Boards›Gameplay

Pantheon Nerf Suggestions

Shuyin178·Mar 25, 2016·3 votes·375 views

Back when Riot nerfed Pantheon's Heartseeker Strike (E) (which did next to nothing to him because he can still remove over half of your HP bar with 1 combo) they stated themselves that Pantheon can win every matchup he is in, EVERY matchup. They say things like this, and yet they do next to nothing to nerf him. Removing a little damage from his E did nothing to him. He can still just poke you to death in lane with his Spear Strike (Q), then stun you with Aegis of Zeonia, E you, then throw another spear. Suggestions : Double the mana cost for his Q. Doing this will remove a lot of oppressive power he has because he will not be able to poke you to death all lane long with no counter play. Another could be to scale the mana to double and increase its cooldown. 4 seconds is way to short of a cooldown for that mana cost and reliable poke. Remove the ability to set off Thunderlord's Decree with Heartseeker Strike. Right now he can chunk way to much with that spell being so easy to set off with his kit. He doesn't need his E to set it off from just poke in lane because he will just get it off during his combo.

While these suggestions seem drastic, they are necessary ones that need to at least be tested. He is way to oppressive of a laner with how much he can do for such little counterplay if even Riot themselves states he wins every matchup.

7 Comments

Shuyin178Mar 25, 20162 votes

Anyone who downvotes this post are Pantheon mains that don't want their auto-win champion nerfed. Learn a champion that isn't braindead easy.

RalanrMar 25, 20161 votes

Calm down. The changes you are suggesting are ridiculous and you should see that. You're being as biased as the so called "mains" who are downvoting you.

That E change for example is just removing synergy. That's like saying Rammus shouldn't work with Thornmail.

The mana change is overbearing considering his mana pool. He starts with about 317 and none of his abilities cost less than 45 mana. He also gets 31 mana per level (if I'm reading the wiki right). It's already a decent portion of his mana if he does his full combo. A Pantheon who just throws Q at you constantly will run out of mana.

His E does double damage to champions. But if he moves then it stops and you can move out of its relatively short range.

Pantheon is a lane bully. But unlike other bullies, he's nearly useless once the laning phase ends. He's little more than a stun bot.

You don't need to kill him in lane. You just need to survive him. Grabbing a defensive item on your first back will make it a lot easier to fight him.

Who did you play against him and what else do you play against him. Pantheon is strong, but he can't beat every match up. Tanks and beefy champions that can survive his burst have good chances against him. When I did main him (in the preseason, but I don't anymore) champions like Cho'gath and Malphite were a pain in the ass.

Shuyin178Mar 25, 20161 votes

You've played him, but you clearly have never laned against him and have been using him wrong. You can't just "walk out of his E" if you are stunned. His mana pool is irrelevant because of the ridiculously low mana costs of his spells, he can just restore his mana in time to use it again. 4 seconds on a 45 mana cost spell that is one of the most reliable pokes in the game is dumb and Riot knows it. And yes Riot themselves have said that he wins every lane. "Annoying" matchups are not counters by any stretch. Malphite and Cho'Gath are both just as vulnerable against him as everything else that goes top lane. The only possible counter he might have had was Fiora because of her Riposte negating his stun, but Riot nerfed her into the ground this patch. Also, his E doesn't do double damage against champions, it does reduced damage to all non-champions. You claim to main him but don't know that making anything you say questionable.

RalanrMar 25, 2016

I'm just going to assume your anger is clouding your judgement because the odds of never laning against him is incredibly low. I have laned against him, I know he's frustrating as hell when he lands his stun and all ins you. I know how annoying it is to trade with him because of his passive. I have mastery rank 5 with over 60 K on him before I stopped playing him. I will admit I could be wrong on a few things, but that's what happens when you don't pick him up for a while.
True, you can't walk away when stunned. But that's the same as being hit by 's Q and W after she charms you, it's their combo, it's how they do their most reliable damage.
45 mana is not a ridiculously low mana coast. For the sake of comparison, let's look at 's mana pool and costs.

According to the wiki:

Fiora Mana: 300-900 Mana regen: 8.0-19.0

Q: 20/25/30/35/40 mana.
Cooldown: 16/14/12/10/8 BUT if she hits an enemy champion (or just an enemy since the wiki doesn't seem clear here) then the cooldown is reduced by 60%.

W: 50 mana Cooldown: 24/22//20/18/16

E: 40/45/50/55/60 mana Cooldown: 13/11/9/7/5

R: 100 mana Cooldown: 110/90/70

This is not taking into account her CDR from her Q passive or from items like item 3071 .

Pantheon Mana: 317-844 (starts with a little more, but ends with less) Mana regen: 7.4-18.9 (has less regen than Fiora at all stages of the game)

Q: 45 Mana CD: 4

W: 55 mana CD: 13/12/11/10/9

E: 45/50/55/60/65 mana CD: 10/9/8/7/6

Makes his Q and basic attacks crit on targets at 15% of their max health. And I'll admit I was wrong on the champion damage. It just does 60% of the damage to non-champions.

Pantheon does not have low mana costs for his abilities. Does he have reliable poke? Yes, he does and I agree that it should be changed. It's honestly why I think he needs a rework, he's uninteractive in lane and offers little to nothing late game unless he is stupid fed. But him getting stupid fed is detrimental as he is starving his team.

You have it backwards, countered because his passive blocked her vitals. Her nerfs were also to deal with her tank build not giving an acceptable trade off in damage from her damage build, and this was rightly so when you consider that the weakness of champions like her is to CC them and burst them down. If you can't do that then they become nearly unstoppable and it isn't healthy for the game.
That stun isn't impossible to stop, it has more counters than you'd think. Any knock back, knock up, or form of displacement CC can interrupt his stun mid dash. Examples include: head butt, ground spikes, root, slam, roll, backflip, knock up, ult, ult, Q and ult, stun, stun, knock up, etc.
I hated fighting when I played and consider him to be a hard counter.

Does Pantheon have problems? Yes. He's incredibly oppressive in his lane but very useless and not very fun outside of it (say what you will, stunning one person and then being blown up by the enemy while my team kills my target isn't fun. Being a kamikaze stun bot that is a poor offtank isn't fun. Renekton makes a better tank because he can stun multiple people). Personally I think he needs a rework, something that allows him to be more useful and fun late game. I would gladly have his early game power lessened if it means a better mid to late.

But if Riot decides to keep him as a supreme early game champion, I'd recommend they make him manaless like Riven . Mana is suppose to be a burden for the early game, but a strength in late as then you can blast your combos multiple times in quicker succession. Pantheon 's reward for late game is being a stun bot, so the removal of mana restrictions doesn't do much (you say he can split push, but I don't see him as a great split pusher. He doesn't build attack speed and has no auto attack resets, so there is no way for him to quicken his damage against enemy towers. Since most Pantheon end up building tanky to survive long enough to reach their target, they don't build enough damage items to destroy towers at a fast enough rate to be considered a good split pusher. At least in my experience).

RalanrMar 25, 20161 votes

Yes, gut his lane and thus make him more useless late game. That'll fix him.

RossendaleMar 25, 20161 votes

When will people realize that Pantheon has a retarded good laning phase because that's literally all he brings to the table? Late-game he's about as useful as a cannon minion.

Shuyin178Mar 25, 20162 votes

All Pantheon needs to do late game is stun someone and then they die by the rest of the team. Not to mention he can still split-push then just ult into the fights if he is needed.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.

GameplayJul 18, 2015764 comments

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.

GameplaySep 1, 2015156 comments

GameplayApr 1, 2016606 comments

GameplayDec 21, 2014456 comments

3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.

GameplaySep 17, 2015114 comments

When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?

GameplayNov 30, 2014634 comments

More by Shuyin178

Rune Descriptions Should Remember The Toggle You Set

GameplayNov 15, 201722 comments

Lack of Kha'Zix In Next Rotation With Rengar

GameplaySep 4, 201712 comments

I Would Like To Call Bullshit On Blue Essence Gained Per Level-Up Being "Faster Than The Old System"

GameplayNov 20, 201781 comments

Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv need the Hydra treatment

GameplayOct 22, 201786 comments

Gutting Ardent Is The Healthiest Thing Done In Awhile

GameplayOct 19, 2017117 comments

Now We Wait For The Galio Hotfix

GameplayOct 25, 2017118 comments