No. Stop telling me this. Why would I look at games in a tier far above my capacity? Far above the capacity of most players? That's stupid. We don't need to play like pros, Riot needs to stop balancing the game around pros.
preternatural2 votesiunno man there's like 3 notable pros that were bronze when they started this game.
Zero Shingetsu1 votesiunno man there's like 3 notable pros that were bronze when they started this game.
I'm not saying it's impossible to climb from Bronze to Challenger, only that it shouldn't be expected. High school basketball courts don't use NBA regulations. Rec centers don't use NBA rules. Batting cages don't track balls and strikes. If Riot wanted to make a competitive pro game, they should have done so. Releasing a game to the public, you should expect that the vast majority of players are of middling skill and just want to have fun for an afternoon.
Galiö1 votesThat's what normals are for where most people just do nonsense for 30 minutes and picks dont really matter.
Zero Shingetsu1 votesThat's what normals are for where most people just do nonsense for 30 minutes and picks dont really matter.
And that's exactly what I play, all the time. Therefore, people need to stop speaking as though they don't exist.
Galiö1 votesBut why would someone say 'look at X' though?
They are saying you need to learn something or play something else?
I feel there is a gap in what you are writing about in your post to generate a conversation.
If you are talking about balance, it doesnt matter in Normals... nothing is weak or strong there. It's just nonsense.
Zero Shingetsu1 votesBut why would someone say 'look at X' though?
They are saying you need to learn something or play something else?
I feel there is a gap in what you are writing about in your post to generate a conversation.
If you are talking about balance, it doesnt matter in Normals... nothing is weak or strong there. It's just nonsense.
I hear this frequently. When I speak of balance issues. (If you think nothing is strong in normals, you're out of your mind.) When I speak of the accepted meta and how it should change or how it shouldn't. When I speak of items and summoners. Just about any topic, I'm directed to pro play or Top 3% Elo. Makes no sense.
Galiö1 votesNo one takes normals seriously, collectively, enough for there to be strong or weak champions in normals.
It's like someone in your basketball analogy it's like a player trying to shoot 3's against a team throwing the ball against a wall trying to bounce it into the hoop.
Also its makes sense to balance top down, because (in an ideal world) players should improve and learn how to play the game more efficiently so they would over time know how to play champions better (and not just throw balls off the wall and hope it lands in the hoop).
But that's impossible to do around normals because that's full of players who bounce the balls off the hoop, wear clown shoes, play blindfolded, play with their shoelaces tied together, play with a comically large football.
preternatural1 votes[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYGj6Pdb,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-16T18:03:27.890+0000)
I'm not saying it's impossible to climb from Bronze to Challenger, only that it shouldn't be expected. High school basketball courts don't use NBA regulations. Rec centers don't use NBA rules. Batting cages don't track balls and strikes. If Riot wanted to make a competitive pro game, they should have done so. Releasing a game to the public, you should expect that the vast majority of players are of middling skill and just want to have fun for an afternoon.
here's the thing though, you're gonna want teh game to be balanced. for digital games and not field and court games (the sports are games at the end of the day), the balance is the "avatar" the player selects. we had this irl with the robot wars thing, an 8yo all the way through to a pensioner can enter their robot/avatar/player character as long as it's built to x, y and z regulations. the esports does this, you can select any of these avatars for your escapades so long as they meet x, y and z, so for instance the character must be made by rito james, cannot be piloted by a script or with script assistance, and you cannot have a custom model on it cause you might just make it a cylinder of your characters hit box so that you knew exactly where your character was without having to interact with the visual framework presented by the game. otherwise the tools being used are not the same as the pros and the game has no validity. the field and court sports are balanced by physiology, and the rules remain the same top to bottom, yeah there are allowances given to u18's regulations but that's based on physiology too and having to account for varying climates both low and high altitude and various ailments individuals might have. that aside the rules of all those sports are based on what the pro's are doing with the game. if rugby teams in the super cups are abusing the current offside rule, it changes for everybody top to bottom, even in your rec centers and u12 games on mini-fields. if football teams are abusing an offside rule (offside rules are notorious lol), the ruling changes for everyone once again top to bottom.
you might still run shorter games than the pros on smaller fields by necessity of physiology, but your ruleset will be the same irrespective of the scale of field, and field and gamelength scaling based on physiology literally can't be helped we can't expect 8 year olds to cover the same ground as an adult and an adult will not fit into a mini-soccer field. the only exception to this being athletics events i guess because there is a raw physical component being tested there, although allowances are made for shot put because an 8yo is not doing an adult shot put. this cannot apply to a digital game though, there is no physical biology gating children from using the big boys field and the same applies in reverse, there's some purity about it that way so perhaps villeneuve's vision of the future was correct. i cannot put an 8year old in a grand prix car (well actually you can but they require experience first) i can put an 8yo in a video game though, they were the first market afterall, or at least allegedly were.
a basketball rec center, just btw cause you brought it up, they cannot all replicate a shot clock for instance so casual rules will be different to organised rules but those are generally made up on the spot with an underlying philosophy being understood similar to touch rugby or playing football in some random park with no apparatus for goals aside from maybe some handily placed trees or a pair of shoes. but when sunday league pub games are going on, they're run to the same rules the premier division and champions league are run to. by your philosophy that should change and some offside rules shouldn't apply to the sunday leagues. so only the highest level would have access to a balanced game while everyone else is playing...iunno what to call it, league-lite?
Zero Shingetsu1 votesWhile I agree with the concept behind this, and I think you're right about the theory of competitive game balance, it doesn't end up that way when you eliminate choice. League is different than other competitive games (well, at least until League took off and a bunch of mimic popped up) in that it focused around prebuilt champions. You have no control over how your champion handles, only how you play the champion. With so many champions, actual balance - providing an even playing field for player skill to decide matches - is impossible. But you can still try.
This is why I don't play League professionally. There's no point in dedicating that much time to something that doesn't truly provide a level playing field. The games I play professionally give everyone the same slate, and it's up to your decisions on equipment and abilities to determine what mechanical edges you get. If one of these becomes too broken, simple: fix that thing. It doesn't require upending an entire champion, so it's not that difficult to do. League will never truly be balanced, and thus I don't really know if it can be considered a truly valid competitive game.
That said, my games tend to have caste-driven balance changes, looking at casual and pro play separately when balancing everything. League doesn't. In essence, we're forced to play on the same terms as the best players in the world. Some of us will adapt. Most of us don't have the capability to. It's like being forced to race with professional cars we can't control well, just because they're what work best for the pros. Some of us just want to race go karts.
cuddlykitten41 votesThe only reason rec centers, high school courts, etc. don't use pro regulations is because it is expected to be used by people without the expected physical capacity to utilize it. A small child can't throw a ball as high as an NBA regulation hoop. Those are very different scenarios. You can't compare a competitive video game to a physical sport as though they are parallels. You compare it to other competitive video games. I'm pretty sure almost none of those have separate balances between pro and social play.
"If Riot wanted to make a competitive pro game, they should have done so" <--- They literally did.
"Releasing a game to the public, you should expect that the vast majority of players are of middling skill and just want to have fun for an afternoon." <--- they do expect that. That's why normals exist. You kind of just sound like you want them to make the game you want. If you want that though, you're gonna have to learn to develop your own games. That's the reality of the situation.
Zero Shingetsu1 votesThe only reason rec centers, high school courts, etc. don't use pro regulations is because it is expected to be used by people without the expected physical capacity to utilize it. A small child can't throw a ball as high as an NBA regulation hoop. Those are very different scenarios. You can't compare a competitive video game to a physical sport as though they are parallels. You compare it to other competitive video games. I'm pretty sure almost none of those have separate balances between pro and social play.
High schoolers aren't "small children", though. Dunking is one thing, but a high school kid should be able to shoot the ball into a full-size NBA hoop. Muggsy Bogues was 5'3" tall. Likewise, you can't possibly expect the vast majority of players to have the reflexes necessary to compete with pro balance.
Let's put it this way: Hop in a $40,000 sedan and drive a course at the highest possible speed. Now try to do it with a $1.5 million hypercar. See which one is easier to keep on the road. Ah, but they're all just cars, so shouldn't a professional driver and an amateur driver both be able to have fun driving them? Yet the capabilities of the hypercar can't be fully unlocked by an amateur driver, so they won't be having half as much fun as a pro driver would.
At the very least, I'm glad you recognize that an esport and a real sport aren't equal things. Most don't even go that far. On the topic of games played as sports, however, there are several games in Japan and Korea that practice "kaikyuuseido chousei", as it's informally known in Japanese gaming. They have the main build, for general consumption, and then a separate build for competition that is continually tweaked based on the demands of the top tier players. I am perfectly comfortably adjusting to both for games I truly enjoy, and wouldn't be opposed to League doing the same even if I did decide to aim for LCS.
As I understand, Dota 2 has a soft form of this wherein changes are introduced to the pro circuit more slowly than they are for the general public, to maintain a stable competitive environment. But this falls a little short of what I'm advocating for. The full-on kaichou method is far more preferable in my opinion.
"If Riot wanted to make a competitive pro game, they should have done so" <--- They literally did.
I thought this was implied, but I suppose I'll have to spell it out: They should have done so, and left the casual game out of it entirely.
"Releasing a game to the public, you should expect that the vast majority of players are of middling skill and just want to have fun for an afternoon." <--- they do expect that. That's why normals exist. You kind of just sound like you want them to make the game you want. If you want that though, you're gonna have to learn to develop your own games. That's the reality of the situation.
You're putting up omote and calling it an argument. Making this about me when it's about the game. League was the game I wanted. Then esports came along and the balance got insanely out of tune over several years. I am not the only one who feels this way. I am not saying the balance should be tuned because of me. If that were the case, I would simply stop playing - which I more or less have, save for a few forays every couple months - and that would be the end of it.
I am saying this because enough people are getting upset about it that it threatens to be a problem to Riot's bottom line. I am reminding everyone who insists that only top tier balance matters that the vast majority of players are not and will never be top tier talents. We are playing a video game. We were just here to have a good time for a little while. We cannot have a good time when the game is tuned for people who dedicate their lives to it.
Zed genius2 votesiunno man there's like 3 notable pros that were bronze when they started this game.
I don't think anyone started from challenger
cuddlykitten43 votesChuck Norris did
Jamaree2 votes[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYGj6Pdb,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-09-16T18:00:32.641+0000)
No. Stop telling me this. Why would I look at games in a tier far above my capacity? Far above the capacity of most players? That's stupid. We don't need to play like pros, Riot needs to stop balancing the game around pros.
Because we should strive to improve to that level rather then the game being dumbed down for players who aren't willing to improve or get better.
Mortismo2 votesWhy would I look at games in a tier far above my capacity?
So you want riot to balance the game around people who play with their monitor turned off?
Zero Shingetsu1 votesSo you want riot to balance the game around people who play with their monitor turned off?
I get what this is and I won't be coerced into it. I suppose I could instead play your game and say that you play with your keyboard unplugged... Yes. Yes, let's go that route. You play without a keyboard. I said it, so it's true.
Mortismo1 votestighten your helmet and you might not feed every game, bronzie
Zero Shingetsu1 votestighten your helmet and you might not feed every game, bronzie
What ever will I do with this gaping wound in my soul?
Mortismo1 votesmaybe you should learn how to play league before crying for different balance perspectives
if yi was balanced for your elo, he'd be the biggest troll pick in the game which actually he isnt far off right now.
Zero Shingetsu1 votesmaybe you should learn how to play league before crying for different balance perspectives
if yi was balanced for your elo, he'd be the biggest troll pick in the game which actually he isnt far off right now.
Points for effort but it seems my sarcasm was lost on you, so let me spell it out and save you some time: Insulting me isn't going to hurt my feelings, and without an argument more substantial than "u r suk cuz u r bronzz", you're not going to change my mind. I'm not even bronze to begin with, I'm unranked at Middle Silver - Low Gold elo. I know it's all the same to a Diamond Adonis, but if you must waste your time with feckless insults, you may as well get the specifics right.
Mortismo1 votesthats still pretty bad
Zero Shingetsu1 votesthats still pretty bad
I'm trying to think of the English word here... Dense...? Wait, doesn't that describe mass? Ignorant? But that just means you're ignoring me... Hmmmm... Desperate, maybe. I guess that one will have to do.
Saezio1 votesThe thing is, there is no reason to balance around low skill players, because the variants in those games are so huge.
And low elo players can still enjoy the game even if some champions are easier to play and thus more effective in low elo.
Meanwhile, in pro play, every little intricacy of a champion is exploited to the players benefit, hence, it is important to have champions have a more homogenous level of power in those games or you risk the game becoming stale as fuck.
For example if Kalista,Azir, Galio, Yuumi, Akali, Irelia were balanced around being as strong as Yi,Tryndamere,Darius,Garen when the player handling them is Gold, It would mean the champions would be bonkers for any elo above, let alone pro play.
And, as to why you should watch Pro games. First off, there is no need to watch them. But a reason to watch them would be to improve, or if you find that entertaining. Same reason you would watch a basketball or football game.
Zero Shingetsu1 votesAnd low elo players can still enjoy the game even if some champions are easier to play and thus more effective in low elo.
I'm afraid I'll need to ask for a citation on that one.
Saezio1 votesIt's common sense. First off, casual players don't have anything on the line as they play. And from then on it is really maths. Let's say a champion has a strength ceiling of 100 while another has a ceiling of 110. The casual player's performance varies very much between games I think we can agree on that, some games we make 50 mistakes some games we make 80 mistakes some games we make 200 mistakes. (a mistake can be simply warding 20 seconds too early so the ward has expired when the enemy jungler will typically have finished their camp and is ganking you, or simply missing a CS, or using a TP when you should have walked to lane, or shoving when you should have slow pushed, or not crashing a wave, or missing a skill shot, or not dodging a skillshot, not tanking an extra tower shot when you could have so it results in your teammate dying etc)
So the casual player might play the champion from 60% perfection to 80% perfection or even 30% perfect all within 3 games so the 10 points of strength ceiling difference between the champions don't matter NEARLY as much as HOW YOU PERFORMED ON THE CHAMPION IN THAT SPECIFIC GAME.
Now, when we get to challenger players or pro players, their variance is really lower, so their margin of error might be playing the champion 95% perfect to 99% perfect THUS the 10 points of strength ceiling difference mean THE WORLD. Because it would mean that no matter if the player was 100% perfect in their game, the game was decided by the champion pick, there was no room to improve and win that game, it was out of their hands entirely.
P.S. I know my English is not that good, but I think you get the point.
Zero Shingetsu1 votesIt's common sense. First off, casual players don't have anything on the line as they play. And from then on it is really maths. Let's say a champion has a strength ceiling of 100 while another has a ceiling of 110. The casual player's performance varies very much between games I think we can agree on that, some games we make 50 mistakes some games we make 80 mistakes some games we make 200 mistakes. (a mistake can be simply warding 20 seconds too early so the ward has expired when the enemy jungler will typically have finished their camp and is ganking you, or simply missing a CS, or using a TP when you should have walked to lane, or shoving when you should have slow pushed, or not crashing a wave, or missing a skill shot, or not dodging a skillshot, not tanking an extra tower shot when you could have so it results in your teammate dying etc)
So the casual player might play the champion from 60% perfection to 80% perfection or even 30% perfect all within 3 games so the 10 points of strength ceiling difference between the champions don't matter NEARLY as much as HOW YOU PERFORMED ON THE CHAMPION IN THAT SPECIFIC GAME.
Now, when we get to challenger players or pro players, their variance is really lower, so their margin of error might be playing the champion 95% perfect to 99% perfect THUS the 10 points of strength ceiling difference mean THE WORLD. Because it would mean that no matter if the player was 100% perfect in their game, the game was decided by the champion pick, there was no room to improve and win that game, it was out of their hands entirely.
P.S. I know my English is not that good, but I think you get the point.
While your argument isn't unreasonable, I rather think the more important math relates to players. When roughly 80% of your player base fills what most refer to as "low elo", if you don't ensure that level of play is more fun than not, you're taking a huge risk with your profit margins.
Saezio1 votesI just disagree that CHAMPION BALANCE is what makes the game unfun for the majority of the players. I think it's mostly the state of the meta. I think that stuff like Runes, Turret plating, CS bounties, even items that are making the game the way it is for non-top tier players and not the champion strength relative to the rest of the roster.
I personally believe what's wrong with the game is that every game feels the same, there is no room for counterbuilding or changing one's approach to the game due to how volatile it is and how far superior the best choices are compared to trying to play according to each individual match's needs.
It is just my personal view on the matter obviously. And maybe creating a 50% winrate for every champion in Plat 4 could make this game a paradise and bring tons of players in, I just don't think so.
cuddlykitten41 votesLol. I promise that has never ever hurt Riot's profit XD I think you just have difficulty viewing beyond your own horizon. If you aren't having fun, play something else. If you have to win to have fun at all, maybe competitive stuff isn't for you.
ShyImagoghnar1 votesriot tries to balance around both pro and casual play and it almost never works
look at galio's patch history for the most egregious example of flip-flop pro-casual balancing lol
Zero Shingetsu1 votesriot tries to balance around both pro and casual play and it almost never works
look at galio's patch history for the most egregious example of flip-flop pro-casual balancing lol
Yeah, and that's an issue. I don't know why they don't just balance the pro build separately. Dedicate one team to general casual play, and another to tournament play. Lots of games played professionally do that.
Mortismo1 votesbecause different elos have different power picks and metas and deciding when that cap hits is impossible
cuddlykitten41 votesThat would create it's own issues. If pros (yes, they play the game too so they have to be included in consideration) have separate balances when they're playing in a pro capacity or a social capacity it would get hard for them to remember the differences in which is which on specific levels. Then there's the issue of collegiate teams. Do they follow the pro rules or the social rules? These people aren't pros, but they are playing in tournaments where there are gains to winning and losing. They also are people who would be looking at pro games and such for ways to improve their team. Then there's the issue of coding the whole situation which I don't think you realize how difficult it would be for them to code it two different ways like you're suggesting. Also, since patches balance off the last patch this would ultimately lead to having the pro play and social play become completely different games since they won't be balancing off of relatable patches. EX. social: Irelia gets 20 dmg, (next patch N.P. from this point on), Irelia gets 10 more dmg to compensate needing more, N.P. Irelia has dmg reduced by 15 but an extra passive added to her W to compensate (doesn't matter what it is, we're picking random examples), N.P. the new passive is balanced in some way or another. Pro Play: Irelia gets dmg reduced by 10 due to some bs the pros are abusing, N.P. Irelia gets 5 dmg back, N.P. Irelia loses the 5 dmg again and is compensated by having more tanky stats added as an incentive to branch her out in pro plays. See the issue with that? In one the Irelia winds up as a mega burst with a passive on an ability where in pro play she becomes tankier without that passive. It would continue to go from there. Don't give me anythign about them just adding the passive in pro play. They will (in my scenario) decide that the passive they added would break her in pro play so it is never added. They are separate balances so they have to treat it in that way. Also, this would take twice the number of people to do and twice the time, which from a business end is not efficient. Riot is a business.