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@Meddler - The Great Divide and Karma & Your Actions

Winterkill··15 votes·1,356 views

Two days ago I created a thread in regards to Karma's identity, theme and kit issues. This is all because of the rework Karma received close to 4 years ago. While I was expecting absolutely no communication from Riot games, I was surprised that so many people actually viewed and responded to the thread. I am grateful to anyone that actually responded in the thread, whether it was negative or positive. I will say most of it was positive and very constructive. I wish someone at Riot games had the same communication with us, other than a response that they had no response.

I read almost every single post that was inside the thread and I noticed something. There is a great divide between what Karma players want from her. We have two sides saying two completely different things about what they want and expect from Karma. I will say that both sides are pretty much spot on with what they want out of Karma. I am not taking a side because I am just trying to get more people to talk about her.

  • Left Side -

This spectrum of Karma player prefers what old Karma used to be as opposed to what she is now. Most players really miss her unique theme, identity, and kit that didn't bottleneck her as a support. What I noticed is a lot of players do not like the fact that she only really has one damage option and the fact that she is nothing more than a button mashing E+R mid to late game. This side of the Karma playerbase would prefer her to retain more of a battlemage identity with enchanter elements to her.

  • Right Side -

This spectrum of Karma player prefers what new Karma is. They like that she is a jack of all trades, really strong early game, and the disengage her R+E offers the team. What I also noticed is that this side of the playerbase like her as a support, but do find Karma a little bland and wouldn't mind seeing her shields be a little more interactive with others or herself. I do not know exactly what this mean, but this is the impression I got when I read a lot of the posts. The right side really likes Karma as a jack of all trades enchanter, but do find her very bland in terms of support.

I really did enjoy reading a lot of the posts. It got me really thinking about how Karma got to this place. There are very different opinions between players as to what Karma should be doing and who she is. The reason I keep coming to is because Riot does not communicate about anything regarding Karma. All the Red Names have no problem responding in a thread about Ryze, Ekko, ADC, Morde, or Aatrox. When threads regarding Karma and what their problems are with her and what they intend to do with her are posted in the span of 4 years . . . . with hardly any response . . . and no actual communication about the champion . . . . this is how Karma got to where she is now. Riot did not communicate at all with Karma players before and after her rework close to 4 years ago. You are continuing the trend of another year with 0 response and 0 communication in regards to anything about Karma. The type of work you are doing on her for the past couple years is a clear indication that what you are doing on her is not working. You are buffing her and then a few months later nerfing her.

Look, no one is asking for you to drop everything and start working on her. Karma mains understand that there is a lot in this game that needs to be worked on before her. We are not asking you to drop everything and start working immediately on Karma. There are champions in this game that are in a far worse condition than Karma is, even though that is questionable at times. The problem I have is that I go into threads and read Red posts . . . . . and I see 5 responses about Ryze in one week. I look for another champion and I see more responses for Aatrox that go way back to at least 4 to 5 months where some Red name is responding about Aatrox and communicating with his mains. I look up so many other champions and realize . . . . that in the span of almost 4 years and before her rework, Riot barely communicated at all to any Karma mains. The only response we have ever received, which is VERY little, is that she is probably going to be worked on at a side time . . . . or that they have no response . . . . . yet you always have one for Aatrox, Morde, Ryze or anyone else every single week and for months and every year.

Karma is in the state she is in now and there is a great divide amongst her mains. This was created by you and because of you, Riot. You did not communicate with us before her rework and you have not communicated with us after her rework for nearly 4 years. I do not really have an opinion on which side, Left or Right, is actually right. What I have a problem with is that everyone at Riot has no problem responding 5 times a week for years about Ryze and giving him a rework every year, but you cannot respond once about Karma in regards to her kit, theme, or identity. Karma fans are not asking for you to work on her at the present. We are asking for you to communicate. Please do better and thank you to everyone that comes into the Karma related threads and communicates with each other. I apologize to everyone on the boards that thinks we are whiney and annoying, but it's not really that. We are very passionate about Karma and want so much more for her, but that is not happening. It's happening for Ryze and the same champions every single year . . . but not Karma.

As always, stay frosty

  • Hiemal

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cGqoKvqx-riot-axes-and-riot-meddler-will-you-address-karma-in-2017-at-all

25 Comments

BastionKross5 votes

I joined League after the Karma rework, but am firmly in the left camp.

Watching footage of old Karma play, it looks challenging but at the same time very unique and fun. Won't get that with new Karma, the champion whose kit is so generic it could be used as a template if you ever wanted to make your own enchanter/support. She's so bland her champion select quote could reasonably be changed to "So, there wasn't any paint that you could watch dry instead?".

Every champion should feel unique in how they play or what they offer, but current Karma doesn't. She's a jack of all trades and a master of boredom. They even took her fans away, so her visuals are stagnant. Oh, some woman in a robe with stuff floating behind her. Does she use the stuff to attack like Irelia? No, it just kind of follows her around and glows once in a while. I suppose she does fire energy balls from her hands, but let's face it: she's no Goku. She's not even Krillin.

Jbels4 votes

I'm not going to pretend I understand the problem that Karma mains have with the current Karma. I've only played the current version, I was around when the old Karma was still here, but I never got around to playing it. I genuinely enjoy current Karma, and I would be sad to see her go.

While I can't understand why you hate the current iteration of her kit, I can perfectly understand not only how it feels to have your main champion reworked into something almost completely unrecognizable from what it used to be, but also how it feels to be ignored when it comes to voicing frustrations about the new kit. It's alienating, especially when the rework leaves your champion in a completely garbage state that everyone considers a troll pick. Shoutout to Malicious Metal for not dropping Morde when this happened. You're a true Metalmancer, and had more patience with CertainlyT than I ever could.

Winterkill4 votes

I enjoy reading his posts. :D Malicious Metal is amazing and I think everyone is proud of him for not giving up on Morde, when a lot of Shaco mains did just that.

Limmie2 votes

Stop making me feel bad for not playing Akali at all after the gutting :(

IxtaliKing8 votes

I'm not going to pretend I understand the problem that Karma mains have with the current Karma. I've only played the current version, I was around when the old Karma was still here, but I never got around to playing it. I genuinely enjoy current Karma, and I would be sad to see her go.

The problem that Karma mains have (particularly old Karma mains), is that everytime Riot has touched her, they've stripped away more and more of her identity. Her identity has been stripped to the point that people think her actual theme is being a leader... Surely that's not good, right? She's no longer Karmic, she no longer has duality, and she no longer has the options or skill cap anywhere near befitting of an "Enlightened One".

The biggest blows were the removal of her shieldbomb in 5.10, and then the over buffing her RE 6.6 which Karma mains warned against. Since then Karma seen a steady stream of nerfs all of which have missed the point, and we're still ignored to this day. Worst of all on top of that, Riot have put us in a position where we are essentially pitted against other (mostly newer) Karma players who like how she is now. Karma mains are mad because Riot says they care but their actions and lack of willingness to have any communication regarding Karma speaks volumes.

MisterShameless3 votes

This sums it up pretty well.

Teridax682 votes

In a way, it's kind of appropriate for the game's duality-themed champion to also have the most divided fanbase, split across her two iterations.

As someone who joined League just a little while before Karma's overhaul, I received very little exposure to Old Karma. Looking at her old kit, my take on her is that she was a champion with some really cool themes and ideas, i.e. duality, her short combat range, her unique combination of damage and utility; but terrible and confusing execution, which is why she had such low visibility and needed a rework. New Karma is pretty much the opposite: her kit is objectively quite healthy and fun, but also fairly generic, and she doesn't really have any unique features that truly make her stand out. We're starting to see this now especially after her balance changes, which show that she only truly becomes competitive if her numbers are seriously inflated, a surefire sign that she lacks a strong niche.

Another large issue right now is that Old and New Karma have effectively become two different champions: Karma's rework originally sort of kept her shield bomb, but now that it's gone, we're left with two champions that have pretty much nothing in common, which makes reconciling both parts of her fanbase even more difficult. She needs a VGU, simply based on the issues with her current kit and underused theme, but doing so means having to find a compromise between a relatively durable, short-ranged utility mage with practically no crowd control (Old Karma), and a squishy, poke-heavy, jack-of-all trades support with a much more typical suite of CC (New Karma). I don't know if it's even possible to combine those two champions into one and still end up with a coherent kit, and I imagine Riot's been holding off on communication precisely because of how complicated and divisive this problem is.

IxtaliKing8 votes

Generalist champs have an appeal of their own which tends to be quite broad, and most of the people (if not all) who like Karma as she is currently, like her solely for that reason. Those people generally don't care about champs on any level beyond just their gameplay, so these people won't see any issues with Karma until she's out of the meta. Even then, the only issue they'd see or care about is that she's weak or just out of meta and they'd move on.

Karma being a generalist means she can fill many different roles depending on her build (Tank, Support or Mage), but does none of them particularly well. If Karma is doing particularly well in any of those roles, chances are she's overtuned and is overshadowing other champs (as she currently is in support).

The current iteration of Karma would make more sense in a moba like Vainglory; where they encourage the augmentation of their characters role based on their item builds. But in this game, it just feels like bad design. Maybe a true role/lane agnostic generalist champ could work with the right execution, but definitely not Karma.

Teridax683 votes

The thing is, versatile champions tend to be really popular, because they feel like they have plenty of options, the main issue is that it's extremely dangerous to have a generalist champion in an environment where everyone needs a niche, since it's easy for them to end up with poorly defined strengths or weaknesses. Lee Sin, Thresh and Yasuo are all generalists, and are popular due to the versatility of their kits, but also tend to really grate with those playing against them when they're strong, because it doesn't feel like they have any significant drawbacks. Karma isn't as polarizing when it comes to playing as or against her from a pure enjoyment perspective, but that also means that the moment she drops out of the meta, her popularity plummets.

Karma in particular, though, deserves to have a versatile toolset, because her identity is supposed to revolve around duality, and while her old kit had a lot of issues, it managed to carry some pretty major weaknesses that enabled her wide array of strengths. She had tremendously weak crowd control, for example, which is a massive drawback for any champion intended to be played as a support, and her fairly short combat ranged forced her to expose herself. Those are both tremendously significant, unique weaknesses for a utility mage, and should have stayed as defining characteristics of her new kit. Instead, New Karma mostly plays like a traditional support with extra poke, and her battle mage-y W, while useful, doesn't really force her to get up close so much as it gives her an additional measure of security against melee enemies. Effectively, her overhaul took away some pretty major and potentially healthy weaknesses, which is why she's currently stuck in jack-of-all trades territory.

Even just by keeping to Karma's current kit, Riot should probably take steps to put her more into battle mage territory by reducing her spell ranges and increasing her consistency. RW, for example, is still a relatively unpopular spell compared to RQ and RE, in spite of its massive potential root, and isn't even particularly great when used for self-protection. While it wouldn't entirely solve the issue of her not truly applying her duality theme to her spells, it would allow her to be stronger as both a mage and a support, while still taking her out of total jack-of-all-trades territory. The one problem with this is that she's currently valued for her poke, which might have to be toned down for her to become a true battle mage, so even that much could risk angering her current fanbase.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Lee Sin, Thresh and Yasuo are all generalists, and are popular due to the versatility of their kits, but also tend to really grate with those playing against them when they're strong, because it doesn't feel like they have any significant drawbacks.

I think being a generalist works much better on higher skill cap champions, especially when those champs have cohesive kits like the 3 you listed. Karma's skill cap is pretty much her skill floor, as long as you know the game well you'll be as a good of a Karma as you need to be.

Karma in particular, though, deserves to have a versatile toolset, because her identity is supposed to revolve around duality, and while her old kit had a lot of issues, it managed to carry some pretty major,weaknesses that enabled her wide array of strengths.

I absolutely agree, this is where Mantras need to be fixed. A versatile kit shouldn't be a kit which has already decided when and how your spells should be used for you, like Karma's currently does.

Even just by keeping to Karma's current kit, Riot should probably take steps to put her more into battle mage territory by reducing her spell ranges and increasing her consistency.

Most battle mages operate between the ranges of 600 - 1000 units (short - mid range), so her spell ranges can pretty much stay the same. The cast type of her RQ however, is an artillery cast type; being most effective when cast at max range and less reliable closer ranges (easier to whiff). RQ as a ground targeted AoE might be the way to go for that.

RW, for example, is still a relatively unpopular spell compared to RQ and RE, in spite of its massive potential root, and isn't even particularly great when used for self-protection.

RW... Karma's emergency heal spell. The massive root potential is an absolute waste and serves no real purpose. Perhaps 1 out of 10 times using that spell you said to yourself: "Right... I'm going to extra root this guy so my team can wail on him for longer!". Without the additional mantra damage, RW is barely worth the risk staying in range for from mid to late game, especially if you're building AP like Riot says they intended for Karma. Riot need to find something at least as satisfying and as useful as the pre 5.10 Mantra damage for RW, otherwise she's going to need an entirely new spell, it sucks.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

The cast type of her RQ however, is an artillery cast type; being most effective when cast at max range and less reliable closer ranges (easier to whiff). RQ as a ground targeted AoE might be the way to go for that.

That's pretty much the core problem with the spell, and the fact that it's an artillery ability, on a champion who's meant to be more of a battle mage, is in large part why Karma lacks definition right now. The fact that it's touted as one of her strengths as a support makes things even worse, since it'll make things even more painful when she will eventually be forced to give up either her poke or her battle mage identity (preferably the former). A ground-targeted ability might work, and I also think there's value in perhaps trying to bring back her old conic AoE, provided it gets appropriate enough gameplay.

{quoted}

RW... Karma's emergency heal spell. The massive root potential is an absolute waste and serves no real purpose. Perhaps 1 out of 10 times using that spell you said to yourself: "Right... I'm going to extra root this guy so my team can wail on him for longer!". Without the additional mantra damage, RW is barely worth the risk staying in range for from mid to late game, especially if you're building AP like Riot says they intended for Karma. Riot need to find something at least as satisfying and as useful as the pre 5.10 Mantra damage for RW, otherwise she's going to need an entirely new spell, it sucks.

That's the thing: Karma's RW is the longest root in the game, longer even than Morgana's, yet even on top of a self-heal, it's not enough to make the spell feel worth using over RQ or RE in most circumstances. If Karma operated more like a battle mage overall, perhaps she'd feel more comfortable putting herself at risk to use it, but right now it doesn't mesh well with her current poke-heavy playstyle.

If Karma has one current counterplay issue, though, it's with her W + E combo: against heavy fire, it's not too bad, but in one-on-one situations, it means Karma can secure a root on a target at close range, unless they blow a gapcloser (which assassins and fighters will have used already to reach her). Karma's old tether had some serious power appreciation issues, but one of its advantages is that having the bonus movement speed on her W made for some much more natural synergy. While this would likely entail many more follow-up changes, shifting her bonus movespeed onto her W would force the ability to be balanced around the effect. Her old clothesline effect also had some great value, and could help differentiate the ability from LeBlanc or Morgana's own tethers, which are extremely similar in function.

IxtaliKing2 votes

That's pretty much the core problem with the spell, and the fact that it's an artillery ability, on a champion who's meant to be more of a battle mage, is in large part why Karma lacks definition right now. The fact that it's touted as one of her strengths as a support makes things even worse, since it'll make things even more painful when she will eventually be forced to give up either her poke or her battle mage identity (preferably the former).

Preferably the former, but the latter is possible since there's support from a Rioter (Statikk I believe) to make Karma an artillery Enchanter. The idea was shot down by a ton of players on both sides of the Karma community immediately, but who knows? It's not like they haven't consistently ignored the Karma community for 4 years, it's one of the few consistent things about Riot (salt).

A ground-targeted ability might work, and I also think there's value in perhaps trying to bring back her old conic AoE, provided it gets appropriate enough gameplay.

If she has a conic AoE they have to bring back her fans, would be nice but I highly doubt they would do that. If she uses a ground targeted AoE we could have visuals of the twin dragons from her lore converging at the target location, which would be cool too.

That's the thing: Karma's RW is the longest root in the game, longer even than Morgana's, yet even on top of a self-heal, it's not enough to make the spell feel worth using over RQ or RE in most circumstances.

There's probably nothing that will make RW feel more encouraging to use outside of an emergency heal than an additional damage component. Nothing is more satisfying for a mage than to see a health bar melt. Prior to 5.10 there would be many situations you would choose RW over RQ or RE, not anymore. Now it's garbage.

RQ - Had the highest damage potential and was safe, but unreliable on its own. RW - Had high damage with increased risk, but was reliable. RE - Moderate damage with protection, best saved for team fights or to counter vs burst damage in a 1v1.

If Karma has one current counterplay issue, though, it's with her W + E combo: against heavy fire, it's not too bad, but in one-on-one situations, it means Karma can secure a root on a target at close range, unless they blow a gapcloser (which assassins and fighters will have used already to reach her).

I don't think her W + E combo is unfair in any way tbh, not in the scheme of things.

Karma's old tether had some serious power appreciation issues, but one of its advantages is that having the bonus movement speed on her W made for some much more natural synergy.

I think her RW should have a different function, ms feels perfect on Karma's E. Especially considering every shield in the game has a secondary effect:

Janna - Shield + AD Lulu - Shield + pix Orianna - Shield + resistances Ivern - Shield + damage (-__-) and slow Karma - Shield + MS

Aptest2 votes

I am a support player who like karma as she is. As you describe, I care about champions mostly on their gameplay level and my care for them outside of gameplay is really not there. I do care about the audio-visual design a little bit.

I do however see what you are getting at. Old Karma had a bunch of intricate gameplay mechanics. The shield bomb is the most known but the slow/stun tether is definitely a more elaborate mechanism.

Karma's current kit is fairly simplistic: especially in comparison to her old kit. So i think i understand that Karma mains lament the lack of gameplay depth she has now.

There are two possibilities with deep gameplay champions. Either they have too many buttons to press and therefore always have an answer to whatever - and as a result are very frustrating to play against (yasuo and lee here) or they have very specific mechanics that require a very specific answer or otherwise they trump you - as a result they make the list of playable champions very short when they are good (illaoi, kalista). Generally we see a combination of both factors.

overall too much "deep gameplay" leads the game towards a "hard counter" situation where some lanes are lost and won at champion select. But OTOH most players want to play intricate champions with many options and fun combos (which is why nobody listens to that crazy youtuber that wants all the bronzies to play volibear 24/7).

that being said i think we can deal with "deep gameplay". And there are enough other simple supporters out there to satisfy the people who want a solid catch-all pick. Also I have been supporting for a while now. I want complex champions.

IxtaliKing3 votes

that being said i think we can deal with "deep gameplay". And there are enough other simple supporters out there to satisfy the people who want a solid catch-all pick. Also I have been supporting for a while now. I want complex champions.

I absolutely agree, I think especially where supports are concerned they could do with more complex champs. Personally I believe some themes require greater gameplay depth to either do them justice, or even make sense of them. For example I think a character like Thresh needed deeper gameplay to make sense of how something like him could be a support, thematically.

I think for Karma being "The Enlightened One", her kit definitely shouldn't be so binary, and she should have some kind of theme which can be communicated through her gameplay. Riot could go the Karmic route, making her kit excel at punishing aggression or making her some kind of anti snowball champ. They could also go back to her duality theme which old Karma mains loved. Either way, she really shouldn't stay as is, it's not right.

h5LYF41Lam1 votes

i like how when i play support in ranked my team sees me lock in karma and they are like sweet we are in for some good shielding,then 15 minutes later they realise that i am going full ap,karma is my undercover full ap support when my team says they dont want lux.

Winterkill5 votes

If you want to do that it is better to play Zyra, Brand or Velkoz . . . . because they do it much better. Karma may have insane shields, but she doesn't have the type of damage you are looking to do mid to late game. She is very useful for her shields and button mashing E and E+R in the middle and end of the game . . . . . but she does absolutely no damage after 6 compared to other mages or full support ap mages.

h5LYF41Lam1 votes

her shield scales hard with ap

Winterkill4 votes

The question you have to ask yourself is simple:

Are you going to buy items that protect your teammates and keep them alive longer . . . . or are you going to buy full AP items with magic pen so you can do damage? There are better carries on your team that can do the job better. Also, that is not really true. Are the ratios good? Yes; however, you can build items that help the entire team and do more than just building all AP . . . . . hoping that you do actual damage to a said enemy champion.

Riot turned Karma into a support that is fully utilized for her shields and disengage with E+R. She is not being fully utilized if she is building all AP and magic penetration items.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

bottlenecked as a support???

lol

Winterkill5 votes

She is. There is absolutely no reason to build AP on her besides strengthening her shields . . . . . when you can buy the new items that do it better. If you think Karma is going to do the same damage as a true mage mid to late game, you are wrong. Am I saying it is not possible? No. Am I saying it is easier and more efficient to build the items that increase the effectiveness on her shields and let her teammates do the dirty work for her? Yep. It takes time and way too long for Karma to be an effective mage since she has to chunk them down continuously with her Q and Q+R. A lucky Karma player might be able to one shot a squishy person with her Q+R . . . . but that is very rare and most likely not going to happen when you are too busy shielding your allies to do it for you in the back.

VoidStaresBack2 votes

Or you could play Tank Karma in the top lane and be a general pain in the ass to the enemy team.

I mean what I've totally never done that what are you talking about?

Winterkill2 votes

I play Karma in top lane a lot. I have tried nearly every build and item on her in the top lane and have come to the conclusion that it is cancer. With nearly three items, she is unkillable. If the enemy player is lucky enough to get early ganks and trick the tank Karma, then yeah . . . it is possible to kill her.

I don't understand what your question is . . . . . can you elaborate?

VoidStaresBack1 votes

Oh I was just being snarky and pointing out that she theoretically can be played outside of support, but really not saying much of anything at all. Y'know, as people usually do.

Winterkill3 votes

Well, I will tell you . . . tank Karma is not the best unless you have at least one shield item. Karma tank is a very niche pick when a front liner is not really needed. She doesn't really have the build to be a front liner . . . . even with the shield enhancing items. Karma is not providing the cc or front lining ability another tank provides better. She can only shield damage and heal herself so much before the enemy team slips right past her and kills the carries . . . . or your whole team.

Tank Karma is very good in lane . . . . and can be good in the right matchup. Is she going to provide the right plays against a real tank that is better at it than her? Nope.

VoidStaresBack2 votes

Well yeah, I know. I just felt like being snarky. Don't mind me XD

If you want a legit response to your thread I'm in the second camp, mostly by virtue of having started playing League long after the Karma rework.

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