My problem with whining about competitive diversity

chipndip1··10 votes·717 views

Short answer: You guys don't want that. Or at least, not unanimously enough for it to be something Riot can move confidently towards. (just skip the body paragraphs if you don't wanna read them)

Garen : The guy's a juggernaut with the play pattern of a skirmisher. Juggernauts are meant to be tanky, deal damage, and stay in the fight until it's done. To do this, they usually have some means of sustained damage and potent health sustain in their kits. Garen needs to stop and "take a break" to heal, and he's left ineffectively AA'ing whenever his combo's down. Other Darius better jugs Illaoi don't have Trundle this Olaf issue. Obviously he needs some means of staying in a fight over time as well as a tool or two to be useful for in that fight. Doesn't really matter because the notion gets downvote spammed.

Sona : Before the mini-rework went out, Meddler said a peculiar thing about how "When Sona's strong on the higher end of the spectrum, she's oppressive as shit on the lower end". Just a Heimerdinger lil reminiscent of a MasterYi few champs. When the mini-rework went out, Sona was absolutely toxic to deal with, but in competitive she had like a 33% win rate or so before she left the stage again. Now, here's the main aoe team fighting support in the game, and she's somehow less useful for team fighting than Karma and Nami. Why is that? Well, like I was parroting off for months, her base kit is simply outdated. No one wants to be in 550 range of Alistar, and the reason why it works in ranked is because we can't communicate and organize an all-in all that well. In competitive, Sona's passive is semi-suicidal as it puts her in extreme danger. SHE NEEDS RANGE. Karma and Nami can operate from long range, and that safety on a squishy champion is key. Hell, Karma's a semi BATTLE MAGE, and Battle Mages are known for close ranged combat, but somehow Sona's the one with the 550 ranged passive that's integral to her kit. I was saying this for months, and it wasn't just people labeling me as a whiny Sona main that were writing me off. Other Sona mains also did so since they were attached to her ultimately oppressive play pattern (hence nerfing Q outside of Powerchord shots). Ultimately, this was a waste of effort since even Riot said that they weren't looking to put much effort in enchanters/enchantresses for a long while.

Teemo : Any time I bring up how useless this champion is, I get flack from random Teemo users about how he can shroom the damn river. However, the only time this champ showed up in competitive was once as a retweet stretch goal. AS A JOKE. The guy using him fed horribly and his team lost while everyone was laughing and cracking jokes about the match. This champion in his current state is nothing more than a joke, but try to make a thread calling attention to it and no one's ready to admit it.

And this is my problem with people getting upset with competitive diversity in this game. I'd LOVE to see it, but people would rather have older champions be relics of the past than be reworked into something that could be useful in competitive play. Ranked and competitive are two different things, and the main difference is that ranked gives room for a lot more cheesing and winning/losing through communication/coordination failure, hence why Poppy doesn't look all that tough until you see her on that stage, body blocking jumping ancient yordles like a champ, or why people still use AP Shaco in my damn ranked games. That doesn't make that champ/strategy/build legitimately amazing or weak outright more than it means you're just taking advantage of your environment.

Side note: And yeah, there's a few other things I could touch on, but I wanted to touch on this specific aspect in this post. So if you're gonna bring up the fact that "competitive gaming usually stifles diversity", we know. We could still do way better than this though.

15 Comments

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Actually, we do want that. Remember, people aren't asking for only garen to be viable or only heimerdinger to be viable or only yi to be viable. They are asking for everyone to be viable. That means that both garen and his natural counters will be viable. That means that both yi and his natural counters will be viable. The problem with league right now is that because certain archetypes are not allowed to be viable, the champions that they naturally counter become a nightmare to balance and unfun to play against.

Well, let's use Yi for example:

Yi is a skirmisher. Skirmishers are already hard to find in competitive because they're high risk/reward melee carries that dance around in fights, jumping in and out with little more than their kits protecting them, with the ones that are used more often either being kinda Gangplank ranged or kinda strong with Ekko tanky builds. With this foundation laid out, what does Yi do? Scale into the game and AA you to death. That's it. Once Yi gets online, you're borderline done with the minute he lands on someone, assuming he isn't blown up beforehand. There's no window to fight back against his play pattern because he's clicking you dead with high damage + an insanely high and debuff-proof movement speed buff + a blink. So Riot decides "Eh, we'll just lock his power away behind 'time', so if you bend him over a barrel before he puts on his big boy pants, you can have right at him." THIS is the Sona thing Riot does Kayle to champions that they don't Tryndamere really wanna take the time to Warwick balance or rework properly. They just force them into that 40 minute mark, even though they're trying to make the game more dynamic with more reward to people that take initiative to get things done sooner. It's saying "Well, if you wanna win, win before Yi turns on. Otherwise you insta-lose ggnoredonotblameusyouletithappenAMIRIGHTORWHATUPTOPHIGHFIVE!"

Some play patterns need to be adjusted to get along with the times, not gated behind a time barrier.

Look at kassidin, for example. He is a mobile melee champion who destroys ranged champion and unreliable cc but has a lot of problems against reliable point and click cc or melee adc who can outduel him when he jumps on them. In theory, it should not be hard to find him a spot in a moba where he has natural counters. Hell, look at dota's storm spirit, he is essentially kassidin with a ranged attack, far more mobility, and better cc and he has been far less toxic than kassidin has been at his peak because his natural counters are also allowed to be viable in dota. However, because riot refuses to allow certain archetypes to be strong, the champions that naturally counter kassidin are kept artificially weak and kassidin in turn has been a nightmare to balance.

The key for keeping diversity in a moba is to not be afraid of any certain archetype. Mobas allow for a mashup of such an extremely diverse set of champions that every archetype will have multiple natural counters at every level of play. However, keeping certain archetypes weak will only serve to magnify the toxicity of the champions that they naturally counter and make balancing a far harder task than it should.

This is actually touching on another thing, but that needs another long post to properly discuss. I'm glad we're on the same wavelength on that though, although personally since I don't know too much about DotA2 I'd use Pokemon examples. >_>

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Actually, yi is a dedicated melee adc who has to get close to the target in order to do his damage. His natural counters would be tanky champions with aoe disables because he is far more likely to get hit by incidental snares and stuns from aoe spells than his ranged counterpart. He also puts himself into range of essentially the entire enemy team when he dives as therefore is far more succeptable to champions who can juggle invulnerabilities (think kayle) than his ranged counterparts.

Well, we're basically on the same page there.

Melee adc's powers are not gated by any arbitrary time stamp, they are gated by the fact that they have to get into melee range to do all of their dps. However, since riot does not fully explore the melee adc archetype and the stuff that would naturally counter them, they are unnecessarily kept under-powered.

And we're not here. Skirmishers are all pretty much set to be late-game carries, just like how marksmen are meant to be late-game carries. The key difference between one skirmisher or another, however, is that some of them that are more "new" have windows to be taken advantage of. Yasuo loses mobility as he has less targets to use. Fiora has to attack from specific angles to net her damage. GP has to master barrel chains. Ekko's a problem that's hopefully gonna be fixed later. Outside of Ekko, who sort of just landed in that category due to his play pattern not being all that assassin-like like Riot thought it would (similar to Skarner not really being a juggernaut), the more "new" skirmishers do have that strong carry power, but their play pattern leaves openings, and thus they can have tools that allow them to not be too bad early on. Yi's play pattern is either "You got hard cc or you got bodied. All five of you.", and there's very little middle ground given that. How to keep him in line? The match becomes countdown for when Yi can manage to get to that point. If Riot shaved off of Yi's ability to just run 3 people down ez (unless ass blasted by hard cc for 2 seconds), I imagine they could put more power into him elsewhere that'll allow him to not be so feast or famine...because right now Yi's very feast or famine.

I can fill you in about dota. Dota is essentially a moba which has allowed 100+ champions to be viable at pretty much all levels of play including professional level of play. This is achieved because the dota balance team is not afraid of any specific archetype. Instead, they allow every one to be viable in their own sphere. Heroes that would otherwise seem toxic in league become relatively balanced because their natural counters are also allowed to thrive. Their melee adcs are like master yi on crack but they do not feel nearly as oppressive because there are multiple tools to deal with every archetype.

I've heard about how DotA2 does things, and I agree with the direction, but not the degree. The good part about LoL is that people don't feel like they're fucked from champ select. The BAD part about LoL is that exact same notion. Riot has gone too far in that direction, so only the top few picks for each role stand out. This is the other side of things that's stagnating strategic diversity in this game. You can basically just get away with picking the strongest champ since counters are soft at best in this game. There needs to be more polarized match-ups between champs, and to the very least, some picks would find purpose at least by existing to take down strong general picks.

So if you ask me, strategic diversity is being held back by two points in this game:

  • Some champ play patterns aren't all that healthy, but there's not enough commitment to actually fix that issue.

  • The game takes the fighting game approach to balance and not the RPG approach, even though LoL borrows quite a good deal from RPGs, so now we're just spamming the best dudes rather than a smart balance of dudes, given the other team's dudes.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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chipndip11 votes

Kinda wish the general thread was more in this direction so it wouldn't feel like I'm going on a major tangent here.

Well, let's drop the Yi example for a spell since that's...that one's going wilder than I thought it would. Let's go to Garen. With his current kit, I imagine that it'd be possible to make him good enough to appear on the competitive stage. However, due to what type of number changes and all that that he'd need to get there, as much as it'd be a possible move, it wouldn't necessarily be a good one to make. He'd have to be significantly tankier and hit a good deal harder to justify the use in the pro scene, but by then he'll be like he was when the jugs patch first rolled out and the damn bastard would just run through heaven, hell, and the otherverse without slowing down. Hell, even when he was a literal tumbleweed of stats running down mid lane, he still wasn't used in competitive when Darius and Morde were because Darius is basically Garen with 5 dunks instead of 1. If his kit was altered to change his play pattern into one that would be more appreciable on both offense and defense, then he could be tuned for competitive play instead of being a Bronzie-Beater.

Edit: In layman's terms, I'd say the archetypes aren't the problem but the play patterns are. Some of the game's older play patterns need updates, even if they're to remain in their current archetypes/niches.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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chipndip11 votes

I have to disagree there, seeing how Sona recently proved the contrary. Even when she was a pushover in competitive, she was a nightmare in standard play. Some play patterns are just too reliant on general power rather than having a specific game plan with unique strengths and weaknesses, and that's where the disconnect between LoL and DotA2 really begins to form. The older kits tend to lend themselves to this issue more than the newer ones do, though, so the means of balancing them is just making their numbers either X or Y, without much regard to how well off the champ truly is balance-wise.

Now, because this issue isn't so black and white, I have to state: I agree with most of what you're saying. Riot does play it too safe with champ strengths and weaknesses, and they've only scratched the surface of the concept of "A champion who's niche is based on the strengths of other champions". The thread, however, is calling attention to kits that have been left behind by time. Tools that are in need of repair or replacement. It's not that the archetype is bad more than the tools in the kit are old as shit and need updates or new parts altogether. I'm hoping I'm getting that across.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

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chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Sona was a nightmare in standard play specifically because the champions that would shut her down are not viable. Champions like yi would absolutely shred sona. Her playstyle out of all of the supports are the most succeptable to melee adcs. However, since the champions that naturally counter her are not viable, the other team is forced into choosing ranged adcs who sona's kit is designed to destory. The point isn't that certain champions like sona can be balanced in the current enviorment. The point is that they would be very easy to balance if riot would just allow every champion to be viable and let the tools that those champions already have keep others in check.

I can see that being a thing, yeah, but bot lane would be bullied to hell and back in Sona's backpack because that's where all supports and ranged carries go. There should be support match-ups that beat Sona as well as counters from other lanes, but even then, Sona had a HUGE win rate (I mean it's probs because Leona is currently bad right now too but still the point stands). In order for Sona to be viable with her current kit, a ton of large buffs would have to be thrown around all over the joint. I like the notion of champs that win or lose match-ups rather convincingly, encouraging smart team building and in-game strategy, but it still has to be within the scope of the game itself. With that said, Sona's current kit doesn't lend itself to being healthy in the game when strong without throwing the whole game on its head to compensate. Then you rinse and repeat that for a ton of other champs. It'd be crazy. It'd be pre-season 666.

The main disconnect between dota and league is that dota actually allows melee carries, high end split pushers, high disruption aoe heroes, and reliable hard cc to be viable. As a result, there are tools to deal with every archetype without relying on stat checks that league is forced to use. Also, keep in mind that dota champion kits are in general much older than league's kits and built on a more restricted system. Champions like leshrac, troll, lycan, luna, crystal maiden or omniknight had their kits built in 2005 on the old warcraft 3 map editor and yet they feel like they fit in the current game due to proper balancing.

You honestly got me there. +1

League does not need to be afraid to allow its champions to be viable. There is a ton of build in tools that the roster has to keep every other champion in check. However, if riot were to artificially keep those tools unviable, then league gets trapped in an environment where champions such as kassidin, yi, sona, or garen become too hard to balance.

Well, we may disagree on the finer details here and there, but we're on the same page for the most part. Pretty long discussion, but it was one worth having, and I learned a good bit about DotA2. xD

Thanks for that.

Hayaishi21 votes

Everytime Riot wants to rework one of those "useless" champions their mains come out and backlash is so massive Riot just gives up. That is why some of the reworks suck, Riot can't never make too many changes because champion identity or "Morde isn't morde" anymore and all those pathetic complains their mains make.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

another way to put it, a much shorter way,

if competitive only plays whatever is broke as shit and you don't want the game to be balanced around competitive causing the game at your level of play to be broke as shit then a lack of diversity at higher level play is necessary. On the otherhand, the best way to make everything balanced at every level is to make everything the same... exactly the same.

chipndip11 votes

Well, no.

What this thread is saying is that people need to let go of outdated kits and play patterns if they want their favorite champs to be viable in competitive, because the reason why they're held out of that sphere a lot of the time is because their kits would be toxic as hell for standard play if they were even close to viable in competitive, with Sona being the premiere example of that because it just happened.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

If Garen had no downtime he would be broke/pick/ban/cancer with a 1k true damage ultimate.

A lot of super basic-type champions that can't really be fixed out of their kits without destroying the identity of the champion and shoehorning them into competitive champions doesn't usually work, to the point of making them just as binary as before when they keep being redesigned into their still problem-identity. Sona / Soraka / GP have always been somewhat problematic rework champions when it has been done.

chipndip11 votes

It's not that he needs no downtime more than he needs his downtime to be less useless. Darius isn't always dunking shit, but his passive racks up damage and his Q keeps him healthy while he applies it all over the rift. Illaoi has a huge aoe ult, but after that ult she's still slapping shit with her tentacles and stealing souls for her team to wail on, which makes more tentacles, and the tentacles give her health back. Olaf isn't always running in screaming, but he can still chunk axes and slash a bitch even if his ult's down, and his W keeps him healthy. Garen...eh...just sort of AA'ing on people...waiting for his little dunk which is a glorified AA, assuming he can even reach someone. He can't necessarily heal mid-fight, and his damage isn't all that big and explosive unless he's ulting, seeing how he has to hold steady on his enemies while spinning. His big moment's a single-target nuke rather than a party crashing quake, and after that he's kind of a wet noodle. He doesn't even get the benefit of healing mid-fight like basically every other jug in the game. He has OBVIOUS flaws in his kit. People need to be honest before they can be fixed.

I honestly can't make out the rest of what you typed so I won't respond to it.

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