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Karma needs more mage power, and less support power.

AFilthyCaitMain··50 votes·1,976 views

Karma has been constantly good in pro play, but she isnt allowed to be any better in solo q because of pro play. Her E is way too good and it, in my opinion, is whats holding her back from ever trying anything on her. Heres a few suggestions I have.

#Nerf her E way more and put more power into the rest of her kit

This one is simple, Just make Karmas E like Lux's W, so that the shielding is meh, while being allowed to have more power in her other abilities.

#Have a mini rework on her E

Karmas E is, yet again one of the main reason shes held back from being buffed. If you make her E more of a mage ability, then youll be able to change her kit to your liking and not have to worry about her E becoming oppressive.

#Conclusion

Karma's E is a major pain point in Karma's kit. Shell need something done about it if she wants to get out of this awkward spot that shes in right now. SHe currently has a 45% winrate in Plat+ (op.gg), and thats not good. Her play rate is also dropping, which is even more alarming considering her winrate. Shes being held back by her E, and probably being a support, which she was not meant to be. Something desperately needs to be done about Karma before shes just dumpstered and left in the trash.

53 Comments

IxtaliKing16 votes

If I were to try fixing her for both mid and support, I would:

  • Revert her passive

Mantra CD refund - Spell hit 2/2.5/3 seconds at levels 1/7/13 > 2 seconds at all ranks. Basic attack 1 second at all ranks.

Karma should have to commit to a fight fully if she wants her Mantra back quickly. I think being able to get massive CD refunds just for hitting a couple champs with a Q is a big part of what made her oppressive. She could have super high uptime on R, without really having to work for it.

  • Make RQ a ground targeted projectile (like Lux E)

The current RQ cast paradigm is an Artillery type, which isn't something Karma should have imo. This change would allow RQ to be more reliable at closer ranges and less so at max range, as opposed to what we have now which is the opposite. It would help her to wave clear better in mid, and could be used to control enemy movement as a support. Might need to tweak the values a bit, slightly less damage early

  • Revert W AP ratio and restore RW damage component

Imo RWs extra root is just an unnecessary waste of her power budget. The removal of RWs damage component helped confuse Karma's build path, and created the whole mantra specific build nonsense we have. Karma was reworked with AP being her core stat in mind, and that's how should be most optimal. Not building HP for RW, AP for RQ and Utility for RE.

  • Flat heal with a smaller missing hp component

Make the heal a little more useful on AP builds, reinforce AP as her core stat.

  • Increase W ticks

Reward players for committing to a fight. Would make her W feel less like a point and click LB snare if it dealt damage in 0.5s intervals.

  • 1.5s root at all ranks on W/RW

Single target lock down isn't a necessary strength for Karma imo.

  • Allow RW to be casted on allies with a 4s duration

I think it would be cool and quite thematically fitting if Karma could donate her self heal to an ally. This could be a cool opportunity to reintroduce her tether clothesline, maybe enemies who touch the tether could be slowed and take half the total damage of the enemy cast upfront.

  • Bring back shieldbomb

Give the AoE portion of the ability a brief delay, or give RE a travel time from Karma to her target.

Big Lincoln6 votes

doesn't her RQ do enough damage fam, being 100-30'd by that BS hitbox is silly

make her E worse but her RE way better at least. i'm pretty sure that's how it used to work?

Catastrop11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AOL9MLgE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-08T01:22:15.428+0000)

doesn't her RQ do enough damage fam, being 100-30'd by that BS hitbox is silly

make her E worse but her RE way better at least. i'm pretty sure that's how it used to work?

The only reason it's allowed to do so much damage is because it's her only real source of damage to begin with. If she was allowed to have damage else where, the RQ would definitely be nerfed to compensate.

Zone of Endless5 votes

I don't want more power into her RQ. That shit hurts level 1.

Witch of Babylon5 votes

Can her shield do damage again pls

Winterkill5 votes

It's a shame but these Developers care about Lablanc, Ezreal, and Aattox more. As long as Ricklessabandon is allowed to work on champions and ruin them, Karma will never get work done on her. This Development Team doesn't care. They didn't care when others and myself told them four years ago not to do what they did. They just don't care. I am looking forward to another Aatrox and Lablanc rework they hahe planned. They care so much about these champions not once but twice.

IxtaliKing3 votes

Currently they are working on Aatrox, LB and Azir. All those champs definitely need work done, to be fair. If there's any justice at Riot HQ, Karma would be added to the list... very wishful thinking though, knowing Riot's record with Karma.

Swarovsko2 votes

I swear when I saw Meddler saying shit like "Ezreal has a low win rate maybe we'll do some work on his W" I fucking lost it. 4 years of people complaining about Karma and she has been in a shitty spot for 4 years and when Ezreal's win rate drop they fix him as soon as they can. This bullshit needs to stop.

FilDaFunk4 votes

Her shield always was a big part of her kit. In solo lanes, she uses it in trades, in duo, well, it's a shield.

chipndip14 votes

Here's the thing you guys don't get: If it weren't for Karma's E, Karma would be utter shit given her current move set.

Karma, as a champion, is strongest in the early game. Before they made her have this aoe team fight shield, Karma was useless. Basically "Lux, but worse" because no matter what you did in lane, your significance in fights boiled down to R+Q. You could say "But muh W", but the activation range for the tether, as well as the tether itself, isn't long, so Karma's W didn't make for a strong team fight tool more than it was a decent 1v1 tool for tankier Karma builds. When later stages of the game hit, Karma didn't have a proper fallback plan as a champion. It's like Pantheon, but since she wasn't even as strong as Pantheon was early, she was just actually lousy.

Then Riot had the idea to buff her supporting. Now she's useful. Supports don't need to worry about being strong mid-late game champs. They just need to get their marksman rolling early and do their specified job in team fights. Buffing Karma's shield gave Karma a proper fallback plan for when she falls off, which is to shield her team and blast them into fights with that movement speed. Karma's fallback plan actually carves out a niche for Karma and gives her something to do in the game besides being "Worse Lux", if we're being honest here.

alekzu1 votes

And here is the thing you don't get: if people cry about shieldbomb then that was the teamfight tool and not your RQ which you would spam 24/7 in lane like you do right now. Why RW in lane? You still lose trade because lol we have so many dmg tools to follow after 1 sec extra root. A colliding Q! Shieldbomb did 800 aoe dmg meanwhile 250 aoe RQ...lol. But hey lets make a champ from lux 2.0 into sivir 2.0 with locket as it will fix all problems. Now her shields are nerfed into sivir 2.0 without locket and we have 45% win rates so we can already call her useless.

chipndip12 votes

I mean, I guess she's worse now? The point of nerfing her shields was because she can build Athene's, which buffs it back up. They just sorta fucked up on the execution of that balancing act.

Regardless, I imagine people want a VGU or something more than they want band-aids to her kit. I was simply explaining the initial reasoning for Riot's actions, which people like to skim over.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Chipndip1, If you have time, would you mind critiquing my rework proposal above? Would really appreciate your thoughts in particular.

chipndip11 votes

Why me in particular?

IxtaliKing1 votes

Because you believe supports should be less binary, as do I. Baring in mind Karma has historically always had the bare bones of a Battlemage/Enchanter hybrid, and recently she's moved away from that unique space into generic Enchanter territory. I'm just curious to know your opinion on my proposed direction for Karma, bringing her back in line with what she was.

Limrick4 votes

Trust me, Lux W feels like shit to use, you don't want to do that to anyone.

tacofacefart3 votes

You should mention something about yasuo in this post so more people will read it. I think you have reasonable points though.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

why not just bring back old karma

B5YorickMain3 votes

Tf is this post. Karma is a support mage, so it should have support abilities and magic abilities. right?

If you want to play a magic champion, then play a magic champion. Not a support magic.

Lmao these threads are honestly trash

BakedLotion8 votes

{quoted}

Tf is this post. Karma is a support mage, so it should have support abilities and magic abilities. right?

If you want to play a magic champion, then play a magic champion. Not a support magic.

Lmao these threads are honestly trash

She was supposed to be designed for mid lane I'm pretty sure that's what these people are trying to do. Make her a mid laner

B5YorickMain1 votes

{quoted}

She was supposed to be designed for mid lane I'm pretty sure that's what these people are trying to do. Make her a mid laner

So if I click support mage in the shop is karma not going to show up?

I honestly think that she is a support but people like to play her mid lane cause she has a lot of damage in her kit. But she is meant to be supporting in the bot lane

So my point stays if you want to play a full AP champion play someone like veiger.

Thanks

alekzu3 votes

Karma is not a support mage. She is a battle mage. Problem is riot try to shove her into support role where she doesn't belong. And she was, is and maybe will be for a very long time, just like zyra, to the point where people like you will just accept her as support and nothing more when she shouldn't be. Look at all zyra players and tell me that at least 80% or even more don't play her supp. Now they can't change her back to mid lane because she will lose more than half her player base and that is just injustice. Same could be said about bot lane karma. But hey...who cared about mid lane karma players when she had her mini-rework and became from battle mage into "enchantress"? Same could be said about morgana. What about orianna and lux? They also have shields but people don't refer to them as support mages. People just want karma to be a mid laner. I don't see what the problem here is.

BakedLotion3 votes

{quoted}

So if I click support mage in the shop is karma not going to show up?

I honestly think that she is a support but people like to play her mid lane cause she has a lot of damage in her kit. But she is meant to be supporting in the bot lane

So my point stays if you want to play a full AP champion play someone like veiger.

Thanks

But I just said she was meant to be a mid laner??? Riot said it themselves

And what does being a full ap champion have to do with a lane? Support/mage hybrids can go mid lol...

Maddened King 3 votes

No? Karma is a support mage, not a damage dealer. Nerfing her E, even more, would kill her as her damage is very inconsistent.

Darkdemon6532 votes

Reduce radius of R'd E. Allow R'd W to be cast on a second target for no cost.

leaguewut2 votes

I'd be a huge fan if Karma's self-E allowed her to gain Q power against whoever breaks the shield or some fun buff like that, literally fits her name and would up her dueling power.

Bârd2 votes

If you want to make Karma a proper mage, you have to move power away from Q/W, but give her back the shield bomb from way back when.

Clementine2 votes

Why? There are so many mid laners and so few supports.

IxtaliKing5 votes

All that means is that Riot needs to make new supports. They never should have forced Karma so hard down the support path in the 1st place. Also, if Riot were to address her actual issues, she'd be both a better mage AND support.

Clementine1 votes

Riot hates supports and rarely make news ones, soooo

IxtaliKing1 votes

Still doesn't make it okay to destroy mages into supports though

Clementine1 votes

Why is a mage becoming a support a bad thing? Then Brand/Zyra/Karma all need to be changed?

IxtaliKing4 votes

A mage becoming a support is only bad thing when becoming a support is taking away from its primary role. Vel'Koz is good bot, but he's also still good mid. Same with Morgana.

Brand is fine, Zyra needs work to get her back into mid and Karma definitely needs work.

Not sure if you've seen my suggestion above, but I'm in favour of Karma getting new supportive tools as long as they are unique to her. I'm just tired of seeing her balanced like Lulu and Janna. Her solo laning has suffered massively for her to fit into an already populated play space. That can't be fair, surely?

chipndip11 votes

Karma's solo lane has been garbage since I started playing two years ago. She falls off too hard to take up a solo lane spot.

IxtaliKing3 votes

If you started playing 2 years ago then you may not have been around when all Mantras gave damage. She was far from garbage, she was a good anti-assassin pick who synergised well with melee carries. She became garbage when they put through the 5.10 changes, and they had to buff her up quite a bit to be relevant.

chipndip12 votes

Riot doesn't make new supports because the players don't like to support. I mean, Riot's been trying on that front for a hot minute, now, but still.

Honestly, I think the next issue to tackle are the actual kits. Many older support kits are really binary. Blitz? Live and die by Q. Sona? Same button. Soraka? W. Janna? E. Lulu? Also E, or Q early and E later. Supports need to be more like Nami, Rakan, and Thresh and less generally binary in play styles.

Clementine2 votes

Plenty of champions are binary. Not every one of them can be as overloaded as Thresh.

And Lulu relies on her E? How??

Janna doesn't rely on her E either. It's her main tool in lane sure by her ult, passive, and Q tend to be more useful later. Every part of Sona's kit is used often and good too.

chipndip11 votes

I'm honestly not going to waste the time to go through this. Have a good one and keep telling yourself that.

Clementine1 votes

Because you're wrong?

chipndip12 votes

Because then I'd have to burn the energy to explain how older supports have very static bread and butter play styles with little counter play (older enchanters) or front loaded rewards (Blitz/Leona). Instead of going through that effort, I'm hoping you'll take a step back to look at the champions and just realize that fact yourself because I ultimately believe in your ability to do so.

Clementine1 votes

So how does Lulu rely on her E?

xxxMadLionxxx1 votes

I once got bored of my usual main and decided to try ap Karma mid. The result was no matter how I tried, I just always seemed to be in a situation where RE seemed like the best option even tho I wanted to kill ppl.

She just plays as a support even with full ap

YFisfabulousBRUH1 votes

Mastery 6 Karma here and im all for nerfing her E and getting more damage off. It would mean i would stop auto-losing to kat everytime she hits lvl 6.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Why do people want the shieldbomb. Theres no reason to have offense and defense on the same ability.

LightIsMyPath7 votes

Because it becomes an ability that can be used defensively but becomes more rewarding when used aggressively? As an Ahri main (assuming you are one from your name) you should be more familiar then anyone else with the concept.. You can burn your r to run but it's best used if you can use it applying its damage and even better if you can apply the damage AND use the dash to avoid incoming damage simultaneously. To an extent the same applies to her q with the mov speed bonus. Same thing is present in Ori E travel. It opens up various scenario of spell effectiveness that makes the ability more interesting than "you are in trouble? Press this button and avoid some damage". Also look at other shielding champions: Janna gives ad and lulu gives pix damage, thus adding value to the decision about when, where and on who the shield is best used. Karma is the only one with her shield giving only defensive tools of the dedicated shielders , basically almost all the time you simply use it on the guy who's about to take damage, later on you just don't even bother thinking and simply press RE giving it to everyone since RW does nothing outside of 1vs1 and RQ damage is laughable unless full AP ...

NineTailedMystic1 votes

But you cant really fuck up the defensive component of a shield. If they go on you they either waste damage on the shield or give you time to get free damage on them while they disengage or wait out the shield.

In Ahri's case you can use the ability offensively or defensively but often not both. In the shields case you can do both.

LightIsMyPath2 votes

How not both? Someone throws a skillshot at you, you dash avoiding the skillshot in their face applying the damage. You used both components optimally and got rewarded for it. Of course the defensive value of the shield must be lower to allow it to have damage, maybe the ability would even be weaker overall but it would be more fun and using it correctly would feel more rewarding

NineTailedMystic2 votes

I see dashing to avoid a skillshot while applying the damage an offensive use of the ability. Because you dashed within 600 units of them to get the damage off while likely using the rest of your kit for damage.

Meanwhile the shield is still good at just eating damage that you cant really fuck up at using. Bonus points if you nuke them with the massive damage from the bomb too.

LightIsMyPath3 votes

Well the dash is still just as good at avoiding skillshot, bonus points if you hit them with the spirit rush. Imagine if damage got removed from spirit rush and placed onto orb of deception. Wouldn't spirit rush become more boring to use, despite the effectiveness of the champion overall may even increase (more aoe damage)? Ps: No idea who's downvoting you since we are having a nice discussion, state restored

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Well if i dash only to avoid something thats a defensive use. If i get damage on them its an offensive use. Imo anyways.

Well sometimes interesting things arent healthy or balanced. If Ahri R did no damage itd be pretty worthless and not worth ranking up past level 6 imo. Besides idk the numbers right now but wasnt the damage on the shield ridiculous? Like full ap RQ ridiculous?

My main gripe here is that its still a shield regardless if you get the damage off. You run at them with it up and they either waste damage on it or use something to disengage. Its a matter of offense "and" defense not offense "or" defense and people already complain about mobility having that "or" component.

Also idk. Probably because I'm "wrong" even though this is mostly opinionated.

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