Can we address Black Cleaver?

Melledoneus·Feb 12, 2017·2 votes·1,088 views

Let's face it, it gives decent offensive stats, a decent chunk of health, gives you a whopping CDR and shreds armor by 30% when stacked, which isn't that hard to do even without the CDR and Movement Speed it gives.

There is no real drawback to this item. You can shred tanks, punt squishies, chase, kite, etc. All you have to do is add lifesteal and it's the perfect item for any damage dealing AD top laner.

It honestly doesn't feel like you need to work hard to get stacks on Black Cleaver, especially since it reduces armor for all your teammates and grants a free lane against an armor-stacking tank even if they're ahead.

Black Cleaver can do without the armor shred passive, seeing as how it's the Trinity force of "fuck you tanks." We don't need this already must-buy item to become even stupidly stronger when vanguards get their update.

24 Comments

XxxLumberJackxxXFeb 12, 20173 votes

its being changed next patch. NO more Caulfield instead the HP/cdr item

MelledoneusFeb 12, 20171 votes

I'm not sure if it would stop Riven and Vi from building it, though...

RlP K0BEFeb 12, 20172 votes

Whats the problem with them building it? It's a bruiser/fighter item. It makes less sense when ADCs MissFortune Lucian are building it.

MelledoneusFeb 13, 20172 votes

I'm fine with Riven building it if she needs to kill a tank, but when she builds it EVERY SINGLE GAME then there's no stratrgic value to giving it an armor shred.

LordGeovanniFeb 13, 20171 votes

they are changeing the wrong part of what needs to be changed though.

Professor WardFeb 12, 20171 votes

imo lowering this item into the 40ad range would be perfect, i agree it is way too general. Basically the sightstone of toplane right now.

ßurstFeb 12, 20171 votes

So every lane practically has a staple item. Mid lane has morello which w/o its passive its about 15% more gold efficient than the black cleaver, bot lane has IE or yoummus sadly, but i expect that to change next patch somewhat, mid lane has morello, and junglers have jungle items, top lane has either sunfire cape or black cleaver.

Big LincolnFeb 12, 20171 votes

Black Cleaver can do without the armor shred passive, seeing as how it's the Trinity force of "fuck you tanks."

?? so remove its ability to fight tanks completely? it should be more limited, but the removal of any tank-fighting power would make juggernauts obsolete vs tanks in lane

There is no real drawback to this item.

it's supposed to be a core item for juggernauts, and most of them don't actually have a means of fighting tanks well with their base kits except for Darius and Trundle.

MelledoneusFeb 12, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AVf8RfWm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-02-12T16:10:38.631+0000)

?? so remove its ability to fight tanks completely? it should be more limited, but the removal of any tank-fighting power would make juggernauts obsolete vs tanks in lane Every juggernaut has a way to destroy tanks. Additionally they out-stat them until late game. it's supposed to be a core item for juggernauts, and most of them don't actually have a means of fighting tanks well with their base kits except for Darius and Trundle.

Garen has an armor shred and a silence, as well as a true damage amplification steroid on his ultimate that destroys anybody who gets a kill, inclluding tanks. Nasus has an AoE armor shred. Mordekaiser has constant poke and huge damage on his Q3. Yorick's Q and minions absolutely destroy tanks. Illaoi's base damages alone can 100-0 any tank she pleases. Mundo has a spammable %HP magic damage skillshot and an empowered auto based on his HP, which is huge. Renekton has armor shred on his E. Volibear's damage is hybrid, hard to build against, and outright stupidly high even at early levels. Shyvana has a %HP auto enhancer and a magic damage burn around her. Olaf's constant battering, high base damage Q's, and true damage E make him a nightmare for every tank.

Every single juggernaut shits on anything that dares to call itself a tank.

Big LincolnFeb 12, 20171 votes

Garen has long CDs and does no damage in minion waves. Nasus's shred is flat so armor stacking still counters him; he won't kill a full build tank, but they usually won't kill him either. Mordekaiser is entirely magic damage and doesn't often build Void Staff. Illaoi's base damage is mediocre; it's her scaling and dealing double damage with soul pulls that lets her kill tanks early-mid. Renekton isn't a juggernaut, Mundo is trash, Volibear is entirely physical save for E and R, which have long cooldowns, Shyvana I'll give you, Olaf I'll give you but I hardly consider him a juggernaut at this point

MelledoneusFeb 13, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AVf8RfWm,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-12T17:09:24.601+0000)

Garen has long CDs and does no damage in minion waves.

Garen's E would make him stronger than Darius if the minion mechanic wasn't there.

Nasus's shred is flat so armor stacking still counters him; he won't kill a full build tank, but they usually won't kill him either.

Nasus's Q also destroys tanks with its high uptime and potentially high burst. Nasus also has in-built sustain so any tank fighting him 1v1 would be f*cked.

Mordekaiser is entirely magic damage and doesn't often build Void Staff. Illaoi's base damage is mediocre; it's her scaling and dealing double damage with soul pulls that lets her kill tanks early-mid.

Mordekaiser also has the %HP damage on his ult and that dragon mechanic of his does him serious favors, being tankier than most tanks and dealing more damage as well. Illaoi's tentacles deal huge amounts of damage, she can half-health most champions with a W-Q.

Renekton isn't a juggernaut, Mundo is trash, Volibear is entirely physical save for E and R, which have long cooldowns, Shyvana I'll give you, Olaf I'll give you but I hardly consider him a juggernaut at this point

Renekton is a juggernaut (check the subclass list), Mundo being trash is not relevant to my point since he shifts with the meta, Volibear's physical damage adds up, and Olaf still counts as a juggernaut even with that BS ult of his.

Big LincolnFeb 13, 20171 votes

Renekton is a juggernaut

can you link it to me? I don't believe that; he's way too mobile to count as one.

MelledoneusFeb 13, 20171 votes

So apparently I was looking at the wrong subclass list (yay) so here it is:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Renekton is a diver apparently. I stand corrected.

Big LincolnFeb 13, 20171 votes

wouldn't mind if he became one tbh

i love me some juggernauts, hope we get a new one soon

JbelsFeb 12, 20171 votes

Removing the armor shred passive would make it worthless entirely. If they remove that passive, it better be giving 500 health and 60 AD again

MelledoneusFeb 12, 20171 votes

I'm fine with that.

JbelsFeb 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm fine with that.

At the same time, I feel like armor nerfs would still be in order. Cleaver gives many AD champions a way to deal enough significant damage to tanks to actually be a threat to them. As a Sion main, I would much rather have some actual interaction against the Darius I'm laning against than just watch him run from me every time I get close because I have Sunfire Cape and all he has is a Phage and Kindlegem

MelledoneusFeb 12, 20171 votes

Darius doesn't need armor shred to kill you because he already has armor ignore on his E, and his ultimate is a true damage weapon of mass destruction.

He already has super high damages and natural armor ignore, why does he need a 30% armor shred?

JbelsFeb 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Darius doesn't need armor shred to kill you because he already has armor ignore on his E, and his ultimate is a true damage weapon of mass destruction.

He already has super high damages and natural armor ignore, why does he need a 30% armor shred?

Fair point. I also notice that Garen recently had an armor pen mechanic added to his E. Maybe all juggernauts will just naturally have it in the future. I just worry about champions who have called it a core item for years now, like Wukong

MelledoneusFeb 13, 20171 votes

Wukong does not need it, either, with that Q of his.

JbelsFeb 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Wukong does not need it, either, with that Q of his.

That's very debatable. He doesn't max it first, which means he misses out on alot of the potential armor pen it actually gives until he gets it to rank 5. Add to that the fact that he doesn't build as much tank as Darius or Garen do. He dies much faster, so being able to burst people down AND do decent damage to tanks isn't too strange to ask of when it comes to Wukong. That being said, it's definitely bullshit how Cleaver interacts with Lethality

EndlessSorcererFeb 12, 20171 votes

Changes are already on the PBE.

MelledoneusFeb 12, 20171 votes

It might not be enough, unfortunately.

LordGeovanniFeb 13, 20171 votes

Black cleaver is from a time where it was the only effective armor penetration item. they need to cut 10% armor penetration and give the item 100 more hp.