I lost a ranked game because Mountain Dragon sucks.

1 Wing·Jun 17, 2016·3 votes·2,203 views

First dragon was mountain dragon. We got it. "yay?"

But the seconds dragon was botched, and the enemy team got it. Infernal Dragon.

My team never reached a tower to benefit from mountain dragon, in the next 15 minutes.

Eventually, we get in position to take another dragon.

It's another Mountain Dragon.

My jungler, literally won't take it, and walks away. Some of my team, stays, and dies when the enemy team shows up. Then the enemy team pushed directly to my base [they also didn't care about mountain drake], and took the nexus, because of that.

Because of Mountain Dragon.

Mountain dragon is literally not worth 20 gold, unless you already have an advantage in the game. :(

29 Comments

QuephaJun 17, 20165 votes

It's funny because Mountain drake is arguably the strongest.

Critmaster GarenJun 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's funny because Mountain drake is arguably the strongest.

lol. the additional damage from fire drake alone from the ad/ap you get will give you proably as much damage against turrets as the conversion of mountain drake does.

not to mention that it actually helps you get into the position to take them.

QuephaJun 17, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEoBzMlQ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-06-17T00:49:53.143+0000)

lol.

http://www.lolesports.com/en_US/vods/na-lcs/na_2016_summer

In week 1, teams that secured at least 1 mountain drake had the highest winrate (76%) and teams that secured at least 1 infernal drake had the lowest (42%)

So yes, mountain is arguably the most important to secure.

the additional damage from fire drake alone from the ad/ap you get will give you proably as much damage against turrets as the conversion of mountain drake does.

It is completely impossible for that to be the case. an additional 10% true damage based on your pre-mitigation values is dramatically more than 8% of your damage stats could possibly achieve.

not to mention that it actually helps you get into the position to take them.

And that's why it comes down to "arguably"

Communist ToastJun 17, 20161 votes

lol lcs ranks air drake above water though, so...

QuephaJun 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

lol lcs ranks air drake above water though, so...

From the games I looked at, air drake was taken the least often implying that teams valued it the least (order of "value" by this metric would be Infernal, a tie between Mountain and Ocean, with Cloud in last place) and had an even winrate of 50%

Communist ToastJun 17, 20161 votes

the teams value it less, but the spokesman value it high

Critmaster GarenJun 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

http://www.lolesports.com/en_US/vods/na-lcs/na_2016_summer

In week 1, teams that secured at least 1 mountain drake had the highest winrate (76%) and teams that secured at least 1 infernal drake had the lowest (42%)

So yes, mountain is arguably the most important to secure.

It is completely impossible for that to be the case. an additional 10% true damage based on your pre-mitigation values is dramatically more than 8% of your damage stats could possibly achieve.

And that's why it comes down to "arguably"

this winrate is skewed imo and useless on its own.

if teams are only going for mountain drakes, when theyre already massively ahead and can take it without any disadvantage (like 1 guy on the team solos it), but the drake is otherwise barely contested, youll get a very high winrate out of it.

actual numbers on how much these drakes are contested by both teams compared to each other would be more useful than winrate statistics.

QuephaJun 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEoBzMlQ,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-17T14:47:37.339+0000)

this winrate is skewed imo and useless on its own.

if teams are only going for mountain drakes, when theyre already massively ahead and can take it without any disadvantage (like 1 guy on the team solos it), but the drake is otherwise barely contested, youll get a very high winrate out of it.

actual numbers on how much these drakes are contested by both teams compared to each other would be more useful than winrate statistics.

Closing out a winning game before the enemy can take away your advantage has a lot of value. It definitely looks like players are undervaluing Mountain drake because it allows for a lucky pick to snowball into way more objectives and overvaluing Infernal because it only really benefits adcs with much less damage being added to mages and almost none at all added to tanks and bruisers.

DeathBurstJun 17, 20161 votes

10% bonus True damage (so even more than a 10% increase in your damage output, since your base damage is not True and reduced by the Tower/Drake Armor and MR) is definitely more than +8% AD/AP.

Critmaster GarenJun 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

10% bonus True damage (so even more than a 10% increase in your damage output, since your base damage is not True and reduced by the Tower/Drake Armor and MR) is definitely more than +8% AD/AP.

its not bonus true damage. its part of the damage youre already dealing converted to true damage.

so its not actually a full 10% damage increase. depending on how much armor pen you have, its much less.

jr deputy meowJun 17, 20161 votes

you're wrong - it's bonus damage.

Critmaster GarenJun 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=jr deputy meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEoBzMlQ,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-17T14:48:23.336+0000)

you're wrong - it's bonus damage.

i stand corrected.

it still doesnt change that the drake is only generally useful if youre already on the winning side. and even in that case many teams still make the mistake of putting too much value in it.

rift herald is still more important than earth drake, so is taking a turret if you can.

that global gold you get out of a turret doesnt just get you more items, which also helps you taking turrets and objectives faster, but also helps you snowball and win more fights.

always go for a turret if you can. that drake is secondary.

DeathBurstJun 17, 20161 votes

That same argument about being less important than a turret and global gold or Rift Herald can be applied to Infernal Drake as well. And going back to the OP, no the Mountain Drake doesn't suck.

It's not only useful if you are ahead, but also if you want to splitpush, which is a great coming back strategy (especially with Garen).

Guyy FieriJun 17, 20161 votes

Actually it is. Let's say you are an ADC with 300 AD. You won't be dealing 300 damage to turrets since turrets have armor. So let's say each auto does 250. With mountain drake every auto does ten percent pre mitigation true damage. So it takes your base AD (300) multiplied by .1 (30) and that's your addidotional damage per attack in true damage against towers, figuring that this damage gets to ignore the armor of towers it's actually more than a 10% increase

RandomoniumJun 17, 20164 votes

The Drake isn't the issue, it's you and your team.

lccarusJun 17, 20162 votes

Yes it is. Split pushing, sieging, if you and your team can't hit an objective in 15 minutes time they drake isn't the issue.

Critmaster GarenJun 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes it is. Split pushing, sieging, if you and your team can't hit an objective in 15 minutes time they drake isn't the issue.

its not that big.

it only converts a small portion of your damage into true damage against turrets and jungle camps. its not actually a noticable increase.

ocean drake can be worth something for the mana/health regen. infernal drake directly converts to a gold advantage.

wind and mountain drake are useless unless you get like 3 of them. and when youre in such an advantageous position to take that many drakes, you probably could have taken turrets in the same time.

its basically. why take a drake that helps you killing turrets, when you could just use that time to kill turrets?

im seing my teams often literally go straight to mountain drake after a won teamfight, when they could just push mid and take the inner turret and the inhib turret before the enemy respawns. and its pissing me off every time.

wind and mountain are only useful in very specific nieche scenarios. most people lack the understanding to decide when mountain drake can be useful. and they go for it whenever they can, possibly throw games over it, instead of picking up something useful.

for example when rift herald is available vs. mountain drake or wind drake, go for the fucking rift herald. the buff is huge.

lccarusJun 17, 20162 votes

All numbers calculated under the assumption your group's total attack damage averaged out to 500 AD @ 5 total attacks per second. Additional AD/AP ratio modifiers to dmg on structures was removed from all calculations to simplify the math.

Turret Clear Speed:

No Drake: 3300 HP at 500 dmg per sec = 6.6 seconds Drake lvl 1: 3300 HP at 550 dmg per sec = 6 seconds Drake lvl 2: 3300 HP at 600 dmg per sec = 5.5 seconds Drake lvl 3: 3300 HP at 650 dmg per sec = 5.1 seconds

Inhibitor Clear Speed:

No Drake: 4000 hp at 425 dmg per sec (85% dmg reduction) = 9.4seconds Drake lvl 1: 4000 HP at 475 dmg per sec = 8.42 seconds Drake lvl 2: 4000 HP at 525 dmg per sec = 7.6 seconds Drake lvl 3: 4000 HP at 575 dmg per sec = 7.0 seconds

So without mountain drake, taking the inner turret + inhibitor turrets + + inhibitor + nexus turrets = 35.8 seconds + travel time

With Mountain Drakes at lvl 1/2/3 the time is 32.42/29.6/27.4 + travel time. Saving up to 8 seconds in a run like that can, and has been, and will continue to be game changing. I'm pretty sure, once you factor in the extra dmg you receive from AD/AP on structures, those numbers would compound even further apart.

QuephaJun 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

All numbers calculated under the assumption your group's total attack damage averaged out to 500 AD @ 5 total attacks per second. Additional AD/AP ratio modifiers to dmg on structures was removed from all calculations to simplify the math.

Turret Clear Speed:

No Drake: 3300 HP at 500 dmg per sec = 6.6 seconds Drake lvl 1: 3300 HP at 550 dmg per sec = 6 seconds Drake lvl 2: 3300 HP at 600 dmg per sec = 5.5 seconds Drake lvl 3: 3300 HP at 650 dmg per sec = 5.1 seconds

You don't quite understand how the buff works. The bonus true damage is 10% of your pre-mitigation damage before armor and MR are factored in, kinda like Corki's old passive.

Turrets have 40 armor at the start of the game which would reduce 500 damage to 357, and a mountain drake would still increase that value by a full 50 to 407.

Turret armor caps out at 70 in the late game which reduces 500 damage down 294, which a mountain drake increases to 344

lccarusJun 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You don't quite understand how the buff works. The bonus true damage is 10% of your pre-mitigation damage before armor and MR are factored in, kinda like Corki's old passive.

Turrets have 40 armor at the start of the game which would reduce 500 damage to 357, and a mountain drake would still increase that value by a full 50 to 407.

Turret armor caps out at 70 in the late game which reduces 500 damage down 294, which a mountain drake increases to 344

Regardless, even if the numbers are missing a modifier, it still goes to show that it has a compounding effect and does in fact reduce objective taking time a noticeable amount.

QuephaJun 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Regardless, even if the numbers are missing a modifier, it still goes to show that it has a compounding effect and does in fact reduce objective taking time a noticeable amount.

I'd just prefer to see the math for the ACTUAL value of mountain drake which is 40-70% MORE than what you calculated.

lccarusJun 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'd just prefer to see the math for the ACTUAL value of mountain drake which is 40-70% MORE than what you calculated.

Haha me too but I'm no math wiz! I personally prioritize Infernal>Mountain>The Others.

Critmaster GarenJun 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

All numbers calculated under the assumption your group's total attack damage averaged out to 500 AD @ 5 total attacks per second. Additional AD/AP ratio modifiers to dmg on structures was removed from all calculations to simplify the math.

Turret Clear Speed:

No Drake: 3300 HP at 500 dmg per sec = 6.6 seconds Drake lvl 1: 3300 HP at 550 dmg per sec = 6 seconds Drake lvl 2: 3300 HP at 600 dmg per sec = 5.5 seconds Drake lvl 3: 3300 HP at 650 dmg per sec = 5.1 seconds

Inhibitor Clear Speed:

No Drake: 4000 hp at 425 dmg per sec (85% dmg reduction) = 9.4seconds Drake lvl 1: 4000 HP at 475 dmg per sec = 8.42 seconds Drake lvl 2: 4000 HP at 525 dmg per sec = 7.6 seconds Drake lvl 3: 4000 HP at 575 dmg per sec = 7.0 seconds

So without mountain drake, taking the inner turret + inhibitor turrets + + inhibitor + nexus turrets = 35.8 seconds + travel time

With Mountain Drakes at lvl 1/2/3 the time is 32.42/29.6/27.4 + travel time. Saving up to 8 seconds in a run like that can, and has been, and will continue to be game changing. I'm pretty sure, once you factor in the extra dmg you receive from AD/AP on structures, those numbers would compound even further apart.

and all that time youre investing in getting the drake while youre in a good position would have probably been better invested instead of i dont know.

just taking a goddamn turret. or baron directly.

thats my point. youre speeding up a turret siege by 5 to 8 seconds. but first you spend between 30 and 60 seconds to take mountain drake.

in too many situations, teams go for mountain drake when they could take a turret right that moment instead. turrets grant a global gold advantage, which benefits your team more than that damage conversion.

lccarusJun 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEoBzMlQ,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-06-17T14:39:41.673+0000)

and all that time youre investing in getting the drake while youre in a good position would have probably been better invested instead of i dont know.

just taking a goddamn turret. or baron directly.

thats my point. youre speeding up a turret siege by 5 to 8 seconds. but first you spend between 30 and 60 seconds to take mountain drake.

in too many situations, teams go for mountain drake when they could take a turret right that moment instead. turrets grant a global gold advantage, which benefits your team more than that damage conversion.

Its also the damage you are robbing the enemy team of. There's a lot involved here, and against an enemy team who defends turrets well but is pushed up it provides a shift in power for you. LCS teams wouldn't prioritize this dragon if it didn't matter. In organized play it provides a significant advantage especially when you consider the fact the other team doesn't have it.

If they siege well, taking this drake away from them can keep you in the game longer

LegitBusinessmanJun 17, 20161 votes

It's best for melting baron / elder dragon.

DeathBurstJun 17, 20161 votes

... unless you already have an advantage in the game. :(

Or if you know how to splitpush properly when your team is behind. I personally love Mountain Drake.

137434Jun 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=1 Wing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEoBzMlQ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-06-17T00:07:50.555+0000)

My jungler, literally won't take it, and walks away. Some of my team, stays, and dies when the enemy team shows up. Then the enemy team pushed directly to my base [they also didn't care about mountain drake], and took the nexus, because of that.

Because of Mountain Dragon.

That isn't because of Mountain Drake. That is because of your team's stupidity, lack of coordination, and likely lack of map awareness.

Guyy FieriJun 17, 20161 votes

The dragons require to play in a way that is best based on which dragon you have. Unfortunately, for uncoordinated play, mountain dragons play style is probably the hardest since it requires a cohesive understanding of macro play. Infernal dragon is perfect for solo queue since it's all about fighting.

DaemonetteNov 25, 20161 votes

My biggest problem with mountain is it only effects towers/jungle camps. While fire effects everything. I do not understand how people like mountain so much. If you not how to play the game the buff really not that good. Kill a player do some damage to the tower. Push the player do some damage on the tower. When mountain drake might be nice is after you ace the enemy team and half your team backs because they are low life. Which I never understood that. What they are afraid a doombot will suddenly spawn and get a penta kill. No take the objectives. Objectives are not hard to take when you are using your brain.

Also the buff is very lower damage. It like Jhin with 600 ad rank one dragon will only do an extra 20 damage or something. Not really a big boost. I would have have more damage to everything verse little bonus damage to towers.