Liandry's PBE Math Nerf/Buff

SirPurrr·Sep 23, 2018·10 votes·8,113 views

> Liandry's Torment > AP lowered from 80 to 75 > Unique Passive: Torment > max health as bonus damage increased from 1% to 1.5% > burn damage changed from [doubled] to [2.5%]

This was listed as a buff when discussed but I don't think it's so clear cut. On champions with low CD abilities and good AP ratios, it might even be a nerf when not vs hypertanks. Why not make it a straight buff by keeping the AP the same and raising the bonus damage only by .25%?

21 Comments

Daddy AntsSep 23, 20185 votes

Yay a buff that will make support brand even more oppressive.

Can't wait to see Brand and Zyra every game.

AirKingNeoSep 23, 20181 votes

and they still won't nerf the Sorcs+Morello combo.

Frosted TipsSep 23, 20186 votes

Dont have to worry about Zyra she is so bugged practically unplayable.

Heckin SupportSep 23, 20181 votes

I honestly get physically mad whenever I see a mage "support." I absolutely hated playing bot lane when supports like Vel, Brand, and Lux were super popular. Too oppressive, deal too much damage, and they carry the lane 75% of the time.

SirPurrrSep 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Heckin Support,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AdZ3E44f,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2018-09-23T20:04:32.578+0000)

I honestly get physically mad whenever I see a mage "support." I absolutely hated playing bot lane when supports like Vel, Brand, and Lux were super popular. Too oppressive, deal too much damage, and they carry the lane 75% of the time.

try getting an early vamp scepter and take Bloodline

DuskDaUmbreonSep 23, 20184 votes

5 AP is 2-4 damage per ability, so let's call it 12 damage in an all-in.

2-4 damage isn't enough to make it a nerf with the extra .5% max health burn.

SirPurrrSep 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

5 AP is 2-4 damage per ability, so let's call it 12 damage in an all-in.

2-4 damage isn't enough to make it a nerf with the extra .5% max health burn.

What about Ekko for instance? He has over 100% scaling on W and R (yes, some for defense). I know he doesn't go Liandry's in most situations but would it really be a better item there? Especially combined with Rabadon's every bit of AP counts.

Poop JohnsonSep 23, 201812 votes

Dang it's almost like Liandry's is made for champions that have DOT or low cooldown CC spells and not for assassins, perhaps that's why they moved the magic pen to Morello and gave it a passive that would benefit those types of champions?

astralwitSep 23, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brumbo Tungus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AdZ3E44f,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-23T18:11:51.533+0000)

Dang it's almost like Liandry's is made for champions that have DOT or low cooldown CC spells and not for assassins, perhaps that's why they moved the magic pen to Morello and gave it a passive that would benefit those types of champions?

sure, but you're also meant to adapt builds to what's needed

that can mean tank shred or beefiness etc.

this is a buff at least in the scenario where you're facing a massive tank comp... maybe they're trying to discourage certain metas for worlds since tanks aren't that common in SQ anymore

My Waifu VanillaSep 23, 20182 votes

Except no matter what the situation is your job as an assassin isn't to deal with tanks. Even against a team of 3 tanks as an assassin your job is to kill the carry. Your damage against tanks is going to be so negligible that it is a waste of time even trying. Your ADC and top/jungler will do a better job than you since they inherently do better versus tanks. Even the likes of Zed/Talon would only get a BC in this situation if no one else was going to get it just so someone ELSE does the tank busting with the teamwide armor shred.

Even if you go Liandry's+Void Staff on the likes of Ekko you are still going to do way less damage than your ADC against a tank. The "damage loss" of hitting them compared to a priority target is so high that you are actually hurting your team's chance of winning by not going for the carry which you CAN full combo unless it is someone like Kaisa with self peel/giant shield.

IfnethSep 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AdZ3E44f,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-23T22:28:27.830+0000)

Except no matter what the situation is your job as an assassin isn't to deal with tanks. Even against a team of 3 tanks as an assassin your job is to kill the carry. Your damage against tanks is going to be so negligible that it is a waste of time even trying. Your ADC and top/jungler will do a better job than you since they inherently do better versus tanks. Even the likes of Zed/Talon would only get a BC in this situation if no one else was going to get it just so someone ELSE does the tank busting with the teamwide armor shred.

Even if you go Liandry's+Void Staff on the likes of Ekko you are still going to do way less damage than your ADC against a tank. The "damage loss" of hitting them compared to a priority target is so high that you are actually hurting your team's chance of winning by not going for the carry which you CAN full combo unless it is someone like Kaisa with self peel/giant shield.

Nitpick: Black Cleaver is a must on any AD Caster regardless of team or situation. It’s just too good overall.

For a double Lethality user, 20% CDR takes you from 20% to 40%.

The Phage passives are very good for sticking without a gap closer.

Scaling armor Shred enhances your combo and all-in while also giving a little team utility.

400 Health is a lot for one item.

My Waifu VanillaSep 24, 20181 votes

Except it isnt. I get more damage from a BF Sword which costs half as much. We live in a world where you're better off maximizing damage so you dont NEED CDR. If someone like Zed NEEDS the phage passive to run someone down with autos then he isnt doing his job right.

Another thing is someone like Zed blows as putting BC stacks on tanks. He can stack it on a squishy fine, but it takes way too much commitment to stack a tank since you're throwing abilities at them instead of you know....at the ADC that is now free shooting you and going to kill you in 5 autos. Talon is slightly different since he is much more AoE focused and can send stray armor shreds around with his W and R, but the item still isnt good. It hasn't been good since they gutted the AD you get.

IfnethSep 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AdZ3E44f,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T13:45:33.162+0000)

Except it isnt. I get more damage from a BF Sword which costs half as much. We live in a world where you're better off maximizing damage so you dont NEED CDR. If someone like Zed NEEDS the phage passive to run someone down with autos then he isnt doing his job right.

Remember, it’s not just any one effect but all of them combined that makes Black Cleaver so good. It’s gold and slot efficient. Now, on to your points.

BF Sword does not give more damage than Black Cleaver. BF gives 40 AD while Black Cleaver gives 55. It does give 15 more AD than Phage—but costs more and grants no health or passives.

Also, even when damage is high, Health on a melee champion is crucial. It lets you shrug off poke and survive all-ins. Guardian Angel gives you Armor, but its pricey passive procs only once every 240 seconds.

Another thing is someone like Zed blows as putting BC stacks on tanks. He can stack it on a squishy fine, but it takes way too much commitment to stack a tank since you're throwing abilities at them instead of you know....at the ADC that is now free shooting you and going to kill you in 5 autos. Talon is slightly different since he is much more AoE focused and can send stray armor shreds around with his W and R, but the item still isnt good. It hasn't been good since they gutted the AD you get.

The Cleaver stacks on AOE are just nice to have. The real advantage of the shred is that landing each of your abilities and attacks increases the penetration of the next one. Even a 10% Shred from landing two abilities and a basic attack is no joke, especially when your ultimate gets to use it.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 23, 20183 votes

Ekko has no reason to go Liandry's, though.

Besides, do you really think 10 extra damage (before mitigation) is going to outweigh .5% more max health damage? It'll give better damage against any target with 1k or more health (assuming you hit them with two damaging abilities), which nearly every single champion in the game has by the time most champions would even think of buying Liandry's.

SirPurrrSep 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ekko has no reason to go Liandry's, though.

Besides, do you really think 10 extra damage (before mitigation) is going to outweigh .5% more max health damage? It'll give better damage against any target with 1k or more health (assuming you hit them with two damaging abilities), which nearly every single champion in the game has by the time most champions would even think of buying Liandry's.

His Q has a slow and it can hit multiple people so it's not the worst. The extra shielding and healing from the AP may be worth more than .05% max HP which btw is only 5 damage. Considering he's going to sometimes get multiple rotations and has an AP ratio on W when they're low, I don't think even the damage is always higher. After all, you can't stack Liandry's. It's the same burn no matter how many spells you use and some champions like CDR so they'd use spells multiple times on low CDs before the burn effect ends.