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Please revert Taliyah.

Wild Geese··55 votes·15,681 views

This was one of my favorite champions, I considered maining her and was starting to, then Riot nerfed her mana and HP really bad, and kept messing around with her threaded volley... Then the 8.11 changes hit and completely remade her.

She couldn't wave clear very good anymore so she wasn't a good mid. However, there was upsides, Her new Q could jungle (But I am not a Jungle player), and her new passive mechanics had awesome synergy with celerity. But even trying to jungle her - celerity gets nerfed for the jungle, then the Q gets nerfed for the jungle.

What are we left with? A really subpar midlaner I guess. I hear she can support OK? Oh boy I guess it's time to learn support. Maybe they can nerf Taliyah support next and she can be a toplaner!?

But overall I'd just think, these changes were a disaster. 8.11 (the worst patch of the year according to the 200IQ reddit btw!) THE PROBLEMS WITH HER 8.11 CHANGES>

  1. Did not accomplish what it set out to do: making her easier at low ranks, making her less powerful in pro play. Actually it felt like it did the opposite.
  2. Her old Q felt GOOD. the AOE splash, the movespeed while you used it!! The new Q is bland. The mana refund is uninspired.
  3. Jungle Taliyah was actually a neat thing, but Riot doesn't like it so they killed it, leaving her without a home.
  4. Riot wanting her so bad to be a midlaner while all her changes focused on reducing her lane priority just DOESN'T WORK. Especially with Taliyah who is a roaming champion.

Taliyah Please return her to pre 8-11 mechanics. Mess with stats as you like. Your little rework failed Riot, just like a lot of things in 2018 sorry!

46 Comments

PhantomSpirit10113 votes

Saying as if Riot's ego will allow them to revert something until it has become a problem for 2 years.

bluegolisano9 votes

Saying as if Riot cares about champions that aren't played seriously by anyone.

Mordekaiser

HeartPalpitation6 votes

{quoted}

Saying as if Riot's ego will allow them to revert something until it has become a problem for 2 years.

Leblanc

KyojiTakajo3 votes

{quoted}

Saying as if Riot's ego will allow them to revert something until it has become a problem for 2 years.

Karma

PhantomSpirit1015 votes

If only they gave her even 3% of the care they give to their golden children Ezreal Yasuo etc.

They also going to push through on a half assed mini-rework that many people disagreed with and argued against but hey, this is Karma and Riot don't give 2 sh*ts about her.

Espy Psyche1 votes

KogMaw Leblanc ?

I PT I7 votes

Honestly I would love for them to revert her, but the only part that may not come back is the AoE Q, and I can see why they removed it (Perma-shoving lane and roaming in the early levels - very interactive).

I think she's just fine and not exceptional (like around B tier in every role she's played in), but I still play her regardless because I love the champ. However I do agree her waveclear leaves more to be desired and it sucks at times you have to use your full rotation to just shove in a wave which eats through your mana really fast.

I'd like to see a small buff for her mid lane, but seeing how pros like to (ab)use her when she's strong she'll most likely get the shaft later on from riot anyways :/

Meany Sting4 votes

Im sorry but using a full rotation to clear a wave fully is all ready good. Ziggs needs a full rotation, zed needs a full rotation, oriana before getting AP needs more then 1 rotation, so does almost every single mid with some exceptions lika malzahar who can just clear wave with 2 spells but it can be stoped by enemy laner if malzahars voidlings are killed. Why should talyah be an exception. What I see as problem is her high nama costs. Nothing else.

I PT I2 votes

That's what I wanted to point out as the main problem. A full rotation eats through your mana so deeply it hurts just to shove in a wave

Meany Sting1 votes

Which I can agree to, and lowering her mana costs is a reasonable thing. I just feel that people are forgetting that pushing a wave in should cost either mana or long cool down or both. You aren't supposed to get roaming with no thing to pay for it.

CudyDarkyz5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Meany Sting,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMXWImvp,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-01-01T19:44:22.373+0000)

Im sorry but using a full rotation to clear a wave fully is all ready good. Ziggs needs a full rotation, zed needs a full rotation, oriana before getting AP needs more then 1 rotation, so does almost every single mid with some exceptions lika malzahar who can just clear wave with 2 spells but it can be stoped by enemy laner if malzahars voidlings are killed. Why should talyah be an exception. What I see as problem is her high nama costs. Nothing else.

I saw it as her thing personally. Like Ziggs thing is shoving and killing towers really fast. Why does ziggs get a 35% execute to towers on a spell? No other champion has that. It's because ziggs is the siege champion.

Taliyah's thing was a roaming mage to me. She was supposed to control the mid wave so that she was able to do her roaming, because that was her thing. Taliyah was a early game influence, going to other lanes to get team mates ahead because of how hard she falls off late game.

She used to have a winrate of 52% if a game ended at 20-25 mins but also had a winrate of 42% when a game was 30-35 mins. Now taliyah is a burst mage the goes around trying to oneshot people but almost every other burst mage does it better at this point.

Its how she is the 8th least picked champion in the game combining all of her roles, and the least pick midlaner in the game. "that has a pick something like ivern mid is at a 0% so it wont show up"

Meany Sting1 votes

She can still do that, her current problem is that shoving a wave in with full rotation costs too much mana with her mana costs, which, to I can agree is a problem. But that's about lowering her mana costs, and not reverting her. She is actually viable champion, but too high mana costs don't allow you to roam as much as you should be able to

Emo Twink6 votes

on the bright side, her autos feel nice enough to take her ADC

Noor Sakata5 votes

Yes :(

Monstermushmush5 votes

Yeah, she belongs nowhere now. It's sad, really.

TisBis3 votes

I just got M7 on her playing her mid

Monstermushmush1 votes

{quoted}

I just got M7 on her playing her mid

Before her rework.

TisBis1 votes

no?

Monstermushmush1 votes

{quoted}

no?

Oh, well that's good for you. You made her work mid. I can't, unfortunately.

14daysuspensionk5 votes

https://youtu.be/p29u9EkfNIc

Saevum2 votes

I like how the kid represents Riot and that mindless stick the Balance Team. Simply brilliant.

Revert Taliyah Q4 votes

I used to main her, but after the rework... I just cant. She was legit my favorite champ in the game, and it felt super awesome to main a unique champion. Riot. What have you done with my girl.

destroyer227194 votes

I played taliyah jungle after her recent "changes", HOLY SHIT I ALMOST DIED TO GROMP. LIterally Taliyah support is the only thing I find viable. Taliyah mid wave clear too trash and jungle don't get me started.

Arcane Blue Boi3 votes

Why even get attached to a champion if riot is gonna change its kit -_- I remember when taliyah released and she had sooo low global winrate, but i was winning almost every game I had so much fun A while back i came back to league just to find that the Q was no longer AoE, which ruined my style of play completely. I tried her, but i cant play taliyah now.

I wish that for 2019 riot can just stop reworking this and reworking that and rework rework rework rework rework.

jurrrr3 votes

Can you imagine winning worlds, picking Taliyah for the skin you worked all year for then they change your champ before your skin even comes out so its less effective in the role you main.

:/

Lhuhz3 votes

SadCrown.jpg

l MrD l3 votes

i wanna see her reverted back to the the release state where you coulkdnt W E ... she looked weak so they changed it but it only put her into a strong state only then to see nerfs ... not enough time had passed for people to learn her and she was already messed with ....

M00ndanc33 votes

I know the feeling, check out malz's W changes after the mage rework. couldn't go a month with out its entire mechanic being changed

BLIGHTBRINGER3 votes

can we also bring back the VGU Rework Galio back? They basically removed his anti-magic identity, and now supposedly a tanky/bursty one shot champion.

Felvyne2 votes

They should revert the W cast-paradigm to what was when she was released. She had a clear weakness to the E>W combo: do it meaninfully and you get tons of dmg, do it like crazy and you expose yourself to get beaten. With the change just because people complained opened her to have too much reliable dmg that meant the nerf-chain until what she's nowadays.

Tacosrock3 votes

She has way more opportunities to make plays with her new W. I can never understand why people would actually want this to happen.

LordGeovanni2 votes

I think taliyah's wave clear is just fine without aoe. Other mages on the other had need to lose damage for their long range aoe spells and this part goes for talyah too get much more base cooldown on their skills. Mages need to farm with autos early but also have downtimes later in the game that can be exploited. 2 second nuke q is not an exploitable down time. Either this or Mages need to have their damage lowered so much that indiviual casts dont chunk you they would have to land their rotations multiple times for anything to start to hurt and this is what is gonna hurt mage mains more because they like seeing their big numbers and enemy health bars evaporate I think she should have her Q mana cost in worked ground reverted to full cost with 50% refunded so that she can use item 3027 for sustain and so that she can run out of mana so that people can play around it instead of having infinite ammo just because.

Leaf on Bush2 votes

Taliyah was fun on release and I don't know why they had to change her over and over again. I just stopped playing that champion.

SociaI Justice2 votes

we are left with a slightly op jungle mage, well not slightly but only slightly in most elo.

Hong Kong Annie2 votes

I wish they would revert her to her release state and then rebalance her like that instead. There were few things as satisfying as landing a ln E W combo with the old casting, and lockout on W. Plus it was allowed to be stronger because it was way harder to land.

ZaneShadow2 votes

Well, I’d honestly like to see her as a flex between mid and jungle. Perhaps reducing the jungle nerfs would benefit both in this situation? Slightly increasing the damage to the same father from 50% to maybe 67 or 70% might be all it would take?

Alvaer3 votes

The thing is ppl want the Aoe and Ms on Q back and so do i....

Tacosrock2 votes

I’m probably the only one that feels this way but I actually like Taliyah right now. I appreciate how low priority she is now even though she still has an insane amount of damage and roam potential. While her waveclear has been reduced to smithereens, I can still pull her off mid while also performing well in jungle and support. The only thing that I continue to grope about is her absurdly high mana costs; otherwise, if they want to keep her how she is, I can make do. I know that the majority won’t appreciate that but when it comes to Riot, you have to adapt or perish.

Alvaer2 votes

Sadly riot wont care :3 like.... always the only player interactive thing they did with the gameplay was that one illaoi skin xD

JustDonnyy2 votes

I'd love to see some changes or maybe even a rework that'll make her a midlaner again!

Happy Love Pile2 votes

"but Riot didn't like her so they nerfed her"

or she was dominating across every single elo with insane pick and winrates.

Automated Riven1 votes

They need to revert her to her release patch and Nerf the ratios a bit.

Nevrankroaton1 votes

I know people want to hate Riot on this but truth is that her kit was doomed to be a problem in pro-play. any champion that is VERY good at shoving lane early mean having priority which mean working with the jungler to put wards/do invade/secure scuttle.

It mean being allow to deny ANY rotation from the ennemy mid laner if he can't follow the push of the wave. It mean her having absolute control on roaming and ironically, like A.Sol, she roam incredibly well.

Theses champions are doomed to be nerf, it is just too strong in high elo. Be it SoloQ or competitive, any champion shoving lane easily to roam are too powerful in a game like LOL.

And as a jungler, Taliyah was kinda bonkers...

So it isn't a "rework" per say, it is more like Taliyah has a kit that doom her since day1.

Wild Geese1 votes

{quoted}

I know people want to hate Riot on this but truth is that her kit was doomed to be a problem in pro-play. any champion that is VERY good at shoving lane early mean having priority which mean working with the jungler to put wards/do invade/secure scuttle.

It mean being allow to deny ANY rotation from the ennemy mid laner if he can't follow the push of the wave. It mean her having absolute control on roaming and ironically, like A.Sol, she roam incredibly well.

Theses champions are doomed to be nerf, it is just too strong in high elo. Be it SoloQ or competitive, any champion shoving lane easily to roam are too powerful in a game like LOL.

And as a jungler, Taliyah was kinda bonkers...

So it isn't a "rework" per say, it is more like Taliyah has a kit that doom her since day1.

I disagree with Riot's thinking. It's backwards and it's been backwards for years and that's why this game is going to shit.

Taliyah is(mostly WAS) an amazingly designed champion, she has utility and uniqueness. Her design is not inherently flawed. The design of most other champions are flawed.

To give you an example of amazingly designed champions that Riot reworked and fiddled with endlessly, here's a few: Azir, Tahm Kench, Lee Sin, Galio, Irelia, Nidalee.

  • and a few more. just off the top of my head.

Anyway the point is usually if a champion is really good at something they get a rework to make them less good at everything. This is because 90% of the champions in the game lack any true utility and are only powerful due to item shifts or balance patches (Champs like Caitlyn or Karthus who go from useless to useful with one item adjustment).

I think instead of dumpstering utlity champions and destroying their playstyle through "mini-reworks", they should nerf carefully and focus more on giving everybody else better utility. For instance: I love what they did to Xin Zhao, one of the few times a mini-rework did just that!! Just the way I look at it. Taliyah shouldn't be brought down to the level or poor design for others sake.

Nevrankroaton1 votes

I am deeply sorry but I disagree with this view.

Even with the most talent in balance, a game is always influenced by its mechanical core. It isn't that Riot try to destroy unique strength or identity, it is that there is some kind of identity who will ALWAYS, ALWAYS be too efficient to win the way the game work.

If you make a game where the biggest way to win is, for example, to destroy turret before 10 min and you make one champion which design is to destroy quickly, this champion will be top tiers. Even if he has flaws and is unique, this champions has an identity that make him SUPER good and he will be top tiers.

For example, you mention Caitlyn as a champion who lack any true utility, but it is false. Do you know why Caitlyn dominant laning phase is something pros love? Because it give priority, she push wave very fast, she bully people in lane and it make her able to have priority. Which open new things for her jungler and support, for example.

It is like Yorick. Why Riot 'hate' Yorick's ghoul? Because Yorick design, a pet champion, is often one doomed to fail because it is either too easy to handle the pet or be very difficult to deal with. (Ironically, Yorick design with the maiden is more balanced, despite it being a time where yorick smask your face because the maiden is here, than Yorick with its ghouls. Think of it like how Rexxar in HOTS was a good way to make a pet champion but how Riot try too much to give to people the petmancer they want when it often feel like shit and it is better to have like ONE pet to control).

I feel it is way way harder than you think (I apologize if I sound condescending, I know we have both very different views and I am known to not like the gameplay board) to balance such unique identity because it need to be done VERY VERY well or else it is a failure. Think of it the way Morello talked about Soraka as a healer, it is a very hard balance to do to make a balanced pure healer and it is why I think the way Riot made Taliyah was doomed to explode on their face.

To be real with you, I don't pretend to know how to properly balance her right now. I would want her to be lightly revisited on how her working ground work so she can push wave well without being too too good at it. Maybe changing how the single Q on the ground work... Like Q on working ground is a big AOE but does less damage than 5 volley in a row, so you choose between nice damage and good AOE or big damage but single target and need to land all of it.

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