Mobile champions have high base movement speed because...

Mira Arya Enthe··90 votes·6,030 views

Gasps! They are mobile!

Seriously, if anybody thinks that Darius Illaoi Mordekaiser DrMundo Garen need to be impossible to escape they shouldn't even be posting in the gameplay boards. The primary and in some cases only counterplay for Juggernauts is to stay away from them. Do people really think when Irelia Pantheon MasterYi XinZhao Shyvana Tryndamere jump into a fight or trade they should have no way of escaping or out maneuvering beefier/more sustained champions?

On top of that, movement speed isn't some binary stat in relation to other mobility spells. It is tuned based on how champions interact in team fights, roaming, rotations, split pushing, itemization, kiting, sustained fighting and laning. Riven has the same movement speed as Illaoi and Darius because she otherwise would lose every lane to them. According to League of Graphs(cited often by Riot games) Riven loses more often to Illoai by a couple % and barely wins vs Darius by a couple % making it mostly a skill matchup. Why would we change that? Her advantage is suppose to be out maneuvering them. As for Mordekaiser it is because Morde in his current iteration destroys everyone once he gets within melee range and has an item or two with minimal counterplay. You HAVE to be able to outrun Mordekaiser. Same could be said for Garen the binary champion who's only counterplay 90% of the time is not getting near him.

Of fucking course Jax has higher movement speed than Darius or Morde, he is suppose to be a mobile, roaming, dueling champion who plays around you. They aren't going to arbitrarily make him slow because for some reason Darius needs more roaming potential than Jax.

Some cases are also just bullshit claims "Why is Ekko faster than Juggernauts!?!". As said with Riven who has the same movement speed as Darius and Illaoi and LESS than Nasus so does Ekko not more, the saaame. And that is quite intentional. His mobility already has tradeoffs in tankiness, sustained fighting power and other strong assets such as penetration/shred that Juggernauts get. His movement speed isn't the tradeoff or he wouldn't even be a mobile champion, he would be just as immobile except reliant on cooldowns to match their mobility.

The ones with more are typically all in champions with less sustained damage and/or survivability than a Juggernaut Shyvana MasterYi Pantheon Jax have more than your average Juggernaut. That is because they are all in sustained fighters with less tankiness, sustain or CC. So they get to be a bit faster so they have a way out or a more solid way in. It is called a tradeoff.

And before anybody "Huff durr LeeSin the exception so it must be the rule!" No, Lee is an exception. He had too much movement speed for what he did, or what he did was too strong for his movement speed. But that is getting nerfed next patch so he will have the same movement speed as Shyvana, also a CD nerf when long CDs are rare on fighters in addition to the ult damage nerf a few months ago. I am not going to say he is or isn't balanced after these changes but it is already being addressed and we all know it was a problem.

Melees are already faster than ranged champions barring a few exceptions on either side, which are setup that way for a reason. And immobile melees either have the same speed or less than mobile squishies in most cases(see Nasus) because the tradeoff for mobility should not be mobility, that is ass backwards and will not balance champions. It will just either make it so they have to tune up their sustained fighting power and tankiness or make them worthless as they will be unable to outrun champions they just barely outrun as it is, who also usually out fight them in sustained melee range.

You also don't set down hard rules like that. Every champion is unique and needs tuning based on their individual kit, power budget, interactions, laning, mid game and late game. Their own counterplay, they own number tuning and their matchups. Not arbitrary rules that blanket over entire classes, if anything that has been one of the biggest problems with class updates. They bunch a bunch of unique champions together and give them all the same rules even though they are all extremely different.

I hope my passive aggressive tone didn't soil the tone of this post. But I am really tired of seeing posts trying to set down random gameplay philosophies that make no sense because of a generally shallow understanding of champion and game design.

116 Comments

Big Lincoln37 votes

did I miss something? did someone say that mobile champs shouldn't be mobile?

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/pNwPxU2K-champions-who-have-mobility-in-abilities-should-have-slower-movement-speed

Why would anyone think this and why is it upvoted? Darius would be fucking god-tier if Fiora, Irelia, Riven had less MS than he did; he would lose almost all of his lane counters if he could just naturally outrun any of these people

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

Post reached 19 upvotes on the home page that said any champion with a dash, leap, blink, etc should have lower movement speed than those who don't. And while I am sure you would enjoy nobody being able to outrun Darius(I mean I would enjoy nobody being able to outrun me on Ashe as well), I assume you are generally smarter than that and know that his counterplay is being slow.

Why would anyone think this and why is it upvoted? Darius would be fucking god-tier if Fiora, Irelia, Riven had less MS than he did; he would lose almost all of his lane counters if he could just naturally outrun any of these people

And I was correct, you are smarter than that. tho fuck Fiora

Ralanr9 votes

Lincoln is a lot smarter than he lets on. He just chooses to sound like a jackass at times.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

But that's why we love him

Big Lincoln7 votes

After all, I have an IQ of 96. that's almost a perfect score

Angrychickén2 votes

You are actualy a lot smarter than you let on.

When I first encountered you I thought you were a toxic qq jackass, but now.....

THe jury is out, but I would like to think your a good guy.

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

If the boards were an anime Big Lincoln would be the edgy antihero who is nice to no one yet still on our side.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Ye, we just have to dig through all the salt to reach the gems.

Penns11 votes

Because every champ with mobility in their kit must not be viable to keep the mobility creep thats going on down hehe xd

Mira Arya Enthe21 votes

Kassadin yeh Nidalee dat Vayne "modern" Irelia mobility Tryndamere creep Renekton such Riven new Katarina to Jax the Fizz game Ezreal amirite? Leblanc

It would be nice to see a couple more immobile releases. Like Jhin and Illoai were. But I love it when people pretend high mobility is new and mobility creep is a new 'problem'.

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

Who has said that it's a new problem? My understanding is that the boards have been complaining about this for years.

DoktorKaiser2 votes

Come on man stop playing dumb. I agree there were some problems even back then like Fizz , Leblanc , Vayne and mostly Kassadin , but ever since the release LeeSin and everyone spamming him and buying his skins and saying how "awesome" and "fun to play" he was, this game has become a cancer version of its former self where everyone is dashing and blinking around with free 40% cdr because everyone also loves urf amirite. If you played in season 1, you couldnt possibly think that mobility creep existed back then....

Mira Arya Enthe10 votes

No I started in pre-season S2. And from xin Zhao to Fizz mobility has been high since them'ol'good'days. But I am not obsessed with stagnation so no, I don't believe the game should have remained a DOTA clone with a lot of shitty and poor designs for the rest of time like it was when there were only 40 champion. We have had by % slightly more mobile champions since S2, but that is only if we include every tiny mobility like Braum's leap. And honestly I would rather have a game full of fun things like Warwick's new ult than full of stupid worthless/cancer abilities like Warwick's old ult.

Anidan2 votes

The other difference is that League can't have all of DotA2's mechanics anyway because a lot of the balancing features for those mechanics were removed in the transition from DotA to League. They were trying to use DotA-esque kits for League design in the beginning, and that didn't work out in the long run, just like it wouldn't work out if League or DotA tried to implement Abathur's or Murky's kit from HotS. Different games breed different design philosophies. As a result of the lack of these balance features, mobility crept up thanks in large part to, of all champions, Ashe.

TehNACHO3 votes

Not accusing you if you don't think that's a bad thing, but in my opinion that isn't a bad thing.

League's figuring out what it wants to be and honestly, at least things are kinda consistent right now. Everyone wants to complain about the new and the "broken" but time and again I can go to most any stat site and find the old and abused dominating the charts.

I remember seeing this on the old forums, but someone said (shortly after Yasuo's release) that Yasuo doesn't feel like he was designed to fit League of Legends. I'd like to argue that League of Legends has been following a similar design philosophy in the footsteps of Yasuo ever since though.

Erractic Eick2 votes

I think Jax is an interesting case. Is he mobile? Yes, but if he's jumping around all the time, you know what he isn't doing? Building passive stacks, and therefore doing much damage. Jax IS highly mobile, but his kit has a sort of anti-synergy to prevent the abuse of that mobility to deal damage with impunity.

Edit: That being said, CDR LEAPS4DAYZ Jax is amazingly fun, and I suggest everyone tries it one day.

Need Gold 4 Tent2 votes

well, whack whack whack jump back into range then whack whack whack, i don't see how having a lower cd jump affects his dps, since it keeps him in range to continue hitting the target. Unless there is a massive ms difference, an attacker will lose distance whenever he attacks if the target is running away.

Erractic Eick2 votes

Well, you're making the assumption Jax is only using the ability to get into the fight. He also needs it to get out, since it's his only escape.

In a team fight, if Jax jumps to one target, gets two whacks in, and jumps away, his passive is not going to be very useful. Jax needs staying power in a fight to unleash his full potential.

But you're right, 1v1 Jax is a very sticky champion, which is somewhat different from being a very mobile champion.

JuhnChan1 votes

Jhin immobile.

LMAO

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

If a movement speed boost is now mobility then there are only about 5 'immobile' champions in LoL.

RainbowIcee3 votes

Only issue i have with mobile champs personally is that champions like lucian shouldn't facewall their keyboard and outdps an imobile champ head on at a fair fight and escape dealing the most damage. I think this is were there's something wrong.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AROaRE83,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-12T15:44:37.415+0000)

did I miss something? did someone say that mobile champs shouldn't be mobile?

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/pNwPxU2K-champions-who-have-mobility-in-abilities-should-have-slower-movement-speed

Why would anyone think this and why is it upvoted? Darius would be fucking god-tier if Fiora, Irelia, Riven had less MS than he did; he would lose almost all of his lane counters if he could just naturally outrun any of these people

It’s because the juggernaut mains have a hate boner for everything that isn’t made exclusively for them to shit on everything from ever angle possible.

TyrekGoldenspear24 votes

Passive aggressive tone? I've yet to see the passive part of that post. :P

I think that people's ideas are in the right place, that someone like Azir should be slower because he's a mage and he has a dash + self peel so that someone like Garen or Tryndamere have a chance to catch him.

However you are correct in saying the number of dashes a champ has shouldn't dictate their movement speed. As someone mentioned in the thread I believe you are referring to, Vi has a dash and an ult, making her fairly mobile, however the reason she doesn't have low MS is because her only dash slows her when she casts it, which is the balancing tool for her dash.

There are several factors we need to consider when talking about whether a champ deserves a MS loss to pay for their mobility.

#How many Dashes/Blinks does the champion have?

A champion with a lot of dashes or low cooldown dashes like Kalista and Kindred have low MS because of their access to quick busts of mobility. In Kindred's case Lamb can wall hop quite easily. They both have 325 MS.

Xerath Has exactly 0 dashes or blinks, so he has 340 MS.

#What is the Champion's Role? Caster or No?

If the champion is a hypercarry or a heavy damage threat, they are usually given low MS. Juggernauts for the most part follow this rule. However Shyvana and Olaf break this rule because they have 350. However this is okay because unlike most other Juggernats, they are not AD Casters, but are autoattack reliant, so they need to catch up to people in order to beat them to death. In addition, they have no dashes or blinks with the exception of Shyv's on her ult.

Mages have low MS on average, however the amount of dashes they have usually dictates their MS as well as their role on a team. For example one of the fastest mages I could find is Ryze at 340. This is because he has no dashes/blinks save for a delayed and telegraphed ult, and his spells are for the most part single target unless he sets up his AOE combo beforehand. Brand is also in this tier, earning it despite his extreme AOE damage because he has absolutely no dashes or blinks of any kind, not even any kind of reliable CC.

Azir has a dash, a self peeling ult AND is an extreme damage threat late game. As a result he has the floor of MS to give people a chance to catch him if they find him with his spells down. (Except for me, Ghost Azir FTW :^))

Divers like Irelia, Assassins like Zed, they also have high MS to catch their prey and murder them, and the Divers are able to use their MS to disengage from fights and to outmaneuver.

#Ranged or Melee?

Melee champions on average have a higher MS as well, to mitigate kiting. For example there are absolutely no ranged champions faster than 340, but the champions faster than that are:

Aatrox, Cho'Gath, Diana, Dr. Mundo, Fiora, Gangplank, Hecarim, Irelia, Kled (Mounted), Nocturne, Poppy, Renekton, Rengar, Rumble, Singed, Sion, Tryndamere, Udyr, Volibear, Wukong, Xin Zhao, Yasuo, Zed, Akali, Spider Elise, Jax, Lee Sin, Nasus, Nunu, Olaf, Shaco, Shyvana, Trundle, Mini Gnar (Level 18), Master Yi, and Pantheon.

The only Exception, the fastest champ in the game, is Cassiopeia at level 18, but this is due to her inability to wear boots.

#MS Buff or No?

If a champion has a movement speed buff, they usually get a lower base MS. An example is Garen. He is on the lower tier of speed compared to other juggernauts at 340, but this is due to his speed buff on Q that cleanses slows. Skarner is another example at 335 MS, due to his speed buff. (Is Skarner even a Juggernaut at this point?)

#Putting it all together.

So let's take a champion and see why their MS is so.

Dr. Mundo. A Juggernaut with no speed buffs save for his ult and he is Auto reliant on the most part, with you needing to be in auto range for the bulk of his damage. No dashes or blinks, He is meant to wade into the enemy team and deal damage. Higher Teir of MS here.

Karthus. High Damage Threat, but no dashes or blinks, Mage, with no real CC save for a slow. He's rather snug in the middle, held back by his insane damage late game. But he isn't as slow as Azir because he can't escape if you catch him.

But what about Shyvana you may ask? She is one of the fastest Juggernauts AND is a pretty fast champ in general, yet she gets a low cooldown MS Buff? Well remember our other factors: Her Role. Shyvana is not an AD Caster like Garen. She can't just run on top of you and shred you with her Burnout. (RIP AP Shyv) She has to stop and auto attack you, thus her MS buff is allowed with her high movement speed.

What about Master Yi? He is without doubt the 2nd fastest champ in the game AND gets a speed buff. Well, this is due to the factors we mentioned before. His role is a skirmisher, an Auto reliant assassin. (AP Yi Joke here.) He has no CC (save death) and he is incredibly squishy as well. Therefore he has high MS to be able to juke and outmaneuver his foes to slice and dice them.

Pantheon is just as fast because while he has CC, his damage is almost completely meant for a single target. He can't teamfight very well, and is a Diver. High MS.

So yeah, I may very well have missed a lot of factors, but these are the most I came up with in my head at the time of writing this. Feel free to jump in and add another factor I can add for considering a champ's MS.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Azir, Kalista and Kindred are also ranged. Which is why I only compared melees. Ranged champions already have low movement speed and with good reason. That said I like your post, it is a good expansion on the point that I was trying to make that champions are balanced on a case by case basis. Champions are unique and cannot all have a set in stone rule. As for Xerath he is a special exception. Not a standard.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

Right, my intent was to make a big list of factors that people could look at and compare their champion to, to see why their champ was so slow.

Take Kindred for example,

Dashes/Blinks? Check.

Auto Reliant? Check.

High Damage threat? Check. (Late game only tho with many stacks)

Range or Melee? Range

MS Buff? No.

As a result Kindred's in the lower tier as a result of all of these factors.

Since you have to go by multiple factors for each champion, including whether or not their dash or blink has a delay, or costs them MS or something, this forces thought about why each and every champion has their MS. Like you said, there is no one size fits all rule.

Oh yeah, range of abilities is also a factor, but I'm too lazy to edit my giant post to add that in.

aceknighthigh2 votes

Xerath doesn't compare well to others in this aspect. I think people forget how crappy his peel is(delayed slow and a slow moving stun that does less the closer the target is), and they forget that his kit is filled with self targeted cc. To charge q you self-slow, or give up half of your range. To ult you give vision and root yourself in place. And he still suffers from having to stop and cast like other champs.

AmazoX10 votes

Mira Arya Enthe get your butt to challenger level already, Your game knowledge is respectable .

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

I disagree. But appreciate the comment. I am also working on climbing this year but between a full time job, part time job, piloting school, maintaining a roleplay group and a minecraft server. It is not easy. But I appreciate the optimism.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

Wait why piloting school? Are you an adult Kim Possible?

Also your game knowledge is fine.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

hahaha. No I want to be a pilot and fly airplanes. xP

Catastrop3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AROaRE83,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-05-12T16:47:09.742+0000)

I disagree. But appreciate the comment. I am also working on climbing this year but between a full time job, part time job, piloting school, maintaining a roleplay group and a minecraft server. It is not easy. But I appreciate the optimism.

You are like, the League role model I never knew I needed.

(I'm so sorry if this came off way too fangirly for your tastes btw)

AmazoX3 votes

Out of curiosity when is your birthday Mira Arya Enthe?

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Oct 1st

DuskDaUmbreon8 votes

It's not just balance, even. It makes thematic sense, too. Unless it's a champion similar to Kassadin, who's mobility comes from a short-range teleportation, it makes 0 sense for a mobile champion to be slower than an immobile one's. Take Ahri, for example. She's a fox-human hybrid, and typically non-massive animal hybrids (e.x. not a bear, elephant, rhino, or similar animal) are faster than humans in stories. Her kit revolves around staying just far enough away to kill yet not die. So it'd make literately ZERO thematic sense to have her have a slower base speed than the literal walking suit of armor that is Mordekaiser.

Hell, it even adds to the entire visual aspect. Ahri dancing just out of your range, taunting you as you struggle to hit her, that's perfect to her appearance. It'd lose that entire aspect if you walked faster than she could. Same applies to Mordekaiser. He's a walking, menacing, terrifying spirit that binds your very soul. Him moving slowly adds to a sort of…tension. It's like how the killer in a movie almost always walks slowly, no matter how fast his victim runs. The fact that he moves slowly means that he knows he will catch you in the end. Him running would look ridiculous, and it'd ruin the tension.

Truly Prideful5 votes

People just don't seem to understand why specific champions have lower movespeed. If you give me 340 on Ashe just because I'm immobile, you'll never reach me if I start to kite you. I can already kite most champions with her terrible movespeed, it's all a matter of practice.

And god damn people, stop bringing up Lee Sin. We all know his movespeed is bonkers on top of the rest of his tools and clearly Riot does too. Whether the nerf is enough or not remains to be seen, but stop beating the dead horse already. This is coming from a guy that absolutely hates Lee Sin too.

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Call Me Jhinpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AROaRE83,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-05-12T18:48:15.110+0000)

People just don't seem to understand why specific champions have lower movespeed. If you give me 340 on Ashe just because I'm immobile, you'll never reach me if I start to kite you. I can already kite most champions with her terrible movespeed, it's all a matter of practice.

And god damn people, stop bringing up Lee Sin. We all know his movespeed is bonkers on top of the rest of his tools and clearly Riot does too. Whether the nerf is enough or not remains to be seen, but stop beating the dead horse already. This is coming from a guy that absolutely hates Lee Sin too.

Are you saying a LB or Lee won't be able to reach Ashe if they lose 5 movement speed?

Truly Prideful5 votes

Those champions are exceptions to the rule. Lee Sin could probably reach most champions with 330 movespeed with the tools he has available to him, which is why it's weird that his movespeed is so high. LeBlanc is similar post-6, she can close so much distance in an instant without actually taking a step that her movespeed is largely unimportant. I don't think I've seen someone say anything about her movespeed either way.

The ones people complain about having low movespeed are things like the juggernauts who would completely dominate near every matchup if they were as fast as or faster than their usual counters. If Darius had as much as movespeed as any of his general lane opponents he would become extremely hard to lane against. That just becomes worse if he picks up the phage at all to easily run down whoever he is laning against.

Like I said though, who knows what Lee Sin's nerfs will even do at this point. They might not do anything to him at all, they might drop him down enough for people to shut up. I personally think they're looking at the wrong thing, but I don't work for Riot so my opinion is kind of pointless there.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

And before anybody "Huff durr the exception so it must be the rule!" No, Lee is an exception

Niyumi5 votes

I would write up some giant essay on why you're mostly wrong, but no one would listen anyway, and it doesn't matter either way.

Very short version: Mobile champs need to pay something for their mobility, not have mobility on top of god-tier damage / CC / sustain. And if you blow your mobility to fight someone, well you better be able to win that fight.

6Sfool2 votes

I don't see why this gets downvotes. A champion shouldn't have an unstoppable engage combined with insane solo kill potential. That's what causes the "I can't even leave base" situation, and it's one of the most tilting things in the game.

This doesn't mean that every champion with a dash should have 325 ms and low damage, but no champion should be able to reliably force a fight and have a guaranteed win with the nature of their kit. The champs I can think of that do this are Lee, Kassadin, Hecarim, Quinn, and sometimes Kled, Fizz, Yi, and Xin.

Niyumi4 votes

Everything I say gets downvoted. Doesn't matter if what I say is true or not.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Not true. I'll prove it.

Say the Earth is round.

Niyumi4 votes

It'd still be downvoted. :P

DunkinNoobs3 votes

I wish Garen fit into the "have to run away" crowd, but tons of champs can just stand in his spin and outduel him. It's actually why the Garen vs. Darius matchup is basically unwinnable; all Darius has to do is keep autoing you and he wins.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Yeah, apparently Spin2Win now mostly works on the particularly Villainous.

Unless of course you're playing full AD/Crit Garen.

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

Passive Aggressive? Since when are your posts passive?

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

For a human? Never, for a dragon? I am as passive as it gets :3

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

wtf

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

oh lol shyvana main I get it

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