thread asking about your stance on creating a new role

Knight SoIaire ··3 votes·636 views

we face a problem of "Meele"(sorry for not noting that before, ranged champions have theri ways of living) immobile champions being useless (not entirely but they are usualy gited to death), and this is a problem that patches cant fix because of the way champions interact

so the main problem lies in the fact that ballance beetwen mobile/ranged and meele immobile guys cant be solved by numbers because of the way they interact (or the fact that immobile ones cant interact with mobile or ranged ones)

In a recent thread about the ballance of immobile champions one guy made me think about an idea that actualy makes sence making immobile champions have a feature and a role that would encourage enemies interacthing with them on terms that even the odds more and pushing them into more of a commanding role where they are an important asset both to take down and to defend without being all about offense or defense

im mainly thinking about aoe buffs or debuffs being put into their kits that wouldnt affect the said champions but would force enemies to fight them on diferent terms but its not as easy to make something ballanceable and not game breaking on top of actualy fitting into champions theme and existing kit

lets say an aura that reduces ranged champions range by some units or an aura that makes dashing harder the thing is that this power would impact mainly enemies or allies meaningthat it needs some drawback, which would be either a consequence that makes buff harder to exploit (lets say you get increased damage for your allies but they gradualy lose mana) or a consequence once the "commander" dies or said debuff/ buf working on both allies and enemies (a roar that causes all ranged champions close by to lose some range, im not creative today)

**the idea is not refined yet and i realy want your feedback on the way you would aproach the issue of giving immobile champions some key feature or role that would allow them to interact with mobility and kiting in a diferent and more equal way **

also im adding a pool to check if you think that immobile champions should bring something special to the game instead of simple stats to know your opinion and to let rioters know about it (some people say they check their forums)

6 Comments

67chrome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUOzxriu,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-02-10T19:06:13.532+0000)

we face a problem of immobile champions being useless, and this is a problem that patches cant fix because of the way champions interact

I'm not sure I'd say immobile champions are useless, there's plenty of cases where champions with 0 mobility like Syndra and Kog'Maw surface as top-picks at the competitive level - which is fairly impressive when over 50% of the roster at least has something to aid their mobility (like a minor MS boost).

Mobility can be balanced against immobility by pulling levers concerning other mechanics like range, CC, and durability. You'll generally notice highly mobile champions like Ezreal Corki MasterYi Nidalee Katarina have no crowd-control built into their kits at all.

On that note - speed tends to be more of an assassin/solo carry stat than anything else, where it's opposite in CC is more team-fight centric. Mobility will allow 1 champion to chase opponents and 1 champion to escape from opponents, CC will allow an entire team to catch a fleeing opponent or an entire team to escape a particular enemy.

As such - Mobility is probably always going to seem considerably better in yoloqueue than it should, as it's counterpart assumes a certain amount of team-work to reach it's full potential, and speedy champions are pub-stompers incarnate.


That said - pro teams certainly have a lot of mobile champions on them - but they also tend to have a solid amount of range, CC, durability, lanning prowess, clear speed, sustain, reliability, and power. I'm not sure mobility is the issue in that regard so much as above-average champions being above-average overall.

In a recent thread about the ballance of immobile champions one guy made me think about an idea that actualy makes sence making immobile champions have a feature and a role that would encourage enemies interacthing with them on terms that even the odds more and pushing them into more of a commanding role where they are an important asset both to take down and to defend without being all about offense or defense

Mobility already has apples to it's oranges in terms of Riot's balance staff to even it out. Things like CC potency/reliability gives Riot a respectable lever with a gradated curve to deal with mobility, ditto for the variable ranges of attacks and abilities.

im mainly thinking about aoe buffs or debuffs that wouldnt affect the said champions but would force enemies to fight them on diferent terms but its not as easy to make something ballanceable and not game breaking on top of actually fitting

How would these buffs/debuffs be accessed?

If they're champion specific you run into the issue where whatever champion has the buff/debuff becomes 100% pick/ban and game-changing, which would in turn heavily condense and exaggerate the over-arching problem you're bringing up of champion with X capability being stronger than champions without it.

If it's item-specific you at least give the capacity to more champions - but if it's a must-have capability, every champion uses items to differing levels of efficiency. You can easily create a situation where the best ~5 users of the item become the best ~5 champions in the game. This has arguably happened with overtunned items like Warmog's, Black Cleaver, Blade of the Ruined King, and Deathfire Grasp in the past.

Lastly: the cut off for who's mobile and who isn't could cause a significant number of issues. How are you going to classify TwistedFate? And how are champions like Orianna going to compare to Kassadin ? If you just have a black and white yes mobile, not mobile distinction you create a whole new level of problems - significantly weakening champions that were just mobile enough to get hit with the new penalties, while giving a significant boost to champions that barely dodged the penalties. Mobility isn't just a black and white thing, there's a solid gradient of mobility in game. There's also no single stat you can utilize to easily gradate a debuff. Hitting MS craps on MasterYi while doing nothing against Riven, despite their overall rolls being very similar. Even if you're going to assign a unique variable to each champion for a debuff to work properly without causing even more balance issues - mobility on champions varies significantly throughout the coarse of a game.

**the idea is not refined yet and i realy want your feedback on the way you would aproach the issue of giving immobile champions some key feature or role that would allow them to interact with mobility and kiting in a diferent and more equal way **

Immobile champions usually do bring a lot, and CC is usually that. Compare the highly mobile Ezreal and Lucian to the immobile Ashe and Varus . Ashe can safely cause a Malphite-status initiation on the enemy team from sniper range, which has the potential to really obliterate a 4/1 push team that's trying to hold her tank hostage in top lane. You just...need to really think things through with CC.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Mobility can be balanced against immobility by pulling levers concerning other mechanics like range, CC, and durability. You'll generally notice highly mobile champions like have no crowd-control built into their kits at all.

unfortunately not in riots current design gnar mobiole and has good cc azir mobile and has good cc rek sai, mobile and has good cc kalista is insanely mobile and has cc too

that problem is also tied to the fact that riot cant solve this ballance by numbers, so champion wiith cc gets good stats for his cc/dmg and mobility on top of that since riot cant simply substract the power he gets by mobility from his stats (mobility is nothing if you cant deal or take damage)

I'm not sure I'd say immobile champions are useless, there's plenty of cases where champions with 0 mobility like Syndra and Kog'Maw surface as top-picks at the competitive level

those things happen naturaly when riot ballances the game by hammering the most popular picks iimmobile champions get their shot when others get their stats hit just like any other fotm champ

but then riot hammers guys like kog and syndra so they dont see that play for some time there was time when poppy was picked at lcs riot pumped threads about her ballance right after that happened

also i fked up when i didnt say that those are supposed to be meele champions, for a ranged guy its easier becuase he still has that shot at kiting which meele lacks

How would these buffs/debuffs be accessed?

honestly i was thinking about implementing this stuff in their kits since as you noted items are used wiith diferent potency and they are also available to champiions which arent intended to use them (just like fighters adapted tank items, which resulted in nurfs) meaning ballance problems on a new scale

also there is the thing that its not given to be a buff or a debuff but some way of

"making immobile champions have a feature and a role that would encourage enemies interacthing with them on terms that even the odds more and pushing them into more of a commanding role where they are an important asset both to take down and to defend without being all about offense or defense"

this part of my post is what im speaking about while the buff or debuff was just my idea that i didnt analyze to the max yet its basicaly a feature that gives an immobile/ meele chapion a special role in his team that would change the rules of fight to allow such a champion to compete with kiting/mobility

totaly dropped the ball not writing that i think about meeles, ill fix

Laughing Cupcake1 votes

Two of my favorite champions are Mordekaiser and Darius , pretty much the definition of immobile melee champions. My play style revolves heavily around forcing the enemy to come to me, because frankly, dragging that heavy ax/mace across the map is just exhausting. You can do this by blatantly showing your face split pushing so that someone comes to try to stop you (kill them) or two people come to stop you (kill them). Sometimes you have to get sneaky in a bush at the last second to catch the mobile champion by surprise and burst them down as they come to the lane.

An item that was melee-only (like item 3074 ) and did something to make the enemy team want to kill you before your team mates sounds interesting to me. I don't think an item that buffs your team mates is the right answer, though, because it's that "hidden power" that Riot dislikes so much. Perhaps an improved version of item 3068 that did AoE damage out further and damaged structures for a few seconds and had a cooldown?

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

You can do this by blatantly showing your face split pushing so that someone comes to try to stop you (kill them)

thats probalby the most effective way besides warding and camping around the corners but the main problem arises when enemy sends someone like kalista/ashe, or some lee sin class bastard while leesin class bastard will be able to trade you sommehow or just clear the wave and run, kalista/ashe will leave you with your flash as only option to fight them

Meep Man1 votes

There are certain immobile champions who aren't useless, but Im guessing you are talking about them being weaker than others. I would be fine with SOME of them becoming this, but people like Darius and Olaf should stay as no gap closer Fighters since their identity in the game isn't team commander, it is slaughter men. They could use changes, sure, but no commander approach.

I like the idea of adding another ROLE to the game however. A lot of champions in the current game aren't too viable in their current position and new roles they could be balanced into could be nice for them and the game itself. New roles could also make the game feel less 2D and more 3D with multiple strategies.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Fighters since their identity in the game isn't team commander,

darius is a general (just pointing out) but i get your point, boith of them have killing their enemies personaly inbued into their theme

also i need to admit, i realy suck at conveying my thoughts to other people the aura was just an example i came with the main concept is to add fitting features that would impact specificaly the interaction beetwen a walking meele guy and kiting ranged/mobile guy into those champions kits

More from Gameplay

More by Knight SoIaire