Zed's R is too strong, but LeBlanc's W is just fine?

Lemons22·May 13, 2015·68 votes·3,428 views

So I guess they're nerfing Zed's R...he'll have to wait 1 second before reactivating to return to his shadow...after hearing this I couldn't help but think of a very similar champion...LeBlanc! If this kind of "pop in, rape you, instantly pop away" behavior is unacceptable on one champion's freaking ULTIMATE ABILITY, then why is it acceptable on another champion's W?

That's probably been my biggest issue with LeBlanc is you'd have to have spider sense to actually land anything on her when she Ws in...there's really no risk for her at all. So I guess I'm saying they're going to nerf Zed in this way LeBlanc should get the same treatment because she's an even bigger offender.

65 Comments

LoLKiruMay 13, 201531 votes

This needs to be made into a PSA with how often I've said it today lol.

It was stated before that if this change works out well for Zed, it will probably happen to LeBlanc as well (that is to say, she'll be stuck for 1 second after she uses distortion before she can return to her glyph)

masterdragon481May 14, 20152 votes

Came here to say this. Thank you.

MidEvilKnight3kMay 14, 20151 votes

I am pretty sure it was a maybe not a probably.

SmokinSickStyleMay 14, 20151 votes

Except LB won't suffer it as much seeing how she has invisibility+shaco ult plus Zhonya, Zed only has his ult to be safe, W is used to continue a combo or to enter the range of ult.

LoLKiruMay 14, 20151 votes

I feel like you've replied to me about this more than once (maybe you haven't and I'm remembering wrong but anyway)

LeBlanc won't suffer as much, thats undeniable, but she will suffer a good bit. Without a way to escape it will be significantly easier to return fire on her early on when she doesn't have her ult (and even when she does have it, you'd be forcing her to blow her ult to get away).

For instance, her QW combo at level 2, will now be significantly more dangerous to attempt since she runs the risk of simply getting CC'd as soon as she teleports and someone reacts to it and losing a good chunk of health to a combo, whereas without the delay she could simply teleport away as soon as her W connects.

Battlecast SonaMay 15, 20151 votes

LeBlanc will suffer because if she blinks on your head to pop her mimicked Sigil she can't instantly blink away. Without a silence, this is incredibly dangerous.

I've said this in a lot of threads, but this change to her W would put some skill and decision making into LB's combo by forcing you to either land E to combo someone or put yourself in a dangerous position to W them. Right now the decision is "would I like to CC someone or just burst them" when really the decision should be "do I want to burst someone guaranteed and be out of position for a minute or potentially miss chains and not kill them but keep my escape CD."

SmokinSickStyleMay 15, 20151 votes

Then don't use it to pop the mark, it's a goddamn mobility spell, it shouldn't be also a damaging tool, i see many LB using her chains to pop the mark and use W to position themselves to ensure they hit their spell, LB should be an assassin not a lanebully you can't trade with, if she choses to blink onto you SHE MUST be punished for doing so, not doing a combo in less than a second without you even noticing when jumped on you for half your HP at lvl 2.

HappyHazard07May 14, 20151 votes

You've made my day and my vision for the future of league so much brighter. Thank you.

UberAffeMay 13, 20159 votes

They have stated that they are just doing to zeds ult first and if things go well they will do a similar thing to leblanc. That aside zed has no limiting factor other than cd's, energy regens too fast for it to really count. While leblanc uses mana and if she is out, she isn't getting anymore. Not that her jump isn't broken but mana champions will and should always have better damage on their abilities than energy champions.

XeroKimoMay 14, 20151 votes

But if you are smart, if the last spell you used before oom is w, your r has no cost so you can use it again

Penguin EclipseMay 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But if you are smart, if the last spell you used before oom is w, your r has no cost so you can use it again

If you are forced to use your R to escape because you have no mana and can't kill them with the R, then you screwed up.

LeeDarkMay 14, 20151 votes

Or, you killed them without it, and then see the jungler and ADC coming for you.

RSE ChippTheFoxMay 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That aside zed has no limiting factor other than cd's, energy regens too fast for it to really count. While leblanc uses mana and if she is out, she isn't getting anymore. Not that her jump isn't broken but mana champions will and should always have better damage on their abilities than energy champions.

LB usually has Bluebuff and Morello's, so I mean... Mana isn't a huge issue, plus she can use her R without costing mana if she uses W first. So she has two of those blinks, only costing her something like 80-100 mana and can use them both in under a second. LB need's this to happen to her as well, and I say that being someone who plays her a lot. The fact that she can Q-W-R and W again back to safty with a free kill is no better than Zed pressing R-QE-Auto-R. Infact, it's a lot more toxic.

UberAffeMay 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not that her jump isn't broken but mana champions will and should always have better damage on their abilities than energy champions.

I agree that she needs it, I was just saying that it is more acceptable for a mana champion to have an issue like this than any other kind of resource champion because of the early gating on its use.

ChaosThiefMay 14, 20158 votes

LB's has less range, more telegraph'd and slower. Also doesn't grant her invincibility while she's moving toward the target.

...Personal thoughts.

Lemons22May 14, 20152 votes

Less range? 600 vs 625...that's basically the same. And Zed's ult is WAYYYY more telegraphed! What are you smoking? Zed has to ult on an enemy champion, and will always appear behind that champion...that fact alone already makes him very vulnerable because you know exactly where he'll end up. You can see 3 shadows rush at his target and hear his signature "ha ha ha". All in all there's already a lot more counterplay in Zed's ult than LB's W.

Probably the only thing you got right is that it does grant invulnerability and LB's W doesn't, but come on...we're talking about an ultimate here...it had better be more impressive than another champion's W or what's the point?

DemiluniSMay 14, 20151 votes

exactly you comparing an ult to a normal ability. zed using his ult purely to blow someone up, leblanc's W got other uses outside of it, and it's not even her main source of damage

ChaoticPineconeMay 14, 20151 votes

since you are talking about "ults", the best use of Leblanc in an AOE fight is to mimic the distortion.
Zed still wont get a delay on his W.
if you can time the "Ha-ha-ha" and land some CC on him, you should be able to time Leblanc's W (it makes a very distinctive noise) and land a skillshot on her. the only difference is that with Zed, you aim behind you while with Leblanc, you aim in the direction of where she was standing.
zed doesnt need to use his ult to farm. all of leblanc's other abiltiies are single target, and she cant even equalize a push by autoing minions.

FluxBoundMay 14, 20151 votes

3: well not anymore. Rip zed

ChaoticPineconeMay 15, 20151 votes

im not sure what you mean. i thought the poster meant that Zed's ult was pretty calculatable. he will ult you, you hear the "ha ha ha" and he will appear right behind you. you can time your abilities to hit the second zed appears with his death mark (similar to timing abilities to hit when the Zhonyas stasis ends).

the same thing is true of Leblanc's dash. Its a dash, meaning it can be inturrupted. if you have a straight-line skillshot (Ahri, Morgana, Lux) or what used to be Veigar''s cage, you can actually stun her mid dash if you aim it right and time it right.

i propose that timing a Leblanc's dash from the distinctive sound it makes isnt much harder than timing a Zed appearing behind you after he ults.

terkmcMay 14, 20151 votes

LB burst is instant, and Zed ult is much more telegraphed. He litearlly laugh and point: "Im going to appear right here". Leblanc just go poof

VeryGreenMay 14, 20155 votes

Because LB's isnt an execute. Zeds ult is basically one

JofeyyMay 14, 20158 votes

LB herself is an execute lmaoo

SpongebobIsLifeMay 14, 20151 votes

you sir, +1

VeryGreenMay 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

LB herself is an execute lmaoo

Or you could do the smart thing and build MR... then you wont get executed at all.

SpaceClopWarriorMay 14, 20155 votes

I call bullshit. LB can wreck anyone who tries to build MR early game with her full combo plus sorc shoes and morellos. You have to either outburst her or CC her to win, which is the same issue that people fighting assassins have had since day one.

Adaelphon DelatMay 14, 20153 votes

Part of the problem is that you can't really outburst her or CC her. It's one thing for pro matches where the infrastructure is designed for it and they have godly reflexes, but when I'm sitting here on the east coast with 90-100 ms ping and have normal human reflexes, there's not enough time for me to respond. And she is designed solely to do single target burst, so most other people can't do that better unless already fed.

Penguin EclipseMay 14, 20153 votes

It will be interesting to see how it plays out on Zed. But one thing is certain. On LeBlanc a 1 second delay would make her unviable without significant buffs elsewhere in her kit.

By the time LeBlanc jumps in, most of the time she will have already used all of her abilities. Unless she uses ignite or saved her E, she is a sitting duck every millisecond she remains. She is super squishy with no defenses. No sustain. Keeping her there for 1 second is enough time for her to be CCed or simply nuked 100-0. In lane it wouldn't hurt her too badly but her teamfights would be absolutely crap.

Lemons22May 14, 20153 votes

Well it doesn't have to be 1 second...it can be .5 seconds maybe. As long as it's not instantaneous. That way it's still very hard to cc her, but not virtually impossible like it is now.

DemiluniSMay 14, 20151 votes

well she doesn't use her W just for killing, you also farming with it, getting in the creep wave and then staying there.....feels kinda clunky

GavranMay 14, 20153 votes

LeBlanc's W is a dash

Zed's shadow jumps are blinks

Zed's ult makes him untargetable

they are not comparable.

Dash vs Blink is important because you can interrupt dashes. Syndra E in particular is hilariously effective at stopping LB from ever hitting you with a W.

Untargetable is obvious, you can dodge nearly everything with it. See Fizz.

ChaoticPineconeMay 15, 20151 votes

i personally thing Lux is hilariously effective at stopping Leblanc if you play the matchup right. Oh - you distorted in? Interrupted with a bind to the face. Oh, Lux timed it wrong and Leblanc managed to land the distortion? youre still bound. She timed it horribly so you got the distortion AND the return off? guess what - youre still bound. (its almost painful playing against Lux's who throw bindings on CD, hoping to land one at max range. your practically inviting me to burst you down).

If you can catch Leblanc's first proc of E with your shield, and you get the return in time for the second proc.

as long as lux is competent at farming with autos and not her spells (a rare feat nowadays), the only thing you can do is roam.

GavranMay 15, 20151 votes

Ooh I didn't know a root would stop her too. I play a lot more Lux than I do Syndra (not that I play a ton of mid in general these days). I'll have to remember this. :)

Glad to see more people besides me seeing the counterplay though. It's not very apparent, she seems like she just kind of ends up on your face, but it's totally there.

Coincidentally I do play a lot of Support these days and stopping a Zenith Blade with Flay is exactly as satisfying.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 13, 20152 votes

Read the notes. They said that if they like this, they'll explore doing it to leblanc.

Lemons22May 14, 20151 votes

Please tell me where this info is in "the notes" because I read the patch notes and there was nothing about applying the same treatment to LB. Am I expected to read the patch notes and every other scrap of news as well? Sheesh.

Shadow GilgameshMay 14, 20152 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/c2fkVfRo-there-is-no-zed-nerf-on-the-pbe?comment=000e00010000

not in the patch notes, but it was said. I REALLY hope it works out because I'd love to see LB actually have to pay something for her W

KieferrMay 14, 20151 votes

Leblanc just got a game changing Nerf not too many months ago (silence removal), which made her extremely unpopular and unviable for quite a while. All of a sudden now, you find her W to be a problem? Shes essentially the SAME champion after patch 4.10 last June other than a few tweaks.

lDontLiftIcarryMay 14, 20151 votes

man you adc mains need all the pampering you can get.

We tank players protect you and you still bitch like little tards about assassins. The most overbuffed class in the game that a one armed monkey could A move and still do better than bots/plats and lowers.

Maybe you should learn to position instead of playing frontline lucian/graves/caitlyn all the time? =] How about buying a BV? =]

9kPluzZMay 14, 20151 votes

Lol, In LCS they protect you. In solo Q, most of the time my tanks are found running around like idiots.

lDontLiftIcarryMay 14, 20151 votes

Yeah thats a lie fabricated by low elos.

its why jinx has a 50%+ winrate since release even in assassin meta.

So yeah. No excuses kthx.

9kPluzZMay 15, 20151 votes

oh, if that isnt the case, Why are imobile adcs that do more damage, less popular than mobile adcs? Why are sivir and kogmaw commonly seen in LCS, yet nvr picked in Solo Q? Sure its a lie.

lDontLiftIcarryMay 15, 20151 votes

simple because they're not broken sacks of shit with easy to use and abuse kits.

ChaoticPineconeMay 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

oh, if that isnt the case, Why are imobile adcs that do more damage, less popular than mobile adcs?

[(http://loldb.gameguyz.com/statistics/1/2/2/2/0/30)] Jinx is the most popular ADC.

Ill tell you why Kogmaw isnt as popular - he has a tough early game. yes, lategame KogMaw with 6 items is probably the strongest ADC. But he doesnt get strong until he gets 2-3 items. Vayne is strong after a BOTRK. Jinx, lucian, ezreal, corki, and graves are strong at level 1.

(Sivir is a weird one, since she doesnt really do much damage. her popularity is in her utility. The team with sivir can dictate when they want to fight or just run away)

its similar for late game AP champions like Anivia and Karthus. Why play them when you get the same late game power with an easier early game with Cassio and Azir?

firsttimerop666May 14, 20151 votes

leblanc is literally played only played for her mobility, her main counter is leona in my opinion but aloso sion gnar, or anyone with cc like taric or ryze even. just stun or snare and gg. if your going to nerf her, nerf her damage/ ap ratio.

AbsoluteSadmanMay 15, 20151 votes

"WAAAAAAAAAH ZED IS TO OP"

Time passes

Zed gets a nerf everyone wanted

"What zed is getting nerfed wtf why isint lb getting nerfed this game is dumb"

Cmon guys

GigglingAngelMay 15, 20151 votes

They said they are thinking about doing something about her once they see what the change does for Zed. Be patient.

OperationDEEZ1May 15, 20151 votes

Double standards my friend, get used to it.

ls2eFvBHYfMay 15, 20151 votes

Zed would still be balanced if his ult stayed as it was and LB's was nerfed. Her raw damage output is honestly just insane, although the removal of DFG did make it slightly more balanced.

WildDoodleMay 15, 20151 votes

i agree with this. why isnt LB ever being touched?

MartyrofsandMay 15, 20151 votes

There is a bit of a difference between Leblanc and Zed though. Zed's ult makes him untargetable and any ability trying to hit him when he ults is removed. Leblanc will still get hit by them, save skillshots she dodges. Small difference but worth noting.