A few thoughts on MMR and Ladder Ranks

DeathBurst··3 votes·782 views
https://death-burst.tumblr.com/post/159519283898/askghostcrawler-ive-noticed-in-a-lot-of

Ghostcrawler recently answered a question on Tumblr about what is MMR, what's its purpose, and why players shouldn't have access to it.

I disagree, and maybe some of you also want to voice in.


I disagree with some of what is said here. I understand the perverse incentive Riot wants to avoid, but on the other hand, a lot of people do play to get better at League, and not just to enjoy every match for its own sake. And in order for people to “get better” and get that sense of achievement/fulfillment, they need a somewhat accurate measure of their skill, and MMR is still the best we have for that.

Ghostcrawler here is trying to sell the idea that Ladder Rank, not MMR, should be what players use to measure their “progression”. It’s important to note: he used the word “progression”, when I used the word “skill” in my previous paragraph. The implication is that players shouldn’t really try to improve their skills, it ties in with his paragraph about “it’s aspirational but in practice no one’s really going to get pro”. “MMR isn’t really something you are supposed to get better at.“

So there are 2 things to unpack here: first one, even if they really shouldn’t, a lot of people still play to improve their skills, at least in part, and not just to fill a progress bar. That makes the game more interesting, there is more at stakes, and it’s a positive attitude that feels really natural. “I want to get better“ is more self-rewarding than “I just want to chill and enjoy a few games.” (especially in a game where there are two distinct mode for “chilling” and “getting better”, Normals vs RankedQ). So, wether Riot wants it or not, wether players should or should not, it’s happening. Why not try to support it and steer it in a positive way?

The second thing is, even if your MMR isn’t supposed to drastically change over time, it’s still important to know where people stand at, even if only for social/community interactions. Once again, this can lead to some perverse incentive, it’s a tricky question and I don’t have all the answers. But if a high Plat player discuss about some new crazy off-meta build, I’m not going to react the same way as if they were a Bronze player, and it’s not just being a snob. Within all probability, even if it works for the Bronze player in Bronze, they are hindering themselves and a more meta build is objectively better. If it still works in high Plat, chances are higher that this player truly has found an innovative way to play.

You’ll note that in the previous paragraph, I informally used “Bronze” and “Plat” as a proxy for skill measurement. But, and this was the point I wanted to get at, Ladder Rank is a terrible measure of skill. Because Ladder Rank is purposefully built as a “progress bar” to expose to players, it is, almost by definition, unreliable and inaccurate. As a personal example, I finished the previous Season in Gold5. I got placed at the beginning of the new season in Bronze3. I never stopped saying that I was a low Gold player, and I have since then climbed back to Gold5, but for 3 months, people would look at my profile and think I was lying, and I can’t blame them. Were my skills actually lower for this 3 months? Of course not, but it looked like so.

TL;DR: A “progress bar” is fine, but measuring skills is also important for various reasons, and so we should have access to our official MMR.

5 Comments

Grymmstrike1 votes

MMR is certainly not even close to an accurate measurement of skill. Win/Loss Ratio is just as good at measuring skill as MMR, and that is saying something. The only thing MMR does is deal with Win/Loss anyway, so there isn't even a purpose for MMR.

DeathBurst2 votes

Are you implying that all players with 52% winrate for instance all have the same skills? That's absurd.

Grymmstrike1 votes

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that MMR doesn't take anything into account except the winrates of people in a match, and therefore is utterly useless. If you are going to have a completely useless measurement system in place, just go with win/loss, it would be simpler and just as effective.

Valderis Vandala1 votes

Exposing MMR sets the expectation with players that it’s a bar that they are supposed to fill up

Not if you properly explain what it actually is, since its not a bar at all, its just a number, victories add to the number and losses subtract from it, right? There is no bar to be filled, the number just gets higher the better you become because you'll be winning more. Its the best representation for overall skill at the game, which is why you use it to determine match making, right?

Even worse, it can lead players to make decisions to try to get their MMR to change, not decisions that help to win the game.

But its only influenced by wins and losses, so it can't be gamed by definition so there should be no worries about this at all, right? Or are there ways to influence MMR outside of winning or losing a match? You can use that reasoning for your Mastery grading system but with MMR you're just bullshiting us unless MMR can actually be gamed.

It's a developer tool

What the fuck does that even mean?! Does that mean our MMR isn't just a measurement of our accumulated victories and defeats? Is it a tool for rioters to fiddle and tweak with behind the scenes?

Riot really needs to change their shitty attitude towards MMR. You almost have your new client Riot, its about time you made this stuff visible to the players.

Or is it that you fear the players will notice how out of sync MMR and ranks are if you reveal the real numbers? Or are you just fucking around with the numbers?

Even if its just for the sake of 'stopping' the frequent posts about 3rd party site MMR complaints, if you make it visible people will either no longer be tempted to use those sites or they'll use accurate numbers to get angry about instead of just random guesswork.

EDIT:

Or is it that with MMR visible people will find out that they don't need the ranked system to "measure their skill", since both ranked and normals have their own MMR, but normal MMR isn't hindered or gated by ranked promos, so with MMR plainly visible normal games would become a better representation of players unhindered skill if everybody make the switch to normal games?

DeathBurst1 votes

We seem to both agree that Riot should expose their MMR to players, so I'm sorry about the following, but your arguments are mostly off the mark....

its not a bar at all, its just a number

That's a ridiculous argument that nitpicks on the wording while ignoring the real idea behind. What Ghostcrawler means is that if you show a metric to players (be it in bar-form or number-form), what players understand is that their goal is to get it higher. And the whole point of his answer is that no, player shouldn't try to get their MMR higher, so they don't show it to us at all.

You can disagree about wether or not we should try to increase our MMR (I mostly think we should, that was the first half of my answer), but you can't deny the premise of Ghostcrawler: it's true that when you show a metric to players, they try to make it higher. The second half of my answer is arguing that other concerns outweigh this one, but it remains true nonetheless.

But its only influenced by wins and losses, so it can't be gamed by definition so there should be no worries about this at all, right? Or are there ways to influence MMR outside of winning or losing a match?

Yes, there is. Choosing the games you play at all. Dodging doesn't affect your MMR, for instance, or your could Open Mid games you are unlikely to win anyway to save time, and I'm sure people would find dozens of other little tricks. I don't think it would have a noticeable impact on the community as a whole, but is it possible? Yes.

" It's a developer tool" What the fuck does that even mean?! [...] Is it a tool for rioters to fiddle and tweak with behind the scenes?

What it means in this context is that it's an information useful for developers (e.g. to use in matchmaking) but it's not useful for players. What it does NOT mean is that Riot is "cheating" with MMR or "fucking with the numbers". It's just another way to say that players shouldn't focus on what their MMR is and shouldn't focus on getting their MMR higher.

Or is it that with MMR visible people will find out that they don't need the ranked system to "measure their skill", since both ranked and normals have their own MMR, but normal MMR isn't hindered or gated by ranked promos, so with MMR plainly visible normal games would become a better representation of players unhindered skill if everybody make the switch to normal games?

Why would that be a problem for Riot? People don't buy less Skins in Normals... And anyway that doesn't make sense. Ranked MMR (as opposed to Ranked Division) isn't hindered by promos either. Your MMR still changes even when you are in Promos.

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