Riot really needs to learn to avoid these reworks with all the power in one skill

SpecterVonBaren··65 votes·2,944 views

Take the first Cassiopeia rework, what was it that people hated about playing it? That she was nothing but an E bot with her other spells just being there to enable her spamming her E. Malzahar's rework shoved all his power into his voidlings, his E was essentially like Cass's Q. Kog'Maw's rework put all of his power into his W. Now we have Sejuani's rework where so much of her power is in her E and passive, both of which are also uninteresting for the person playing Sejuani. We also have Maokai with so much of his power now being shoveled into his E. You'll also notice that a lot of times the ability that has the most power is also the easiest ability to use or the most uninteresting one, which makes the change even further unhealthy for a good champion.

Riot needs to stop making champions so one note. This isn't to say that they should go the opposite way and make them super generalists with a bunch of things in their kit, but each ability should feel important and be powerful, even if it only does one thing. Take the reworked Warwick, he has his power much more evenly distributed around his kit and it has resulted in him not being a balance problem (At least not so far anyway).

Having one ability with all the power makes it so it's easier to find a way to abuse it and have an unhealthy playstyle and less skill expression. A champion with power more evenly distributed around their kit takes more skill and has less chance of being abusive since the player needs to use everything right to do well.

Overall, I think Riot needs to take a step back and look at how some of their reworks are turning out and avoid these kinds in the future.

48 Comments

Derfel8 votes

Riot doesn't know how to do anything. Things happen and Riot comes up with an excuse for why it happened afterwards.

IcyPepper2 votes

Makes me wonder how this game came to be then. Like, did the founder find a disc one day and go, "Holy shit, there's a game on this?"

Derfel1 votes

they made a dota clone that was so shit it had to be f2p, turns out, that's way better than charging 20 dollars

IcyPepper1 votes

Doesn't seem so shit anymore tho

Doozku8 votes

Just because a lot of power is in one ability, doesn't mean that the design is bad. Gangplank is a perfect example. Most of his power is in barrels but he is still high skill cap with some counter play and skill expression.

Of course the difference between gp and say, Malzahar, is that it is actually engaging to use barrels as opposed to voidlings.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Myself, and even Riot themselves, don't like how so much of his power is in his barrels either.

Auz the Ripper9 votes

Gangplank has his power very evenly distributed across his kit; most of his damage does come from the barrels but his other skills are still extremely important. If they were deleted or disabled, he would have to be played very differently, built differently, and would be picked for different reasons. Malzahar? Not so much, You could delete his Q and his playstyle would barely change at all.

Doozku2 votes

If you delete Gangplank 's W, he still plays the same. His W isn't that powerful compared to the rest of his kit. Its definitely a strong spell, but its not going to define him.

With Malz rework, his Q is the truly weak spell on his kit. He needs his E to use his W, and his R is basically one of the only reasons why you pick him anymore.

LankPants1 votes

If you deleted Irelia's E she'd still play basically the same, that doesn't make it a weak spell.

Requiemsfire1 votes

Well, yes she's play similar, but her kit would be drastically weaker. Think of it this way most if not all melee champions have an ability they can use to stick to the enemy. LeeSin slow XinZhao slow/ knock up Darius pull/slow Yorick Cage/slow Irelia slow/stun JarvanIV ult/knockup/slow Khazix slow Nautilus snare/slow/stun/knockup MasterYi gotta go fast Rakan Charm Illaoi Slow

There are a few exceptions Garen Mordekaiser Pantheon Shyvana but generally without the traits to stick to an enemy, a melee champion will simply be kited and killed after their initiation unless they spec into certain items.

LankPants1 votes

Well, yes. GP would also be drastically weaker if you removed his W too, that's kind of the point.

It's a powerful ability, it just doesn't play into her playstyle that strongly, exactly like GP's W.

GayFluffyUnicorn11 votes

His W isn't powerful? If they would delete his W in GPs current form he would be played as tank/bruiser only. I'd say it would be hard to even lane with him without his W.

Ahristocats1 votes

then sejuani's most of power isn't in her E

her Q and W and ult are still important

Blåbæret5 votes

I've been saying it for ages: one-button champs are unhealthy for the game.

Thresh Blitzcrank Morgana Malphite Soraka KogMaw Malzahar

These are all champions that more often than not win by spamming one button for the duration of the match. It's extremely unhealthy and is cancer to play against. There is no outplay when it comes to these champs.

SpecterVonBaren10 votes

Eh... Kog'Maw isn't since the revert, Thresh certainly isn't, and Mogana has a lot of power in her E as well as her Q. Malphite actually has a lot of power in either his E or Q depending on which he maxes and against what opponent.

Blitz, Raka, and Malz though are pretty spot on.

Voluug136 votes

Malz cant ''one button win'' neither pre-rework or post rework.

That he is being used for his R CC alone because everything has been nerfed into unviability is a different thing.

Serika Zero7 votes

you get a downvote from me.

ex-mid morgana main here. Her Q insanely important, can root up to 3 seconds. Her W insanely important, its your wave clear and farming tool, you max this first on mid lane. IF you don't, you get no farm. Her E is super important. It allows you to walk up to the enemy laner (or enemy team) and use ult on them. And her R is very strong, heals her for a lot due to passive and is a very strong counter engage tool.

And as an pre rework malzahar player. Q important to land, doing a lot of damage and silencing the enemy, so that they can't use their skills for 2 seconds. W not as important, unless you try to kill a tank. Then its your main spell that does damage to tanks. Also, it used to become a zone control tool after you got rylays. E insanely important. Its was your main farming tool, it actually did damage pre rework, it restored a lot more mana than today's E does, so, it was important to make it bounce around minions. It was also important to direct your passive. R ofc, you probably know why his R is important and feels strong. Its used to be a mutual suppress where the enemy takes damage. Forcing the enemy into getting a qss or start the fight with less hp than you. And his passive, another very important part of his kit. Used to push waves hard in lane and during 1v1s where you ult and are suppressed. Your passive is the one doing the extra damage needed to kill the target.

Contrary to the very popular lie. You hard to use your entire rotation: QWER (passive voildling spawned) to kill someone. Sure, it wasn't the "hardest mechanical thing in the world". But not all champions need to have #insane amount of mechanics in their kit.

And those are my mains.

Then I got no fucking clue why you put thresh out there. He is like the lee sin of supports. His fucking q is a stun + gap closer + displacement. Used to engage into fights or escape them over the walls via jungle camps. His W is a shield and a saving tool. Can be used for engaging together with his Q to help and ally close over 2000 range distance. You can also use it to save an ally with no mobility from a really bad spot. His E giving him extra poke in lane (ok, this part might not be interesting), and then it can knock the enemies back or front (now this is interesting because it can be used as a tool to get enemies stay in the fight or to push them away), it can also be used to cancel dashes due to it being instant. Oh and, lets not forget it also slows. His R is a bit lack luster, giving just a massive slow zone control and a bit of damage. Oh and his passive gives him tanky stats just because he exists.

Even if morgana misses her Q. She still has her E and R to make plays. Pre rework malzahar. Even if he doesn't have R, he can still team fight as a zone control mage (unless the enemy is master yi, then you really need that ult) and your QEW would slow along side with the damage that they have once you finished rylays. And managing your passive was a very big deal.

If anything, a pre rework malzahar without his ult was still more dangerous than an oriana without her ult. But for some reason, her being an R bot is fine.

And thresh.......fuck, this shit, can do almost everything .... he only lacks a fucking heal. Oh, hi, redemption.

Blåbæret1 votes

And u get a downvote from me.

Serika Zero6 votes

just because you can't stand proper reasoning and can't make an argument?

Blåbæret1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AdPsJYEi,comment-id=0002000200000000,timestamp=2017-05-13T10:15:14.722+0000)

just because you can't stand proper reasoning and can't make an argument?

Not here to read essays, bud.

Anidan3 votes

What? I'm pretty sure a lot of the people on Gameplay Boards could write a longer post than Serika did just on the seemingly banal topic of creep equilibrium in a lane. If you're not prepared to read when you go to Gameplay, I'd probably advise on avoiding Gameplay since the discussions that take place outside of the circlejerk areas, where 1-2 sentences of "FUCK THIS GUY" or "BUFF THIS GUY" are acceptable, tend to be lengthier.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Absolutely agree, I've never been much of a Malz player but from what I remember he was a better champ overall.

TotalJerk2 votes

Like 2 of those champions actually qualify as "one button"

Cavemantero4 votes

Its ghostcrawlers form of balance. Let the overloaded kits win and pigeonhole all the other champs to one effective ability and then say its about creating 'windows of opportunity..."

Saianna3 votes

that what happens when you are important figure in Riot HQ but overall don't give a shit about game other than income it makes.

That's the whole reason why so many reworks are out of Kardashians ass.

AL0002 votes

Probably better idea is retired old champion to introduce the new champion so nobody complains.

sheldonbunny30 votes

{quoted}

Probably better idea is retired old champion to introduce the new champion so nobody complains.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

nice table15 votes

i know right? imagine how great the game would be with 130 different versions of azir / yasuo

AL0002 votes

Be gentle on the riot staffs... they are still learning how to create cool "top-end" champion.

Merchie J2 votes

upvoted for code geass

Blade of Justic4 votes

{quoted}

Probably better idea is retired old champion to introduce the new champion so nobody complains.

Don't know what's with the downvotes.

This is what they did to Sion and Riot got a standing ovation for it.

AL0003 votes

True, I missed to play old AP Sion, AP WW and OP ugly Poppy.

Those champion are completely different type of rework... I still not able to figure why riot called it as rework.

Janna mìd2 votes

I got you I miss full ap old galio and old xerath

Baron of Bread3 votes

Most people don't think of it as losing Sion because they never played him. People still don't want to see their champions removed from the game so they would downvote.

Warsame2 votes

Have you even played new Sej?

Her skills are all impactful, there's just a bunch of lies about her from people who dont play her. There is a lot of power in her E sure, but that doesn't take away from a amazing ult, passive and a fairly good W too.

The funniest thing is that while complaining that she is a 1 button champion, people want her reverted back to being the actual 1 button champion she was.

JRobin311 votes

I don't know what the lies are are, but I haven't played her since rework precisely because that rework was so uncool.

Nilok1 votes

This is the lesson Riot needs to relearn.

TwitchInMyPants1 votes

Honestly I'll say I like the direction of Mao's rework, but the execution was a sloppy mess. Maokai has been fun in the past when his E has been strong. lately its been more of a secondary poke skill for top and useless in the jung. The bush mechanic is a really good idea, but IDK about moving the % dmg. And gutting his Q and passive was really dumb since it made him super dependant on his E/W. Even if Mao's E is his most nuanced ability, it should be important for him to want to use W early to go in and pressure with Q for an easier E so he's actually using his kit in tandem instead of pretending to be a mage.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I'll say I like the direction of Mao's rework, but the execution was a sloppy mess. Maokai has been fun in the past when his E has been strong. lately its been more of a secondary poke skill for top and useless in the jung. The bush mechanic is a really good idea, but IDK about moving the % dmg. And gutting his Q and passive was really dumb since it made him super dependant on his E/W. Even if Mao's E is his most nuanced ability, it should be important for him to want to use W early to go in and pressure with Q for an easier E so he's actually using his kit in tandem instead of pretending to be a mage.

His Q wasn't completely gutted, it got a buff in terms of CC. Now it has a stun after the knock back, previously it was just the knock back (think old Ali pulverize)

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

Sejuani's W is really good. My first few games I maxed W and it hits hard and Q can still hit multiple champs, it's just harder. Her ult is noticeably weaker but the rest of the kit I like.

Cavemantero1 votes

{quoted}

Sejuani's W is really good. My first few games I maxed W and it hits hard and Q can still hit multiple champs, it's just harder. Her ult is noticeably weaker but the rest of the kit I like.

She is freaking unkillable now though. Has a lot of control in team fights which I like...just needs something done to that bonus armor/mr. The W is definately better but she does like no damage now with the nerf to sunfire. I don't know why they nerfed basically the most balanced item in the game...so dumb.

JRobin311 votes

I agree. I mean I think RIOT often is overly concerned about champions having unique identities.

Think about it this way: what champions are the most fun to play? Lucian Caitlyn LeeSin Thresh Xayah Ezreal Ahri etc ... champions that are either flexible or OP. Not everything on the most popular list is OP, but everything on the most popular list is fun to play.

And which champions are not as fun to play? Urgot Corki Skarner RekSai Mordekaiser Heimerdinger Azir etc ... champions that are either awkward to play or too weak to play. Not everything on the least popular list is underpowered, but everything on the least popular list is just a little bit less fun to play.

But these unpopular champions have such unique identities! Yeah, i know... in fact their identities are so unique that they become unplayable by the majority of the player base for the simple reason that RIOT has serious problems making them both fun and viable for them.

I'm sure RIOT would love it if a champion like Singed was just as popular as a champion like Master Yi, but the reality is that RIOT just doesn't design the rest of the game to accommodate the differences in those play styles.

The way RIOT handles itemization is a big part of the problem here. The way RIOT handles itemization I can't even imagine how they could ever possibly ever accommodate the diversity of champions. It just doesn't seem possible because RIOT designs items around "classes" and champions around "unique identity".

Every auto attack should feel unique but Marksmen shouldn't build items outside their class. Hue, hue, hue.

zlumpy1 votes

Part of the itemization problem is also in how they limited themselves. By femoving auras and saying no more auras ever they took away a huge grouping of potential items.

Taking out too many mana regen items was another big one. It killed a bunch of alternate play styles.

Then you get to the summoners spells where only a handful see use and the others that could have allowed more variety aren't as strong or just flat out removed from the game.

The we have probably their dumbest design choice of trying to force certain champs into certain lanes or roles. If people can make a support good somewhere else why nerf them back into support? If a squishy mage was able to jungle and help why take away his tools that allowed that to happen? If a bruiser was actually working mid lane why destroy his itemization or skills that allowed that to work?

The Deckowner1 votes

You know what's even more funny? They reworked Sej because she was a R bot, now she's a E bot.

warpenguin5551 votes

^ It's not fun to play a champion who has all their power in 1 ability

WinTheWarOnPants1 votes

"but, muh champion uniqueness tho..." -rito

Crowe Stalker1 votes

Yea, let's just make champions with obnoxiously overloaded kits instead Galio

(( Sorry, just played against him as Sion top and very, very salty... ))

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