frozen mallet became standard on him, I remember a Korean toplaner building it on gnar first item instead of cleaver and getting flamed by the caster for it (because he wasn't the favored toplaner in the matchup). There is just no logical reason to build that item on gnar is basically what the caster claimed and ranted about it for over 5 min - I saw the logic of it within 20 sec of the item being purchased. Next week, a favored toplaner builds it and he is a genius.

GinjavitisJun 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Some casters are better than others. Korean casters - at least the English stream ones - tend to have their favorite players and teams. If you are not a member of either of those, you are just bad in their eyes. For instance when gnar was a new champ and before frozen mallet became standard on him, I remember a Korean toplaner building it on gnar first item instead of cleaver and getting flamed by the caster for it (because he wasn't the favored toplaner in the matchup). There is just no logical reason to build that item on gnar is basically what the caster claimed and ranted about it for over 5 min - I saw the logic of it within 20 sec of the item being purchased. Next week, a favored toplaner builds it and he is a genius.

lol exactly, SKT fights and wins a huge fight but loses infernal "great fight capitalizing on the enemy team's tunnel vision." Other team kills 5 members of SKT but loses ocean drake "great job by SKT to make sure they got the objective as it's more important than kills"

Miror BJun 5, 20172 votes

Yeah, SKT has won 3 world championships and theoretically has the best roster money can buy right now. If the casters want to suggest that their parents are better than the players in the other regions, who are we to say otherwise?

GinjavitisJun 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, SKT has won 3 world championships and theoretically has the best roster money can buy right now. If the casters want to suggest that their parents are better than the players in the other regions, who are we to say otherwise?

Honestly, I haven't been impressed with the individual performances of SKT this year, faker has been beaten in many 1v1s, peanut couldn't seem to get the hang of ivern (although if he's on a carry jg I will say he's probably the best player currently in the world) and wolf/bang have been rather lackluster especially on Ashe imo compared to what they normally are. Huni has really been stepping up in his lane, and their shot calling/objective control/team fighting is still top notch. They are by far the most consistently dominant team.

Miror BJun 6, 20172 votes

I slightly agree, but also disagree a bit. For SKT, the "big adjustment" didn't so much come with the actual patches/metas but more with the sheer talent they had around them. In past seasons, they were rarely gifted players who had proven themselves in the past (with duke/marin being pretty obscure and blanc being a rather unknown solo-queue commodity). The fact these players have not only adapted so quickly to their system but arguably made it better (peanut adding another legitimate threat to their games now as you could argue that bengi/blanc were never this calculated) reminds me a lot of the 16-0 patriots team who lost to the giants, only that I highly doubt they'll fall due to ridiculous circumstances.

GinjavitisJun 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I slightly agree, but also disagree a bit. For SKT, the "big adjustment" didn't so much come with the actual patches/metas but more with the sheer talent they had around them. In past seasons, they were rarely gifted players who had proven themselves in the past (with duke/marin being pretty obscure and blanc being a rather unknown solo-queue commodity). The fact these players have not only adapted so quickly to their system but arguably made it better (peanut adding another legitimate threat to their games now as you could argue that bengi/blanc were never this calculated) reminds me a lot of the 16-0 patriots team who lost to the giants, only that I highly doubt they'll fall due to ridiculous circumstances.

yeah i definitely agree that adding peanut has been great for them, he's definitely a fantastic option for a carry this year since it's made easier from the jg and faker has been going even most of his game, if not being a little behind, crown honestly might be the best solo mid laner right now currently as you can't give over a syndra or other signiture champion like SKT tends to do and just outplay him anyway. Like i said i think calling SKT the absolute best indisputable team isn't correct, they're the most consistently dominant/top tier team. SSG on a good match/day can go toe to toe easily

woodvsmurphJun 7, 20172 votes

If skt is going to fall at worlds here's how it happens: Group 1: SKT Flashwolves Unicorns of Love ?????

Lose both games to either UOL or FW, split series with the other, lose tie-breaker.

Miror BJun 7, 20173 votes

For me, I'd personally like to see a group in which the top-laners are super annoying to play against (potentially one with gigabyte marines in it). Then we could have a chance at seeing huni tilting, which from what I can understand is theoretically the best "win condition" when playing against that team (tilt the new players, and force faker/bang/wolf to "3-man it" ).

woodvsmurphJun 7, 20171 votes

No, i don't think you can pull that off too easily. As long as there are tanks with stupid strong base stats and triple doran start, huni can just play those and never be an issue for his team. Skt's "weakness" is when teams get illogical/inoptimal pressure on them early and carry through on their lead with more pressure in unpredicted ways while having good mid/late shotcalling and teamfighting to finish off SKT when they try to stall it out. SKT is smart. They know how to close if they get an early lead, so you probably lose if you fall significantly behind early on. If you get ahead, they are experts at stalling and punishing most aggression that other teams use to try to grow their early advantages. For most teams, skt seems to know what the enemy will do to snowball small advantages before the other team can get all their pieces in place and make the most logical next step to pressing their advantage. Thus skt rotates everyone in time to punish the aggression. But when you take a team that doesn't do the most logical/most optimal next step, skt isn't prepared for it and they end up falling further behind because they had prepared for the most logical step - not the unpredicted/less logical aggression and they get punished for it. This is what is needed to get a significant lead. Then you need good shotcalling and teamfighting so that your lead is enough to close the game. Gigabyte was really fun to watch and would do well vs many teams at worlds - hopefully we get the chance to see that happen - but I think their aggression is a bit too punishable by teams like skt because it either ends up being too inoptimal or happens just a bit too slow so that it can get outplayed or matched.

And by illogical/inoptimal I mean stuff like having the perfect setup to 4 or 5 man dive bot early game... only to 3 man mid out of nowhere. So skt positions and prepares to counter-gank the 4 man dive of bot only to get caught unprepared for the 3 man dive mid as a hypothetical example. Thus they are punished for being behind early and for preparing for the wrong play - the wrong play that was the most logical play most teams would have chosen to do.

GinjavitisJun 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, i don't think you can pull that off too easily. As long as there are tanks with stupid strong base stats and triple doran start, huni can just play those and never be an issue for his team. Skt's "weakness" is when teams get illogical/inoptimal pressure on them early and carry through on their lead with more pressure in unpredicted ways while having good mid/late shotcalling and teamfighting to finish off SKT when they try to stall it out. SKT is smart. They know how to close if they get an early lead, so you probably lose if you fall significantly behind early on. If you get ahead, they are experts at stalling and punishing most aggression that other teams use to try to grow their early advantages. For most teams, skt seems to know what the enemy will do to snowball small advantages before the other team can get all their pieces in place and make the most logical next step to pressing their advantage. Thus skt rotates everyone in time to punish the aggression. But when you take a team that doesn't do the most logical/most optimal next step, skt isn't prepared for it and they end up falling further behind because they had prepared for the most logical step - not the unpredicted/less logical aggression and they get punished for it. This is what is needed to get a significant lead. Then you need good shotcalling and teamfighting so that your lead is enough to close the game. Gigabyte was really fun to watch and would do well vs many teams at worlds - hopefully we get the chance to see that happen - but I think their aggression is a bit too punishable by teams like skt because it either ends up being too inoptimal or happens just a bit too slow so that it can get outplayed or matched.

And by illogical/inoptimal I mean stuff like having the perfect setup to 4 or 5 man dive bot early game... only to 3 man mid out of nowhere. So skt positions and prepares to counter-gank the 4 man dive of bot only to get caught unprepared for the 3 man dive mid as a hypothetical example. Thus they are punished for being behind early and for preparing for the wrong play - the wrong play that was the most logical play most teams would have chosen to do.

Or a lucian mid that goes 8-1 with 2 complete solo kills on faker :3

woodvsmurphJun 9, 20171 votes

And yet they still had to end game asap or get outscaled by the mage mid and lose because they had no burst damage for the enemy frontline.

GinjavitisJun 9, 20171 votes

They had a 2-0-12 Shen in top lane, I think they would have done ok since the only frontline for SKT was Galio against double AD, now late game team fights where everything was even as far as items would have been much more tough than the early game definitely.

GinjavitisJun 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

For me, I'd personally like to see a group in which the top-laners are super annoying to play against (potentially one with gigabyte marines in it). Then we could have a chance at seeing huni tilting, which from what I can understand is theoretically the best "win condition" when playing against that team (tilt the new players, and force faker/bang/wolf to "3-man it" ).

Right now i think as long as peanut has a good game they'll win, he's so difficult to fight against on his carry champs that i just want them to force him off of lee and graves and onto a more defensive/support jungler then they'll have the best chance to win. Huni tilts in the way that he's always going to take a fight that he's at a disadvantage and use his skill to win anyways, when he's super far behind then it starts to really weigh the team down. I think bot lane would be the lane to focus on tilting though, i haven't been super impressed this year with them at all.

PyroAeroVampireJun 6, 20172 votes

I have noticed this quite a bit with TSM in NA. I've noticed that if a team sends 4 bot to tower dive the duo lane and gets both kills but burns like 5 summoners except the supports flash, the casters will make note of the fact that "That many summoners on just two kills may hurt them in the next 5 or so minutes," especially if they can't get a drake or the tower off of it. But I remember when TSM did that, they burned EVERY summoner to burn, including Hauntzer's TP (which he cancelled) and yet credited TSM for their smart map play, even though then didn't get any objectives off of it.

For example, in Week 1 of this split, in the TSM vs IMT game, Bjergsen got a 4 man E because Xmithie kicked him towards the team and the rest of IMT didn't have the time to split up before getting CC'd. However, Kobe, not noticing Xmithie's kick, instantly credited Bjergsen with an amazing flank that IMT never saw coming, and only corrected himself when he saw the replay of Xmithie's kick.

I think it's just because the casters are not just professionals, but are, at heart, fans of the teams they watch. It's simply unfortunate that they can't keep themselves from slipping and accidentally showing caster bias every once in a while.

GinjavitisJun 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I have noticed this quite a bit with TSM in NA. I've noticed that if a team sends 4 bot to tower dive the duo lane and gets both kills but burns like 5 summoners except the supports flash, the casters will make note of the fact that "That many summoners on just two kills may hurt them in the next 5 or so minutes," especially if they can't get a drake or the tower off of it. But I remember when TSM did that, they burned EVERY summoner to burn, including Hauntzer's TP (which he cancelled) and yet credited TSM for their smart map play, even though then didn't get any objectives off of it.

For example, in Week 1 of this split, in the TSM vs IMT game, Bjergsen got a 4 man E because Xmithie kicked him towards the team and the rest of IMT didn't have the time to split up before getting CC'd. However, Kobe, not noticing Xmithie's kick, instantly credited Bjergsen with an amazing flank that IMT never saw coming, and only corrected himself when he saw the replay of Xmithie's kick.

I think it's just because the casters are not just professionals, but are, at heart, fans of the teams they watch. It's simply unfortunate that they can't keep themselves from slipping and accidentally showing caster bias every once in a while.

Yeah, personally I can't stand TSM because of regi, but having little fanboy moments occasionally is perfectly fine, like someone above me said about sports casters and their favorite teams. Constantly having fanboy moments and never being objective, like they seem to be toward SKT, is completely opposite of what they're supposed to be doing though, which is narrating the match and giving correct conjectures as to what's happening. I understand the need to be entertaining, but that's done through playful banter and tone changes, not raising one team above all others.

YambrinZJun 5, 20171 votes

Its no different in regular sports. If your team is the Lakers or the Cowboys or the Yankees or the Patriots, your team is garbage and inferior.

GinjavitisJun 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Its no different in regular sports. If your team is the Lakers or the Cowboys or the Yankees or the Patriots, your team is garbage and inferior.

Yeah my wife and I were watching the matches last night and we were trying to compare it to sports trash talk, but the completely unnecessary bashing and somewhat personal attacks were infuriating to both of us.