counter picking is a real problem

hotarse·Jun 11, 2016·2 votes·1,671 views

i'm speaking on behalf of your average joe playing ranked. first of all, matches will often feel really uneven since your game has champions who are too good at countering other champions.

too much of the game is decided at champ select.

do i need to provide examples? best jungle champ against zed? elise, her rappel negates his ulti.

x is countered by y. team who can play y well wins against teams who play x. skill doesn't make a big difference

only kids play this game anymore.

do your kids spend a lot of money. maybe they do, if they can get a hold of pop's credit card.

but imo, you made a wrong decision to forsake your mainstay, your boo, your olden glories. you should've listened to our qualms and responded to them rightfully.

gg riot. you may not post your numbers, but I'm pretty sure you're bleeding players left and right. Darius would be pleased.

lates

40 Comments

EndlessSorcererJun 11, 20169 votes

League is probably one of the MOBAs counter-picking matters the least in. You can generally play around the opponent in League and there are very few actual hard-counters.

I'd hate to see how you would react to coutner-picking (or tri-lanes) in DotA. If you get counter-picked in DotA, you are going to be of very little use for most of the game.

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

League is probably one of the MOBAs counter-picking matters the least in. You can generally play around the opponent in League and there are very few actual hard-counters.

I'd hate to see how you would react to coutner-picking (or tri-lanes) in DotA. If you get counter-picked in DotA, you are going to be of very little use for most of the game.

more or less, it's irrelevent, looking at this game specifically, it is still a problem. you've been pwned. good night kiddo!

archerno1Jun 11, 20166 votes

Your arguments would have value if there were only X and Y in game. What about other 8 players? Sure X may counters Y on lane, but what if pick from Y gets destroyed by other opponent picks or make it useless? For example:

Trundle counters Riven on lane easily. He wins that matchup. But if opponent mid laner is Ryze, Trundle wont have much fun in that game. Also there are laneswaps, jungler ganks.

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Your arguments would have value if there were only X and Y in game. What about other 8 players?

time to pwn another kiddo. let's me make clear that which you clearly did not understand due to your lack of comprehension. if team A has a player who plays counter champion well while team B plays champion is countered, regardless of how well team B plays their champion (or champions, since more than one can be countered) then team A wins.

for your argument to work, team A and B must be able to play all champions equally, yet this is obviously not the case since players do not play all champions equally. they play a select few well, others alright, and most poorly. Team that have players who have champs in their pools who counter the champs on the other team will win.

how'd that big ball of PWN taste kidDo?

archerno1Jun 11, 20166 votes

{quoted}

time to pwn another kiddo. let's me make clear that which you clearly did not understand due to your lack of comprehension. if team A has a player who plays counter champion well while team B plays champion is countered, regardless of how well team B plays their champion (or champions, since more than one can be countered) then team A wins.

for your argument to work, team A and B must be able to play all champions equally, yet this is obviously not the case since players do not play all champions equally. they play a select few well, others alright, and most poorly. Team that have players who have champs in their pools who counter the champs on the other team will win.

how'd that big ball of PWN taste kidDo?

There is such thing called lane swap kiddo. Such thing called jungler KIDDO. You can play safe KIDDO. Just because one champion counters other on lane doesnt mean they have higher impact in teamfights kiddo. Only thing that matters in this game is skill KIDDO. Not our fault u have none KIDDO.

How does this PWN taste KIDDO?

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Savage DeviJun 11, 20164 votes

lane swaps do not occur in average ranked games

Objectively wrong. All you need to do is find a situation where a lane swap helps and ask.

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Savage Devi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aed48E0q,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-11T18:59:20.418+0000)

Objectively wrong. All you need to do is find a situation where a lane swap helps and ask.

objectively WRONG, cuz even if you ask for a laneswap, laneswaps require practice and experience to pull off well. just asking a rando group to do it when they've never done it before doesn't mean it will happen. oh man, it's almost too easy to dish out the PWN this time. maybe they should hold you back from hitting level 7th grade. you simply do not have enough experience points to make it KIDDo...

Savage DeviJun 11, 20165 votes

You grossly overestimate the amount of "skill and practice" needed for a successful laneswap. Even silver players can handle it.

archerno1Jun 11, 20165 votes

{quoted}

it tastes like LMAO. that's a fun flavor that comes in multiple shapes and sizes. btw, did you not see that I addressed this thread to the average joes of league of legends? that's right, lane swaps do not occur in average ranked games. do you know what? i think you earned your first badge of dumbnity. yeah, look that up, it's a word, kiDDo. PWWWWWWND!

Well im in gold, and there are lane swaps often there. And as gold is middle elo, i believe its considered average.

redniwediSJun 11, 20161 votes

I actually think silver is considered average. It's more of how the total population sits in the ranks, rather than which rank is in the middle.

Here's a link you might find interesting.

EndlessSorcererJun 11, 20161 votes

IIRC, Silver 4 is the median of the ELO range.

I think 70% of players are in Bronze and Silver combined.

Also, I didn't know about that website. I used to reference LoL GlobalStats which had a similar chart, but I think they've closed the site.

redniwediSJun 11, 20163 votes

Yes, let's look at this game specifically.

This season has the least problems with counter picking of any past season. Riot has made a ton of progress reducing counter picking, and are still attempting to do so. They don't want any champion to be made useless simply because the enemy picked their champion after.

Your complaining is completely redundant and useless.

ValyrianBladeJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

League is probably one of the MOBAs counter-picking matters the least in. You can generally play around the opponent in League and there are very few actual hard-counters.

I'd hate to see how you would react to coutner-picking (or tri-lanes) in DotA. If you get counter-picked in DotA, you are going to be of very little use for most of the game.

What role do you play?

When I play ADC, I feel like counters don't exist at all.

When I used to play mid, I felt like there were limited counters, but they still existed. You could get around it by asking for early ganks though.

When I play top, I feel like counters decide things pretty regularly. Doesn't even matter if you get ganks because the enemy laner will get a countergank and you'll be even further behind. Once you're down 2 kills it's pretty much done because your lane opponent can now either 1v1 dive you under tower, or 1v2 you with the jungler. Top lane is brutal for counterpicking and balance.

Support and Jungle both have limited counter picks. Neither is really fighting in a lane so it's not a huge problem.

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What role do you play?

When I play ADC, I feel like counters don't exist at all.

When I used to play mid, I felt like there were limited counters, but they still existed. You could get around it by asking for early ganks though.

When I play top, I feel like counters decide things pretty regularly. Doesn't even matter if you get ganks because the enemy laner will get a countergank and you'll be even further behind. Once you're down 2 kills it's pretty much done because your lane opponent can now either 1v1 dive you under tower, or 1v2 you with the jungler. Top lane is brutal for counterpicking and balance.

Support and Jungle both have limited counter picks. Neither is really fighting in a lane so it's not a huge problem.

your feels are definitely valid bro, like totally. i feel your feels. it must be right cuz you feel it so bro. NOT. kiddo get pwnd

ValyrianBladeJun 11, 20163 votes

{quoted}

your feels are definitely valid bro, like totally. i feel your feels. it must be right cuz you feel it so bro. NOT. kiddo get pwnd

Why would you troll someone who supported your point?

I don't get people these days... too many idiots...

EndlessSorcererJun 11, 20162 votes

I play top and jungle primarily.

While I do find some match-ups can be annoying in the top lane, that tends to rely on the players involved knowing how to play it appropriately and you can always work around it if you know what you are doing (or play as a team).

Even if you are losing, you can generally pick up farm (i.e. shove out and farm a jungle camp, freeze the wave near your tower and call your jungler, etc).

While it's brutal if you fall behind, most lanes are like that. If you fall behind, you will likely keep falling behind regardless of match-up.

ValyrianBladeJun 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I play top and jungle primarily.

While I do find some match-ups can be annoying in the top lane, that tends to rely on the players involved knowing how to play it appropriately and you can always work around it if you know what you are doing (or play as a team).

Even if you are losing, you can generally pick up farm (i.e. shove out and farm a jungle camp, freeze the wave near your tower and call your jungler, etc).

While it's brutal if you fall behind, most lanes are like that. If you fall behind, you will likely keep falling behind regardless of match-up.

What I mean is, in top lane if you're in a counter matchup you'll get zoned off of cs as early as level 2 (assuming equally skilled players, or close to it). If your jungler doesn't gank at level 3 (read, most junglers you're not in a premade with) that's going to add up pretty quickly. There's no option to shove out the wave and pick up a camp when the enemy laner is denying you CS (best case is to last hit under tower while taking harass or getting dove). By the time your late ganking jungler hits 6, the enemy laner has a sufficient lead to 1v2.

And I mean, I honestly don't think these are lopsided skill matchups. A lot of these I'll go like 0-2 or 0-3 in lane as Jarvan 4, completely ignore the lane and roam to help my team out, then finish the game with a score like 4/4/18 and get an S rank, while my lane opponent goes 6/6/2 or something like that. Which I understand sort of proves the point that you can play against it and win, but the inherent advantage is pretty unfair. You can't lane legitimately and need to have allies that are willing to accept taking an early disadvantage and waiting for teamfights. And this is with a champion that really strongly excels in both picks and teamfights (because of insanely hard engage) - there are a plethora of top laners who don't have that to fall back on - they're supposed to be strong laners but they have counterpicks that make their lives miserable.

Kei143Jun 11, 20163 votes

why would a zed ult an elise in the first place?

and once a zed learns that elise can rapel the ult, zed can just hold onot the ult instead of using it at first use right away.

A good zed player would be able to play around his weaknesses against his counters. So that is more based around decisions / timing than being countered.

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

why would a zed ult an elise in the first place?

and once a zed learns that elise can rapel the ult, zed can just hold onot the ult instead of using it at first use right away.

why would zed ult an elise. um i donnu. ask the pros who did it recently in an LCS GAME. maybe they can explain to you why they ulti'd an elise. PWND kiddO.

Kei143Jun 11, 20163 votes

oh. you are reffering to pro play, which is a different thing entirely as most of them can use the champ to its fullest potential. Plus the communication / coordination to take advantage small mistakes and snowball even the smallest lead.

If thats the case, yes I agree that the whole game can be decided in champ select.

However, in regular play, it is far from the turth.

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

oh. you are reffering to pro play, which is a different thing entirely as most of them can use the champ to its fullest potential. Plus the communication / coordination to take advantage small mistakes and snowball even the smallest lead.

If thats the case, yes I agree that the whole game can be decided in champ select.

However, in regular play, it is far from the turth.

oh boy it would be fun just to make light of your spelling of turth just because it sounds funny, but it's just a typo i know, but still. say turth. it sounds really funny! but no, my example of pro play is simply showing that if the pros ult elise as zed then the noobs will do that even more often. think about what you say before you say it kidDO. You wouldn't want to look dUmB.

Kei143Jun 11, 20162 votes

naw, the n00bs would just try to ult the adc every time while trying to run through the team of tanks / bruiser / CC.

Even if they are successful in ulting the adc, when they return to the shadow, it'll be 1v4 in the sea of CCs.

ZelnickJun 11, 20162 votes

Well counterpicking matters for laning, like which lanes are going to get pushed, which lanes are going to freeze, which lanes are going to outscale, which lanes can take advantage of an early head-start, so counter picking does matter in that sense, but after the laning phase it doesn't matter much. For instance I was just like 0/4 against yasuo with an inhib down my mid lane, both tier 1 and 2 bot towers dead, both tier 1 and 2 top towers dead, and even though yasuo countered my mage, we barely hung on after not deciding to forfeit and because I had good scaling into late game, stuck with my team and made good plays in team fights I got 15 kills in a row and ended up winning the game 15/4. We also had vayne who also outscales a lot of other champs with her passive and she made good plays to win fights.

The entire game itself isn't decided by champ select, but different parts of it are heavily influenced by it. Early game is affected by who your jungler and laners are, mid game is and late game is too, but it's not decided. If you're a late game champ against an early game opponent, you can still outplay them or your jungler can gank them to make sure they don't get ahead.

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well counterpicking matters for laning, like which lanes are going to get pushed, which lanes are going to freeze, which lanes are going to outscale, which lanes can take advantage of an early head-start, so counter picking does matter in that sense, but after the laning phase it doesn't matter much. For instance I was like 0/4 against yasuo, who countered my champ, but because I had good scaling into late game and made better plays in team fights I ended up at a legendary 15/4 at the end of the game

your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. for every x there is a certain number of y. your x is meaningless unless you can provide the number of y. also, counterpicks dont have to be lane specific. a top can pick a champ that will counter your mid. a bot can pick caitlyn to stay safe against your assassin mid. you've been pwnd. GOOD DAY KIdDO!

ZelnickJun 11, 20164 votes

{quoted}

your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. for every x there is a certain number of y. your x is meaningless unless you can provide the number of y. also, counterpicks dont have to be lane specific. a top can pick a champ that will counter your mid. a bot can pick caitlyn to stay safe against your assassin mid. you've been pwnd. GOOD DAY KIdDO!

Like I said picking doesn't decide the game, but it influences it. At different phases of the game you can make better plays you can split push you can bait you can seize objectives you can gank and roam, it's definitely not just decided at champ select, you're probably just not aware of all the different strategies you can use.

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Like I said picking doesn't decide the game, but it influences it. At different phases of the game you can make better plays you can split push you can bait you can seize objectives you can gank and roam, it's definitely not just decided at champ select, you're probably just not aware of all the different strategies you can use.

My dear Zelnick. Thank you for coming for seconds. I love to serve out PWNs. My very argument states that champion select overwhelms any sort of strategy or play you might employ. It states that it doesn't matter how good you are if you're counter picked. Just saying, No Youre wrong is not an argument. Good AFT KiDdo!

ZelnickJun 11, 20165 votes

{quoted}

My dear Zelnick. Thank you for coming for seconds. I love to serve out PWNs. My very argument states that champion select overwhelms any sort of strategy or play you might employ. It states that it doesn't matter how good you are if you're counter picked. Just saying, No Youre wrong is not an argument. Good AFT KiDdo!

You should probably look up pwned on urban dictionary or something. Knowing what champs to pick is definitely something to be learned, but statistically, you're still proven wrong.

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You should probably look up pwned on urban dictionary or something. Knowing what champs to pick is definitely something to be learned, but statistically, you're still proven wrong.

you should probably look up the word corporal in the dictionary, cuz then your argument would be wrong cuz statistics . ugh. PWND! enjoy your bowl kIDDo,

ZelnickJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

you should probably look up the word corporal in the dictionary, cuz then your argument would be wrong cuz statistics . ugh. PWND! enjoy your bowl kIDDo,

Except Riot doesn't gain money by making a multiplayer game deterministic, you clearly have no idea how this game works.

FrnakJun 11, 20162 votes

If someone first time (as in never played that champ before) "counter picks" me I'm going to rofl and enjoy the free win.

Death by GlamourJun 11, 20161 votes

Which match specifically do you have in mind?

Savage DeviJun 11, 20162 votes

The one where he loses. Because it's easier to blame the game than yourself.

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Savage Devi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aed48E0q,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-06-11T18:54:55.754+0000)

The one where he loses. Because it's easier to blame the game than yourself.

right, cuz i got worse things to do than play this game... NOT. POOOOOOOOOOWND!

Death by GlamourJun 11, 20162 votes

Well you are spending your time posting in this thread. Also i agree with you kids do play this game clearly you are one of them

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ace 1n your hole,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aed48E0q,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-11T19:02:30.661+0000)

Well you are spending your time posting in this thread. Also i agree with you kids do play this game clearly you are one of them

i do stick close the child in my heart, i know how to have fun, and am smart enough to know that league is not the way to do so, because i also have INTELLIGENCE and WISDOM that only comes with age. ouchie ouchie. how's that round of pwnage feel for you now?

hotarseJun 11, 20161 votes

Alright, some people are saying laneswapping negates my argument. I must admit that I have not been a witness to laneswaps in my time of playing LoL. Maybe I am mistaken, but when I played i never saw laneswaps, and when I suggested them, the idea was laughed away. But I still believe it takes a lot of coordination to pull of laneswaps effectively. And I do not believe that type of coordination can be counted on in ranked play unless maybe the number of premades is four or higher.

You can call me out on this, but I still don't think it negates my initial argument. I still think that counter picks will shine through regardless of laneswaps. get PWDN kiddos it's been fun.

Savage DeviJun 11, 20163 votes

Alright, some people are saying laneswapping negates my argument.

And a buttload of other factors besides laneswapping, but sure, feel free to "forget" those when they aren't convenient to you.

archerno1Jun 11, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Alright, some people are saying laneswapping negates my argument. I must admit that I have not been a witness to laneswaps in my time of playing LoL. Maybe I am mistaken, but when I played i never saw laneswaps, and when I suggested them, the idea was laughed away. But I still believe it takes a lot of coordination to pull of laneswaps effectively. And I do not believe that type of coordination can be counted on in ranked play unless maybe the number of premades is four or higher.

You can call me out on this, but I still don't think it negates my initial argument. I still think that counter picks will shine through regardless of laneswaps. get PWDN kiddos it's been fun.

What i meant by "laneswap" is not that pro players laneswap where duo lane goes top.Its about top/mid laneswap. Counters existed since begining of lol. Counters existed since begining of MOBAs.

I wonder what happened to you that caused so much toxicity to erupt in you.