Interesting Riot perspective on buff/nerf champions and thought process

woodvsmurph··3 votes·2,110 views

Too many points to remember them all and they got off-track so much, but it was still fun to hear all the info they gather and think about.

So rather than reply to all or most of the points, I'm just going to throw a few things out there.

  1. Seems disgustingly over-dismissive of "low elo" players. Given, the average lower elo player really doesn't know enough to provide good commentary; however, that doesn't mean EVERYONE has nothing to offer.
  2. Both LL Stylish and Blaustoise mention a problem with akali is her ability to sit in shroud, take no damage from tower, and zone you for a very long time. I've said this for about half a year as akali's main problem. TF had the duration he could hold gold card locked in nerfed for that and he could zone you for far less time. So... that's a "low elo" player independently identifying the problem... before Riot or high elo mention it. Second part of this point: their solution to this is WRONG despite identifying the problem correctly. Their solution? Longer cd on shroud. That's literally ignoring the problem. So akali has to wait another 2-5 sec to again zone you off an entire minion wave under your own tower? No friends. The solution is two parts. First... increase the re-stealth timer. As in, opponents have a reasonable chance of returning damage against akali when she attacks them from shroud. I don't care about tower damage being dealt to her... just let me auto or throw an ability at her when she attacks me. And then lower the duration of her shroud... not the cd between shrouds. The duration. Just like with tf, you need to reduce the zoning potential of akali by reducing the duration for which she can zone you off xp and cs.

You do both of those and she would have far more FAIR counterplay. And who knows... if you still think she doesn't do enough damage without being fed, then that would leave you an actual opening to buff her should she need it. And it would be done in a healthier manner which rewards GOOD gameplay while letting opponents punish BAD gameplay - i.e. "counterplay".

Anyways, I've made several balance suggestions - from complete overhauls of league and the methodology to approach a complete rebalancing of champions, items and runes properly to more specific smaller scale fixes. I might not be high elo, but I have a lot to my resume besides the above where I called out the problem with akali before Riot and high elo.

The correct hotfix for tank ekko when he was meta - half a season before Riot fixed him properly.

A cho'gath rune setup that was new and original which saw play by SKT's toplaner within 2 weeks of my theory crafting it and for the exact reasons I created the rune setup.

Correctly predicting when camille and re-reworked galio would be broken and WHY they would be just based off their stats and without ever having had to play as/with/against them.

Bringing several champions to new roles such as morg support (8 months before the pro's and for the same reasoning they did), nautilus support (around the time morg sup first peaked as THE best support and c9 was new... I was a few months ahead of the curve on the next innovation), determining lissandra support didn't work due to too low of range on her abilities and too much potential to mess with minion waves when casting abilities (same thing LemonNation investigated shortly thereafter and concluded same thing as me since we never saw it in his pro matches with c9), and nautilus top to name a few.

My point here isn't that I'm amazing or that everything I suggest should be implemented. But the point is that Riot needs to stop immediately dismissing lower elo players' suggestions and comments as mostly irrelevant as far as actual balance... because some of us (not just me) actually have a real damn clue about what is going on and how to improve - sometimes even with better suggestions than what they come up with or... the same solution they come up with only we come up with it faster.

6 Comments

SwiftKitten883 votes

i agree, im not saying that many low elos player are great..

but thats just flat out... seesh whats term... profiling.

just because a low elo have a higher chance to not know what they are talking about doesn't means NONE of them know what they are talking about.

if we flip this on the high elo side.. sure we get some people like froggen and box box, who seem very unbiased in thier balance ideas

yet people like tyler1

regardless of the fact that he have god like mechanics can be seen here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSWjj5dRe0A&lc=z234eb0ihvexuzfuoacdp430aj00c4ldd1yn3g1m0ltw03c010c.1541694313395946

complaining that "crit itemization" sucks

when even a bronze 3 player could have told you that your not going to take down a armor hp attacking sion building like that and that for that fight you need a item 3153 .

and seeing as he is a champion that LITERALLY counter your exact build path.. if if you could kill him with those items it would prove that crit itemization in fact still OP.

players like "hashinshin" are so blatantly biased toward top they ignore the the balance of their champs vs the balance of the rest of the map.

being "high elo" only demonstrates that u have insanely good mechanics,the will to abuse w/e is broken to climb, and the free time to spam ranked games.

and while u are certainly more likely to do much better if u have greater game knowledge, from what i hear from high elo people saying they get stupid morons teammates in plat and diamond... i really don't think you can consider their game knowledge "better"

the average high elo player certainly likely know more than the average low elo people. and no one is going to question that.

but a high elo people frequently spout shit about things that know nothing about. and i have seen many people down in low elo that have game knowledge that would make those high elo player look like trash, even though their mechanics might not be soo good.

and if you still don't believe me..

EVERY SINGLE PRO TEAM ( to my knowledge) has a COACH now this couch is a player that HAS THE GAME KNOWLEDGE, but NOT the mechanics.

just because statically more often high elo player know more about the game does not mean "that all high elo players know more about the game than low elo players"

or that there arn't low elo players that know much more about the game than high elo players.. it just means that the statistical average is that high elo players GENERALLY know more

woodvsmurph1 votes

Sadly I can only give 1 upvote to this.[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Fire Blaustoise1 votes

and that for that fight you need a item 3153

Clearly this is not what he needed there. His issue wasnt his build, but the game space. He encounter a Sion before he completed his core build, with item 3031 item 3072 he would be able to fight him. But ennemy stomped and closed the game fast. Tanks items are cheaper than crit items (without taking in account how busted Sion is).

being "high elo" only demonstrates that u have insanely good mechanics,the will to abuse w/e is broken to climb, and the free time to spam ranked games.

Hell no. they're enough exemple of players stucks in lower elo despite spending enough time playing this game and decent champ. I have some friends unable to even reach gold despite playing strong champ like Akali Anivia Jax. Mechanics is enough to reach gold but at some point you need game understanding if you want to reach high diams and so on. You just don't understand whats high rankers do better than you.

EVERY SINGLE PRO TEAM ( to my knowledge) has a COACH now this couch is a player that HAS THE GAME KNOWLEDGE, but NOT the mechanics.

most of these coach have decent ranking when they play (Kkoma was diamond most of his time, now he's plat, LS is diamond, cv max the coach of GRF was a pro and high elo...).

unless rare case if you can't reach plat, mechanics isnt your main issue.

it just means that the statistical average is that high elo players GENERALLY know more

Its his point. 9 times on ten, the low elo wont know sh*t about the game.

If someone want to get better at this game he'll ask someone with a better ranking than him. Would you ask to another gold how to get out of Gold ???

woodvsmurph1 votes

Mechanics alone may carry you to gold yes. Guess what else can basically solo carry you to gold? Game knowledge: micro, macro, champion, runes, itemization, etc. Knowing stuff, having the experience to react decisively, being able to call other people's bluffs, and being able to bluff yourself when you can't actually pull something off but you convince the enemy that you can.

Of course you have friends who can't reach gold playing broken champions. But it's not just mechanics. Mechanics is a big part of that, but after a certain elo basically everyone has respectable mechanics and this is where mechanically complex champions begin to really shine if the player has a game knowledge. Stuff like riven. You don't see her succeed nor as many people complain about jax in very low elo because people just don't have the skill to play him halfways properly. However, the other half to this is game knowledge. Knowledge of how to build your champion to maximize damage potential while minimizing the ability to take fatal damage from opponents. Maximizing options such as splitpushing, teamfighting, skirmishing, objective taking. If you don't know how, you'll often screw yourself over or simply get minimum value out of this. Just look at the Glacier (diamond elo garen main) doing a video on the "new" (at the time) essence reaver jax build. Despite playing in lower elo so he could look good, he failed to realize (or just to execute) on the whole intended purpose of the item in his build. And therefore he won off mechanics alone rather than through game knowledge. If someone didn't have as much skill advantage as he did and such a good team, they wouldn't have won. But the reverse can also be true. It is far rarer to be sure... but still happens where you can win off game knowledge and shotcalling rather than micro mechanical skill.

It's the team where a player calls to do baron while the other team which is winning heavily is 5-manning dragon and neglected to ward baron because they expect the enemy to hide at tower or rush to contest dragon. It's the team that exploits an overly-cocky fed bot lane and gets them to repeat tower dive and give multiple shutdowns to their team while the fed bot lane neglects to farm and falls behind in cs while also losing their kill gold advantage due to greed and pride.

If 9/10 gold elo players don't know crap... then that means a full 10% of gold elo players DO know what they are saying.

And honestly from browsing most diamond and plat streamers on twitch, most of them are quite frankly... horrible. Even plenty of higher elo streamers and YouTubers I simply cannot watch due to their poor game knowledge. They go in on obviously horrible plays (I'm seeing from their perspective - not no-fog-of-war) and int. They complain about being ganked 3x... dude I win my lane more than 50% of time while being 2v1'd for about 15 min straight early game and still have to carry feeding teammates to victory in most of my matches. Being ganked 3x early - including flashed on by jg at level 2 plus ignited? That's just a walk in the park. But they act like the game is an almost guaranteed loss. I watch people dance around for 20 min doing the same baron bait strategy both sides know is being done and therefore the side that is losing and stalling for eventual splitpush superiority doesn't need to play as respectfully to baron bait because the other team can't tank it and turn to fight afterwards due to how squishy they are and their only tank being the guy with temporary splitpush advantage. And so the side that could have done 3... 4 other things to abuse their lead instead regularly pisses it away until they auto-lose to splitpush or have to force a desperate engage when they're now behind in teamfight power and have lost the momentum. Seen this in the LCS promo matches before and called that crap 100%. They can do x, y, or z; however they don't want to blow flash or risk 1 person dying to set up game-winning teamfight, so they'll waste time for 20 min while the other team baits THEM along on a string because they KNOW this team won't do anything other than the same song and dance. And when that 20 min ends... the team that was behind will have built a lead due to scaling and team comps and hold all the cards. And while casters and fans continued for 20 min to wait for the decisive baron bait fight that would let the (at the time) winning team finish the game, I was waiting for the inevitable upset I saw coming and asking myself how the team's shotcaller and the casters could be so blind to what was going to happen. Bad game knowledge and shotcalling can exist at every elo.

If I'd had skill to match my game knowledge and shotcalling? A different team would have promo'd to lcs. If I'd had the skill? Xmithie wouldn't have played jg ezreal in a crucial match 2 or so years ago and he might have made the quarter finals of worlds. If I'd been coach of Liquid this past season? First off, I would have tried to find an adc more compatible with the core of Pob, Xmithie, and Olleh. But secondly - assuming we still picked Doublelift - when liquid struggled in the summer what they needed to do was to bench DL. What? That's crazy - he carried them to summer championship. Yes. He did... and because they worried so much about winning NA summer and went with that strategy alone, they crippled their potential to grow and empower the rest of their team to step up and so they entered worlds with the same 1-dimensional strategy which was proven time and again to fail - with clg and honestly somewhat with tsm DL. I foresaw all this as being highly probably in SPRING split when they signed DL. I said if they didn't force Pob to play like his solo queue self on-stage and EMPOWER him to do so through repeated trials, failure, and still putting faith in him (they didn't; one or two fail = go back to DL solo carry even if DL failed just as much if not more than Pob) then Liquid would do exactly what they ended up doing in summer. But how would my strategy work any differently? Well, there is no GUARANTEE. But... we need look no further than Fnatic and their summer split benching Rekkles for part of the time to see what my strat COULD potentially have accomplished. And when you look at what that did for Fnatic, you just go wow. Yeah... wow. That's exactly what we MIGHT have said about Liquid had they valued lasting improvement and preparing their whole TEAM for worlds rather than fretting over NA summer championship crown. Then again... only C9 seems to really understand this much as I hate to admit it.

Fire Blaustoise1 votes

Seems disgustingly over-dismissive of "low elo" players. Given, the average lower elo player really doesn't know enough to provide good commentary; however, that doesn't mean EVERYONE has nothing to offer.

This point dosnt matter. Ofc you will have exception... like everything. They're some coach low elo (plat-gold). Honestly, seeing this boards and most threads upvoted, seems like LLstylish is right. You're offended cause you belong to low elo.

So... that's a "low elo" player independently identifying the problem... before Riot or high elo mention it.

Its not cause "you" (not you ) dont understand the game that everything u say is false.

Bringing several champions to new roles such as morg support (8 months before the pro's and for the same reasoning they did)

they're a thing called meta in this game. Pro use what's best at x period. Thats why fiddlestick was trash for so long, but then became OP as support, then nerfed again.

My point here isn't that I'm amazing or that everything I suggest should be implemented.

Seems like its your point.

But the point is that Riot needs to stop immediately dismissing lower elo players' suggestions and comments as mostly irrelevant as far as actual balance...

Actualy its the reverse, the need to start taking high elo reviews in account. They stopped balancing their game since lower elo complained about x changes every two patches.

because some of us (not just me) actually have a real damn clue about what is going on and how to improve - s

And guess what ? most of you dont understand the game (dont take personnaly). On this board most of you only use stats and the shitty 50% wr like a proof of x champs is in good spots. Ryze & Galio are op since age but this boards look at their wr and think they're weak (dont know for Galio on this patch tho). Riot balance team seems to think like low elo player.

in the end when someone talk, you just have to look at the arguments and see if the one know what's he talk about. As low elo you should give up your pride and focus on learning.

chipndip11 votes

Riot Blaustoise is a Yasuo main.

Akali is designed to counter Yasuo in the same way Yasuo is designed to play into mages.

Of course he isn't a fan of Akali. How many mid laners are a fan of Yasuo?

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