Why are you nerfing Morello and not buffing Athene's?

darkdill·Dec 18, 2014·36 votes·4,810 views

Isn't Athene's supposed to be the go-to mana-regen item for mages? So why is its base mana regen bonus worse than a Morello when the Mana Font passive doesn't work well if your max mana is below 1.5k?

While I'm not against the price increase on Morello, raising the price of Morellonomicon isn't going to change the whole "two Morellos" build. You need to make the Grail a more appealing purchase.

Change suggested: Increase the bonus to base mana regen on the Grail to 75-100% from 50%.

There, Grail is better at mana regen than a Morello without you needing over 1.5k maximum mana.

EDIT: An alternative could be to change Mana Font like how Warmog's Armor was changed. I.E., when out of combat for, say 10 seconds, you restore twice as much missing mana every 5 seconds.

85 Comments

DurzakaDec 18, 201424 votes

Because they dont want mana regen to be so fucking simple.

Becoming effectively manaless once you get a single item is stupid and shouldnt exist.

darkdillDec 18, 201414 votes

Even the double Morello build doesn't make you manaless. It's just that it outperforms the Morello+Grail build for a cheaper price.

HayaishiDec 18, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Even the double Morello build doesn't make you manaless. It's just that it outperforms the Morello+Grail build for a cheaper price.

lol i can tell you haven't used it.

darkdillDec 18, 201412 votes

I've used it. It was better on me as Lux than a Morello/Grail combination.

JunkοDec 19, 20142 votes

You do realize double morello makes you pay 1k gold for a passive that doesn't stack? So you just wasted 1k of your gold for no reason

Drunk RummateDec 19, 20143 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMxRd6d1,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2014-12-19T16:19:22.101+0000)

You do realize double morello makes you pay 1k gold for a passive that doesn't stack? So you just wasted 1k of your gold for no reason

I seriously disagree with your evaluation that grievous wounds is worth 1k gold. 80 AP and 100% base mana regen and 20% CDR is worth far more than 1100 gold.

JunkοDec 19, 20142 votes

The point is still that you buy a unique passive twice. You don't buy Rabadon twice because it has the highest AP in the game, you buy DFG or Zhonya instead because it gives a new passive for the same amount of base AP. Just like that you can easily get an Athene after Morello to easily get 20% CDR, a ton of mana reg (if anybody did the math it COULD actually be better than 2 Morello on some champions) and some minor MR along with mana return on kill and assists. Or you can buy Mikael if you are a support.

Drunk RummateDec 19, 20143 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMxRd6d1,comment-id=00000000000200000000,timestamp=2014-12-19T17:37:47.991+0000)

The point is still that you buy a unique passive twice. You don't buy Rabadon twice because it has the highest AP in the game, you buy DFG or Zhonya instead because it gives a new passive for the same amount of base AP. Just like that you can easily get an Athene after Morello to easily get 20% CDR, a ton of mana reg (if anybody did the math it COULD actually be better than 2 Morello on some champions) and some minor MR along with mana return on kill and assists. Or you can buy Mikael if you are a support.

That isn't a parallel argument because buying Rabadons a second time offers you no additional stats that couldn't be obtained from another item.

20% CDR and 100% mana regen is a fairly unique attribute across items which makes buying a second morellonomicon a pretty decent choice since you would not be able to obtain those stats from a single different item. If there was another item with 100% mana regen and 20% CDR that offered it's own unique passive then you'd have a decent argument here, but there's not.

JunkοDec 19, 20141 votes

Athene gives 20% CDR, 2% missing mana per sec and regens mana everytime you kill somebody. This makes it a better item than morellonomicon on any champion that will also buy a Tear or Catalyst early like Orianna, Swain, Veigar, etc...

Sightless66Dec 21, 20141 votes

I'm not going to buy a tear or catalyst on either Veigar or Orianna, and if I'm itemizing for that kind of mana regen instead of flat mana on Swain, I'm doing something unbelievably wrong. It is also worth mentioning that none of this means anything for whether or not the item is better than double Morellonomicon.

Athene's gives me less AP than Morellonomicon while being much more expensive. The missing mana per second is not much more valuable than the percentage increase that Morello's gives, particularly for the champions who will actually need the mana regen (anyone who needs to spam and does not itemize for flat mana). In most cases, it offers significantly less than Morellonomicon, and the fact that I'm buying a unique passive twice doesn't matter because it is still much more efficient. The only reason to buy the Athene's and Morello's instead of double Morello's would be the different type of mana regen or the MR, and neither is worth the price differential.

JunkοDec 21, 20141 votes

I don't really know about Ori, i used to see a lot of people get Archangel on her.

But you don't buy Tear on Veigar? Chalice or Double Morellonomicon will do NOTHING to cancel out his stupidly high mana consts early game. Hell 1 combo will make you oom late game.

Also Tear+Chalice is stronger than Double Morellonomicon. For every 100 stacks of Tear, Chalice will regen 2 more mp5, for a combined cost of 1700 gold. Double Morellonomicon costs 4200 gold to increase the mana reg of of most mages by 16 (fully stacked tear + chalice will make you reg 14 + the actual mana reg of tear and chalice)

Sightless66Dec 21, 20141 votes

Tear Ori pops its head up on occasion, but it generally is always outmatched by CDR and mana regen. It's technically an option, but a slightly inferior one.

But you don't buy Tear on Veigar? Chalice or Double Morellonomicon will do NOTHING to cancel out his stupidly high mana consts early game. Hell 1 combo will make you oom late game.

No, 2-4 combos makes you oom late game, and you deal with it. I buy no mana or mana regen on Veigar outside of double Doran's. Most high level Veigar players itemize for as little mana as they can get away with. The tear is way too high of a cost early. The thing about Veigar is that his midgame is very, very snowbally. If he gets ahead, he can be a massive threat. If he can't win lane or get good early ganks, he often ends up just being a walking stun in the game. In addition, because his late game is mitigated so hard by Banshee's, QSS, etc, he is really reliant on that midgame (despite his infinite stacking, his late game really is mediocre unless you get to 50-55+ minutes). Tear doesn't help with this; all it does is give you medicore increased Q farming, but afk Q farming is a good way to lose on Veigar. The solution is clear. Abandon mana measures and go for something that increases your snowball potential. DFG is the answer in 95% of games, followed by Void Staff or Deathcap. Farm Q when you have a blue buff and fight otherwise.

I play a lot of Veigar, and I've pretty much just copied the build from high-level Veigar players. No tear, no chalice, no double-morello's.

The difference between double morello's and tear/chalice is that double morello's gives immediate cost efficiency and power, while also maxing CDR (very important because every point of CDR makes every other point of CDR stronger). It also gives you enough mana to fulfill your needs. I do not need a tear/chalice to fulfill my mana needs. I don't care if it gives more mana regen, because I don't need all that mana regen. The point is that double Morello's gives me more than enough mana. Why would I itemize for more?

FadedpfDec 19, 20146 votes

Meanwhile manaless champions that would get out dueled by mana champions won because a ability was on high cd or you just went oom. Seem fair to you?

DurzakaDec 19, 20143 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile manaless champions that would get out dueled by mana champions won because a ability was on high cd or you just went oom. Seem fair to you?

Yes, because then you reach the mid/late game where you mana doesnt mean anything, meanwhile their energy is heavily gating their ability to counter clear waves, or to assassinate someone.

FFirebranddDec 19, 20141 votes

Yasuo says hi

DurzakaDec 19, 20148 votes

{quoted}

says hi

I cant hear him over that 46% win rate.

FFirebranddDec 19, 20145 votes

I'm not making a comment about how OP or UP he is or what have you... just saying he's a manaless champ who does the exact opposite of falling off. Which is a relevant statement because your earlier comment implied every manaless champ falls off.

I Main SwainDec 19, 20141 votes

I think by manaless he was talking about champs more like Riven Yasuo Tryndamere and Garen

DurzakaDec 19, 20142 votes

{quoted}

I think by manaless he was talking about champs more like and

Yasuo being manaless doesnt even mean anything. His Q is an AA, and his E wouldnt have a real mana cost even if he did use mana.

Garen is hardly viable, and so doesnt warrant discussing.

Tryndamere AAs to deal damage. That is it.

Riven is a separate discussion entirely.

2pudge1cupDec 19, 20141 votes

Ummm... have you seen the manacosts on abilities for new champs?

420 LOL 69Dec 19, 20141 votes

While I agree with the basic idea behind this post, but there are some mages that will completely trash tier without the ability to spam. Basically, any low cd poke mage. Ziggs, Xerath, Vel'Koz, and Lux are all completely unviable without a strong mana regen item.

RebonackDec 19, 20148 votes

The obvious solution is to make is so the two items don't totally overlap with each other.

I vote remove the mana regen from Morello's, change up the build path, and give it a new passive since apparently Riot hates Grievous Wounds now. How about item 3108 + item 3136 and a passive effect that shaves off flat magic resist from targets sorta like a magical version of Cleaver?

That would give the items two totally different niches.

B1naryB0tDec 19, 20143 votes

But the issue with that is the simple fact that AP champs focus on abilities, hence the name. This means they rely on abilities to burst down the enemy. Since abilities are not as spammable as AA's due to CDs, by the time you apply 5 stacks of it, either your target is dead from your burst or you're dead because you're a sitting duck with no abilities (you just used them trying to kill the enemy)

TL;DR: AP champs rely on a few bursts rather than sustained AA's, so your burst will be over and done with by the time you stack that MR shave.

VerandureDec 19, 20142 votes

Or it would end up as a niche item for DoT mages ( Malzahar Cassiopeia Rumble Swain ) or a synergy item with item 3151 (which I wouldn't be against).

RebonackDec 19, 20142 votes

{quoted}

Or it would end up as a niche item for DoT mages ( ) or a synergy item with (which I wouldn't be against).

Eyes of Pain is a named passive, so you would be wasting the base 15 MR penetration. Unless the magic pen suddenly stopped being unique, which might be unwise. I think the whole idea with Eyes of Pain was to prevent too much rampant MR penetration stacking. The suggested remake for Morello's would mean you're giving up the ability to get %current HP shred.

LittleBlastDec 20, 20141 votes

item 3091

Teridax68Dec 19, 20146 votes

Isn't Athene's supposed to be the go-to mana-regen item for mages?

It used to be, and that was its problem: prior to 4.20, buying item 3028 and upgrading to item 3174 meant you didn't really have to worry about mana issues anymore, because those items were designed to provide self-sufficient mana sustain that scaled into the late game. Now that every mana regen item scales, Mana Font has become redundant. The changes were also intended to prevent any single item from eliminating mana problems completely, which is why Grail's sustain can't be buffed to its pre-Preseason 5 strength.

The other big issue here is that there's heavy overlap between AUG and item 3165 : bar the 25 MR / 20 AP difference and Grievous Wounds application, both items effectively fill the exact same stat niche, and so will always be in competition. Until recently, Grail was the winner due to its superior mana sustain, and now that it's been nerfed, Morellonomicon has overtaken it. Buffing Grail would just flip the two around and bring us back to its dominant pre-4.20 state, so that's not really a long-term solution.

serpensortia1Dec 19, 20142 votes

They need to be differentiated. Make Athene's a defensive mana regen item, change build to chalice+kindlegem and replace AP with health. Morello stays an offensive mana regen item. That way tanks can have mana regen too, not just AP

AudiomancyDec 19, 20146 votes

Being able to deal tons of damage without worrying about mana is broken!

ADCs are fine though lol

SammystormDec 19, 20146 votes

the crappy thing is that champions that actually needed and could go oom with such items are in a pretty bad spot atm. IE Anivia.

serpensortia1Dec 19, 20142 votes

All the new champions are either manaless or have much lower mana costs than the older champions. Anivia could easily go oom even with old grail, while newer champions always have near max mana and take a long time to go oom even early game. Make mana a more important resource, instead of a thing people don't pay attention to until they're wondering why they can't use their spells.

A little PeepoDec 19, 20143 votes

I wish that flask would build into RoA and allow u to have a real active on RoA and passive at lvl 18 and lower the time frame it takes for the item to fully stack. I think RoA died because athenes took care of the mana problem and squishy problem. I miss it when used to go RoA as a standard build but now u rarely see it :(

bHNjYxWpWqDec 19, 20141 votes

If Riot ever makes item 2041 build into item 3010 , to build into item 3027 , and I'm allowed to still use the active, I'd throw a party on Anivia . I still build item 3174 on Anivia , whenever I'm not opting for item 3040 in a certain matchup, because Anivia just needs the sustain and is always running out of mana even with /, , and blue buff. And it's not always worth building the mana regeneration item you don't opt for unless you're never getting blue buff or you need item 3165 for its debuff, but then you're missing out on, arguably, a more important AP item or defensive item slot. Anyway, item 2041 would just make life easier, especially if you start over item 1056 , item 1004 , or item 1029 , and don't end up having to sell it later to be able to have 6 items.

Also, would item 2041 building into item 3057 be a horrible idea? Because some AD melee champions like to build it and most that do go item 3078 ; it would feel awkward having it only build into item 3027 . Or make an AD version of for to build into instead? I mean, I'd assume only a very minute portion of AD champions would sacrifice an item slot for it, just as not a lot of AP champions opt for , but I'm not sure?

A little PeepoDec 24, 20141 votes

First of all why would flask build into sheen? Flask and catalyst both have sustain so it would make some sense that they build into that item. Flask building into sheen is irrelevant since there are no similarities to those items, neither does trinity force. Where as RoA heals ur mana and health every time you level and there are more similarities to them. Point being, RoA doesn't really have a passive after level 18 and the passive can only be activated when you level which kind of sucks if ur a full health! Would be nice if you could control it and gained a charge every level like flask works.

[{quoted}](name=420 Jayce It,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMxRd6d1,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-19T14:32:17.853+0000)

If Riot ever makes build into , to build into , and I'm allowed to still use the active, I'd throw a party on . I still build on , whenever I'm not opting for in a certain matchup, because just needs the sustain and is always running out of mana even with /, , and blue buff. And it's not always worth building the mana regeneration item you don't opt for unless you're never getting blue buff or you need for its debuff, but then you're missing out on, arguably, a more important AP item or defensive item slot. Anyway, would just make life easier, especially if you start over , , or , and don't end up having to sell it later to be able to have 6 items.

Also, would building into be a horrible idea? Because some AD melee champions like to build it and most that do go ; it would feel awkward having it only build into . Or make an AD version of for to build into instead? I mean, I'd assume only a very minute portion of AD champions would sacrifice an item slot for it, just as not a lot of AP champions opt for , but I'm not sure?

Hyrum GraffDec 19, 20141 votes

I completely disagree.

Get a tear and an Athenes, and you've got a TON of mana regen. More than S4, in my experience.

SammystormDec 19, 20143 votes

but tear in particular is not that great. It takes so long to charge that you really sacrifice your mid and early game for a better late game. When you as a champion have to build mana regen to stay relevant other champs only have to build a mana item or can start building damage you will have to pay super passive. Anivia for example does not really win any lane. She can make it a farm fest then win late because she is a queen at csing. Making her get a tear early makes that problem even worse.

CindikleDec 19, 20145 votes

How about returning the MR Grail used to have?

Having both compete over the Mp5 king title is the wrong way to go. They both work differently in their mana returns. Nothing wrong with that. It used to be considered strong because it gave 40 MR on top of everything else.

darkdillDec 19, 20142 votes

That would be a good alternative.

metaworldpeace10Dec 19, 20143 votes

Because when Athenes was strong, it was WAAYYY overbearing. When pros were rushing chalice vs an ad mid like Zed, Talon you know there is something fundamentally broken with the item. No I do not want to ever see the Ziggs, Xerath, Syndra, Nidalee and Orianna mid lane meta ever. I've never been so bored playing league in my life.

darkdillDec 19, 20147 votes

Umm, I'm not asking to buff Chalice. I'm asking to buff GRAIL, the completed one that costs 1700 extra gold.

RatbertDec 19, 20142 votes

athene's is the completed one did I miss the name change?

CaeziumDec 19, 20144 votes

Athene's Unholy Grail.

So both "Athene's" or "Grail" works.

Chalice of Harmony is the incomplete one that builds into Athene's Unholy Grail.

RatbertDec 19, 20141 votes

I see. Why did I get so many downvotes because I didn't know an item's full name?

SaiannaDec 19, 20143 votes

They could make grail (Athene) bit more appealing by: slightly increasing mr or base mana regen to 75% (rest the same) or reducing grails price by tiny bit (Athenes price unafected).

(Fyi 25% mana buff is ridiculously low. This won't break the game nor create imba item.)

RedTrinketGoneHaDec 19, 20143 votes

Because Morello has been ruining this game with his balance decisions ever since it came out so they are gonna nerf him, Athene on the other hand he needs some help to get out of Diamond 1, so they are buffing him.

Chaotic ReksDec 18, 20141 votes

um grail already gives you 2% of your missing mana...

RatbertDec 19, 20141 votes

item 3070 I feel like so few people care about this it's only seen when describing sad things. It's only always the worse of the three because of ryze.

Penguin EclipseDec 19, 20144 votes

{quoted}

I feel like so few people care about this it's only seen when describing sad things. It's only always the worse of the three because of ryze.

I personally find the tear to Seraph's build path ridiculously expensive. I'd still consider it if I could get decent CDR from something since Seraph's doesn't supply any.

SammystormDec 19, 20143 votes

not only is it expensive it handicaps your early and mid game.

serpensortia1Dec 19, 20143 votes

Tear barely gives any regen, and it only gives mana after you stack it. It is pretty useless unless you want a lot of mana and can spam skills to stack it. Mana regen is better for staying out of base longer, because even with a high mana pool, you will eventually run out and have to back. High regen allows you to wait for mana while still being in lane to last hit with autos, letting you get more gold and xp.