Can we talk about how bad the Skarner rework is?

SpecterVonBaren··38 votes·6,310 views

http://www.leagueoflegendsskins.com/images/champions/splash/Skarner_0.jpg

Before his rework, I fancied myself a regular player of Skarner, I loved being a sticky, dangerous bug of fear that caught people out of position and dragged them away to their doom, I also felt very sure of myself playing him and did very well most of the time. Ever since his rework though, I played him a few times and have now completely dropped him from my roster of played champs because he’s no longer good at what I played him for and the kit he has now is incredibly boring.

Riot stated with the Juggernaut rework that they “wanted Skarner to have something truly unique to him” when he’s unable to use his ultimate to kidnap someone. Their solution was to give him the six crystals that are placed on the map when he’s on a team, they said that “with these changes, Skarner becomes a neutral objective control king, and super useful for teams looking to overcome their enemies with buff and map control.

This is not what happened. While Skarner received a huge boost in popularity and was seen as being OP, no one picked him or thought he was OP because of his ability to control objectives, it was because he was a tanky unkillable monster that you couldn’t keep from barreling through your team and killing everyone in sight.

I’ve said before in many threads but the Skarner rework goes against an oft quoted design philosophy of Riot which is that they do not like ball of stats champions and regret the ones that are in the game that came about from earlier years. Skarner is currently nothing but a ball of stats champion who’s passive is to give him more stats when fighting in specific areas. And this was even something that is the exact opposite of what they were trying to achieve. They said that they felt Skarner, as he was before the rework, was just a generic bruiser that never had a real reason to pick him over someone else but that’s what he’s been turned into, ever since his nerfs I barely ever see Skarner picked at all in ranked or normals because, since his stats no longer make him OP there’s no reason to pick him.

Further, the goal of the rework, to make him a neutral objective controller is impossible to do without completely changing his kit, because his kit is not designed for controlling objectives, nothing in his kit rewards him for, or encourages him to fight for objectives aside from getting a stat boost from his crystals. His Q is a short range spammable damage ability, the kind of thing someone who gets up in an enemy’s face would use to give out long term dps, his w is a speed boost for catching people that also has a shield to help him survive being in the middle of an enemy team or taking the damage from someone trying to kite him, his E is meant to allow him or a teammate to close the gap and pounce on someone and his ult is a kidnapping tool. None of these abilities are things that a neutral objective controller would want in their kit.

Know who DOES have a kit for objective control? Nunu. Nunu has two abilities for controlling things in the jungle, he has his consume for dealing large true damage to monsters to secure them for himself or his team and he has his ult which is great in the jungle and river because of the confined aspect of those places and that fact that he can catch people by surprise with his ult by hiding behind a corner or in a bush to channel for a lot of damage before the enemy realizes it or when they have no choice but to fight in it.

But do you know what Skarner’s kit IS good for? What he is SUPPOSED to do? Being a champion that catches someone and then sticks to them and doesn’t let up until they’re destroyed by himself or his team. His previous kit was perfect for this kind of gameplay, with the crystal venom passive, w to move in quick, E to slow someone down, and then Q Q Q to stun them and finish them off or Ult and drag them away into your team.

Further, that kit was satisfying. It was satisfying and felt rewarding to get that third hit in just before the person got to their turret so that they got stunned long enough for you and your ally to finish them off. There was a direct goal for you to focus on someone in a fight so that you could stun them either to peel for a teammate or to single out a priority target.

Does anyone actually feel any kind of satisfaction from taking a crystal and fighting in it? Where is the decision making in fighting over the crystals? No one ever thinks, “Oh no, if we fight here Skarner will be in his crystals, maybe we should try to fight somewhere else.” Because outside of the pro scene, and even in it, fights aren’t something that usually happens because of some kind of war game where you try to take certain objectives over others. Fights happen because of people unexpectedly running into each other, or because you need to either gain or prevent the gaining of a neutral objective. If the enemy team is trying to take Baron, them having Skarner on their team doesn’t factor into whether you fight for it or not, you’ll react to it the same way you would if they didn’t have Skarner on their team.

The crystals also don’t actually change anything about whether you can take the enemy or not. Whether Skarner gets a boost from his passive is determined on which team holds the stronger position in the game when a fight occurs near them. If Skarner is fed then the enemy team will avoid his crystals, if he’s behind then the enemy will take it from him without him being able to fight for it, and if the teams are even then it gives him a slight boost to his stats but it only effects him and so his team and the enemy team will just fight like the crystal wasn’t there regardless of who has control of it because whoever wins the fight is determined by positioning, split second decisions, someone being caught out, or people being grouped up too much for a wombo combo, not because Skarner had his crystal captured.

The entire problem with the crystals is that they offer no strategic use or planning. The mana regen component only matters when Skarner is farming the jungle, the attack speed component only matters if Skarner is a damage threat on the enemy team which is decided by whether or not he’s ahead or not, and the movespeed bonus mostly matters when farming for movement through the jungle and when its used for teamfights it’s usefulness is again decided by how well or poorly Skarner is already doing. And it's not as if you can use it for counterjungling or catching someone by surprised because as soon as you take one everyone on both team knows it because the icon on their minimap changed color.

tl;dr

I feel I’m starting to ramble a bit so I’ll try to sum up and get to the point. Skarner’s rework is terrible. I love Repertoire for what he did on the forums a couple months back but the rework he created and the intention behind it is incredibly half-assed in its attempts to change Skarner’s niche. All it’s done is made Skarner like he was with his first rework where he’s functional, but unsatisfying to use and offers nothing interesting to his team aside from his ult. His ganks are also back to how they were then with whether the gank succeeds or not depending on whether he lands he E or whether his ally laner has enough CC to lock the enemy down for him to smack around. Further, all his current passive did was take away a lot of his base stats to give him more stats when within the area of his crystals and them being a factor for neutral objective control at all is because of where they’re placed, place them in front of turrets or in the middle of a lane and you immediately change what his supposed niche is focused around. It is a terribly artificial way to give someone a niche and it doesn’t even work.

Riot is going to someday come back and rework Skarner yet again, because eventually they’ll realize all these issues with the kit he has now and I can only hope that when they do they turn him back into the sticky inescapable scorpion again but if not then I hope they at least completely change his abilities so he can actually BE a neutral objective controller instead of a generic ball of stats.

http://t1.livememe.com/drd19f_4.jpg

39 Comments

Fowus11 votes

I also dislike his rework, it prevents you from playing Skarner top which is the role I used to play him as before the rework of his

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Yeah I miss being able to see skarner & mordekaiser top :/

Nunya Bezwacks2 votes

those whole 5 people who did it might agree.

Boulderox1 votes

MORD surprisingly is still doable top.... only thing is you have 3 abilities instead of 4.... until jungler ganks. Ad top trinity mord is strong as hell.... and very underrated tbh.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Start E and cheese

Fowus1 votes

But your passive is wasted unless you can control the scuttle crab location

Only Play Darius5 votes

I always knew Skarner rework would be terrible in general. OP as fuck on release, but still a bad rework in general and now that he's balanced (and in fact still on the strong side) no one plays him EVER. Obnoxious when he's in his zones, which just turn him into the ball of stats he was pre-rework x10 and too slow when he has to fight out of his zones. His new stun is great and one of the truly good things that came out of the rework, he has much better AD scalings than before, and the movement speed he gets during his ult does allow him to displace enemies much farther than he used to, but I can't get over how dumb those crystals are. They are too easy to take and it's stupid that so much of his power is restricted to specific zones that he also needs to capture, maybe if they made it so that he could move the crystals with his ult then it would be a truly interesting passive but I digress.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Being able to move his crystals with his ult was actually an idea I came up with when his rework was still on the PBE.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fH2HtHjs-let-skarner-move-his-crystals-with-his-ult

It would add so much more to his passive and it would make it so much more exciting and interesting to play him with making considerations about where to place them, whether to put several in one place or spread them out over the map... UGH, how I hate his passive as it is now.

Baron of Bread2 votes

The problem with being able to move the crystals is that the enemy team would lose their ability to avoid fighting him in the crystal areas and, as you mentioned in your post, he is giant ball of stats in those zones. Those crystals are death zones, and if you can just put them wherever then the counterplay of "stay out of his zone" is gone.

I would be fine with Skarner being able to move his crystals if there was a way for an enemy to move them as well, or at least send them back to where they started by capturing them or something. There needs to be some counterplay to the stat-zone.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

We could add to the passive that Skarner needs to move a crystal away from its current position every once and a while or else they'll lose their power. Or maybe they need to be re-energized every once and a while which would make just running to a lane at any time inefficient.

Celeste Benal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aay04nFk,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-02T04:23:47.171+0000)

...I can't get over how dumb those crystals are. They are too easy to take and it's stupid that so much of his power is restricted to specific zones that he also needs to capture, maybe if they made it so that he could move the crystals with his ult then it would be a truly interesting passive but I digress.

Agreed. Being able to move and/or place the crystals would alleviate many of his problems. You can't be a zone control champ if everyone refuses to fight in your fixed zones.

For example, if you attack an enemy with the goal of capturing their farmland for your own country, why siege the castle where they have such a huge advantage? Force them to come out of the castle. Or starve them out.

LordForrest3 votes

I honestly think they should return Skarner to his state before the original rework, only difference would be keeping his current e it is more useful and i like it better than his original one. Thats when they killed him for me.

The Whamboozler3 votes

I'm with you OP. Skarner was my main jungler a few seasons ago... before his FIRST terrible rework, even. I played him in ranked when he was barely being picked by anyone, and he helped carry me out of bronze. Impressive? No. But I liked him.

I have hated every change they've given him since then. When they neutered an already sub-par champ by taking away his slow on multiple Q procs. We can't have a perma-slow in the game they said. I mean, Ashe has one at a range, Nasus has existed forever and then Ekko came out not long afterwards with more slows and MS boosts than skarner could DREAM of loaded into his kit... but apparently it's unhealthy for a melee ranged bruiser who can only slow you if he can stay close enough to you to melee attack you multiple times. Seems legit. So they trashed him. Then they left him to rot for a long while while his fans languished. They didn't care, of course... since he had so few fans to begin with. (See later: Cassiopeia , who had a much more vocal angry fanbase that was ALSO ignored)

Then comes the juggernauts and suddenly, Skarner is reworked AGAIN. As if to admit that they REALLY dropped the ball without actually admitting anything, they rework him a second time. Now he's a hideously powerful psycho-monster with a ton of free stats, but only when he's near one of his little stones. Did no one at Riot even play Skarner? Do they know at all what he's about? Because he's not the champion they're trying to make him. He was the monster who dragged you to your death with his ult, while giving one of the game's best laughs. The hard part was his miserable range and how easily he was kited. If you LET Skarner get to you... you had messed up. Not cause he was going to kill you, but because you were getting dragged away from safety towards other people who would.

I will say this... the E change wasn't awful. Old Skarner only even bothered with points in his E if he was lane-cheese skarner (Which riot also killed). Jungle Skarner rarely put even a single point into it until he HAD to. Now E was useful to jungle Skarner. Having some pre-6 CC at a range made him actually able to gank pre-6 with some kind of success. But his passive is awful. AWFUL. Free stats if you're standing near a rock. That is terrible! I don't know who decided SKarner was all about objective control, but he's not. He's a ganker. He's about being insanely hard to escape. He's not about taking a little rock and then being OP if the enemy dares to fight there.

Cavemantero3 votes

So they trashed him. Then they left him to rot for a long while while his fans languished.

Ah....smells like Ghostcrawler...

Shac Norris2 votes

I've actually won my lane top with this rework i'm satisfied kthxbie

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

What an incredibly insightful and well thought out post...

Shac Norris1 votes

Want thoughtfull stuff?

They removed ap skarner, nerfed all his scalings by half.

But gave his ult an AD scaling.

They gave him more dmg with his passive, a stun and a shitton of attack speed when you're in your zone.

I beat olaf in a 1v1 at lv 3 in terms of dmg. i'm not asking for more.

Meep Man2 votes

I think Skarner is gonna become Galio.

Is actually pretty dang powerful, but there's some random reason everyone doesn't want to play him.

BlGANlMETlDDlES2 votes

I actually really like the skarner rework, and finally hit lvl 5 mastery with him yesterday :(

Celeste Benal2 votes

I agree with every word. I used to spam Skarner jungle because of exactly what OP says; he was a sticky kidnapper that could sit on your face and kill you until you were dead from it.

The reason this latest Skarner rework was "OP" was because he is completely useless when outside his zones. So he absolutely needed the base stat buffs. But that made him OP inside the zones.

Skarner is now a binary OP or trash champ because of his crystal zones. He will be impossible to balance so long as he has to baby-sit his pet rocks to get his power.

His E only grants him power for a very short time that makes very little difference in a team fight because he not only has to hit everyone with it (its a straight line skill shot so they all have to be together, which is bad tactics), but he then has to run up to them and AA each and every target one at a time after that.

I've tried Skarner a few times since the rework and subsequent nerfs. He is now complete trash and almost totally irrelevant in any game because of the pet rocks being fixed.

Now, if Skarner could place those crystals himself, that would be interesting gameplay. To avoid crystal spam or just dropping one right at the start of a fight, they should have a charge counter and warm up time. Perhaps a smaller AoE as well. Then he could place them where he needs them, rather than just getting kited out of the AoE.

CoBTyrannon1 votes

There are a few things that make me not want to play him. I can't stick to targets. I can't Q while Ult.

But overall i just feel the nerfs came in too early, before people learned how to play against Bruisers.

Xonra2 votes

{quoted}

There are a few things that make me not want to play him. I can't stick to targets. I can't Q while Ult.

But overall i just feel the nerfs came in too early, before people learned how to play against Bruisers.

It was a bit awkward. They were VERY fast to nerf Skarner and VERY slow to nerf everyone else. It didn't make much sense.

Igotlazy1 votes

I honestly enjoy the rework. There's a very obvious and satisfying powerspike when you're inside the zones. Fighting opponents in them is rewarding, and capturing them before a Dragon/Baron fight can can actually deter people. Skarner in my eyes is a champion who excels when he chooses his fights correctly and I think this rework really struck that point home.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Do you think you could explain to me what it is about the current Skarner that makes you enjoy him more than his previous iteration?

Igotlazy1 votes

{quoted}

Do you think you could explain to me what it is about the current Skarner that makes you enjoy him more than his previous iteration?

I feel like a key factor is that he feels "different" than other champions. His previous iterations shared a lot of design space with other Bruiser-Tanks like Volibear and Udyr. He feels like his own thing now which I appreciate. I really do like the Zones and the power boost they give. Gives me a real sense of satisfaction when I lure someone into them and shred through their health like butter. Before the change he was extremely team dependent. His damage was below average and Ulting without a follow up from allies was usually fruitless unless you needed to finish someone off. Now you are actually a threat.

Maybe it's just who I am, but I like champions whose "special powers" aren't given instantly. I like champions like Ekko and Kha'Zix because I have to something specific to access their crazy stuff. Skarner falls into that category.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

See, for me, I feel the opposite, his previous form he had plenty of damage to kill someone on his own and was less dependent on his team following up on his ult. Everything you currently need to be in the zones to do now he could do before anywhere.

Messaiga1 votes

I think I can say gladly I enjoy Skarner more now than I did before the Juggernaut rework. Originally I was opposed (due to losing movement speed and the sticking power of Q) but I actually still have a lot of fun while playing him. It was a bit discouraging to see him so strong on release in 5.16 (partially my fault, was one of those "informed" PBE players) but now I feel he's in a good position balance-wise.

As for gameplay, I really enjoy everything aside from the way shrines work (but I'll go into that and why I think they exist anyway). His Q does more damage and is casted more frequently, W shields more, E is way more impactful (due to the stun attached to it). His R even gets a nice buff (due to the passive on his E).

I do agree that his Crystal Spires are very boring. Bonus Attack Speed, Movement Speed, Mana Regeneration. That's ok I guess. They could have really played up what the Crystals do to Skarner when he is in them. Maybe his abilities could have gained bonus effects while inside of his spires rather than just gain raw stats. However, I find there is a reason they simply give raw stats. Current Skarner is a good bit weaker in the early game than 4.11-5.15 Skarner. This is because his Q and W actually have no base value (only % values). To make up for this, the Spires give Skarner raw stats early so he can clear the jungle reasonably (though unfortunately it pigeon-holes him into jungling).

I'd suggest changes for him (to make his spires more interesting) but I know it is 99% not likely that he will receive any kit changes for a long time after he has gotten 3 reworks in the past 2 seasons. I still have fun as him, though.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

While I still disagree, I do think you bring some good points about why you like the current Skarner. I am glad to know that even though you like how he is currently, that you still agree that his passive is pretty bad, at least in terms of being interesting or engaging.

Dunkrius2g1 votes

7/50 No actual item 3070 on skarner.

Sicksadpanda1 votes

I'm a Skarner main (although I do admit that I got bored of playing him, but he's still my most played champ) and this is my personal opinion.

I love predator bugs in general, especially scorpions, and I was extremely excited the moment Riot announced Skarner as an upcoming champion. I've played many games and saved IP for Skarner, but I didn't buy him right away when he came out. The reason was simple, his kit seemed boring compared to other champions and he was considered extremely weak (he couldn't even jungle efficiently!).

I decided to buy him as soon as his first buffs came out (heavily reduced mana costs on his Q) and I fell in love with him. It was mostly because he was a scorpion. His Q was fun, his E was crap, but the best of all was his ult...being able to ult someone who just attempted to flash away from you was probably the most glorious feeling. And it bummed me out when Riot declared it being a bug and made Skarner no longer able to use his ult on a person who flashed or any other gap closers.

Now as for his rework (I'll skip his first rework since it's similar to the current), I feel like his crystals is a good step in creating Skarner's niche, but it's still not effective enough for Skarner. He absolutely needs the crystal for early jungling, and he is completely dependent on the crystals for dragon/baron fights. But is 6 crystals truly enough? Skarner is already weak without the crystals and he can never rely on them during lane ganks. He can't even counter jungle safely as he'd need a crystal to jungle...which would reveal his position and put him into even greater danger.

My personal opinion, I feel like the crystals needs to be changed the most. Because without crystals, he's just a damage-less tank with mediocre CC (using popular skarner build that is). But on active crystals, he's more formidable, but most enemies are smart enough to turn off the crystals and make sure no one gets near the crystal.

The best change I can think of right now is to make much more crystals than just 6 (have them be in lane too). Instead of the crystals being an AoE, it'll be global for Skarner. The more activated crystals for Skarner, the more powerful he is, and the less crystals there are, the weaker he will be. I think it'd be interesting as teams would fight for the crystals just to make their jungler stronger (and it can even apply to top laner too!)

Hope the idea is interesting for other fellow Skarner favorites.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

That' actually a pretty good idea for a solution actually. Having it so Skarner's power is improved based on a cumulative effect of his crystals being running, though this does present an even greater feast or famine nature to his kit where if the enemy is doing really well then Skarner loses more and more power due to lack of ability to fight for his crystals.

Cavemantero1 votes

honestly, the crystals is a dumb concept imo...jungle zone control just balances him it seems. I used to be scared of him now its like....oh...its just skarner.

Count Zubat1 votes

I see that Morde mains aren't the only ones regretting Juggernaut update. At least Skarner maintained some of his former identity...

Nunya Bezwacks1 votes

you made a novel length post just complaining about one of the strongest reworks in the juggernaut patch?

Ludovico2 votes

Not everyone is happy, just because something is getting "stronger".

Totally not a Skarner main myself, but I understand the feeling of not being happy duo to reworks:

  • loss of identity of the champ
  • completely different gameplay (especially hard for mains. Remember when you should NOT proc Gragas W before engaging?)
  • balance issues. Yes he was insanely strong, but got nerfed (deserved). It´s still debateable, if Skarner is fulfilling Riots expectations, they had for the rework.

So yes, he made a long post about a champ he liked. Totally understandable (even if the lenght is... long).

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Morde turned out even stronger than Skarner and yet you still people complaining about how he's turned out even now.

LouisLeGros3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nunya Bezwacks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aay04nFk,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-11-02T11:09:53.549+0000)

you made a novel length post just complaining about one of the strongest reworks in the juggernaut patch?

"One of the strongest reworks in the juggernaut patch" is a matter of stats. Once things get balanced and numbers are tuned you get stuck with the new gameplay patterns that people are actually complaining about. The first Skarner rework could have had a 3.0 ad ratio on Q and I'd still have hated it because they took away his slow and his identity. He kind of got it back with the stun passive and I liked that iteration regardless of the numbers. Now they've changed his gameplay pattern massively again and I don't give a shit about the numbers, I don't enjoy playing it.

cbroadkill1 votes

Poor Poor Skarner. He was one of my junglers since S2. I miss the ole permaslow but I accepted the chance for "game health" but this Juggernaut change was so awful for him. Skarner is a snowball harder jungler right now, if you are winning or close to equal in strength you can force fights at dragon and hope they come fight you. If they don't you get a free dragon that start becoming an issue later in the game. If you lanes are losing forcing fights on crystal is a last ditch effort. What was great about old Skarner was he was about finding that pick and pulling that person to death not about making people come to you at Dragon and Baron. What needs to happen is revert this objective control or actually make him good at objectives, like nunu level good at Baron and Dragon. If you want to go the objective route which is feel isn't his core with the rest of his skills then give Q or E some sort of Epic monster effect like E slows dragon and barons attack speed by 15 percent per rank. This would mean that you wouldn't be weakened by dragon and baron as much so that forcing that fight means your team is near max strength if you choose to fight them or make Q do 1 percent true damage per hit per rank. Meaning that Skarner actually takes this objectives very fast. I feel this isn't his original core of Skarner; he was the ideal pick jungler not named Lee Sin. I would remove all the crystals and change E and his passive. E now shoots out basically a rank 1 Anivia Wall that travels a set distance then stops. This allows for you to control some of the map to help you get into R range and help isolate a target which is what old Skarner was all about. His passive would basically give him a small amount of CDR to help with build paths and when near your E you basically get a small movespeed and attack speed buff.

theminiom1 votes

I didn't get to play him before his rework, i get the feeling however that i would have enjoyed it more than the current version

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