@Riot "Karma is one of those touchy champions"

IxtaliKing·Dec 7, 2016·7 votes·984 views

I know Karma is one of those touchy champions, due to her existing catalog, previous rework, etc. Karma mains are one of the most passionate, I've found - it's just a matter of giving your feedback and ideas in a constructive manner. ;) We hope that this puts a bit more faith in us and shows that we do care about Karma.

-Riot KateyKhaos

The Live Balance team couldn't even wait a full week before making her look like a liar, bless her. Maybe the skin team listen to Karma players somewhat, but it's clear as day the Live Balance team don't give a shit. There have been many threads giving constructive feedback and even popular suggestions, and not a single Rioter has ever even bothered to acknowledge them.

Karma's current pbe changes just prove that Riot doesn't like to listen when it comes to Karma, they were warned about buffing her shield in 6.6 but went through with it anyway so she could be FOTM. I'm so over this tbh, I'm salty af.

32 Comments

SilverSquidDec 8, 20165 votes

Hey man, thanks for featuring me. I just wanted to assure you of my support, but also remind you that the normal player and non-Karma main might not quite get why you are this salty and assume it is missguided (this is why I talked about with the short argument - long argument crux). I know, this is why you linked my threads, but I seriously doubt more than 2 people read more than the headlines there.

I wouldn't want to discourage you though. I am working on something too, and in the meantime, anything trying to get their attention is appreciated. Thanks man!

IxtaliKingDec 8, 20162 votes

Lol its cool man, I wrote this thread at like 4am after work out of 100% pure saltiness. I must admit when I woke up in expected a lot more down votes. Thanks for the support though xD.

Maximum MordeDec 7, 20164 votes

The shield change... whatever. Who cares, it's tiny. I'm still pissed that I don't have bonus damage on Mantra E or Mantra W anymore.

The W change is dissapointing. I'm pretty sure they did that to specifically make it less reliable damage and to nerf how fast she could recharge her Mantra if you actually managed to get three pulses off it. It's a small nerf, but was it really needed? I guess people just don't want Karma to even be picked. It's back to top lane Karma for me I guess. Pissing off top Laners is still fun.

IxtaliKingDec 7, 20165 votes

The shield change... whatever. Who cares, it's tiny. I'm still pissed that I don't have bonus damage on Mantra E or Mantra W anymore.

Yeah I agree, the shield nerf itself is fine, they just wouldn't have needed to do this now if they had listened to us before and left it alone. All of the problems Karma is having today are because of her 5.10 changes, they never meaningfully compensated her for the loss of her RW and RE damage they just kept buffing her numbers.

The W change is dissapointing. I'm pretty sure they did that to specifically make it less reliable damage and to nerf how fast she could recharge her Mantra if you actually managed to get three pulses off it. It's a small nerf, but was it really needed? I guess people just don't want Karma to even be picked.

Well now that her W deals damage in 2 ticks, it is literally just a point and click LB tether. Everytime they have touched Karma since 5.10 have made her less distinct, less cohesive and less healthy (when they buffed her shield). It's sad because they just do these things in a vacuum without discussing anything.

dakota saturnDec 7, 20163 votes

Sry, pls explain to a non-karma main why its a big deal.

MisterShamelessDec 7, 20166 votes

To make it simple, Karma was the first champion to get an official rework. The person in charge of her rework did not give a single ... about her so no real planning was done. She was leaked and because she was leaked, she was rushed out, leaving her with an incompleted model, animations, voice overs/lines, lack of interactions, no real passive, none of which has still not have been addressed yet for 4 YEARS. The lack of communication between the karma mains during her rework development because the person in charge of it didn't care for Karma (even with a HUGE reddit thread talking about the Karma rework, nothing was really contributed), and honestly at this point, the list just goes on and on and on. This being the simplified version of it and STILL not even close to HALF the things thats wrong with Karma that make Karma mains unhappy with her.

dakota saturnDec 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

To make it simple, Karma was the first champion to get an official rework. The person in charge of her rework did not give a single ... about her so no real planning was done. She was leaked and because she was leaked, she was rushed out, leaving her with an incompleted model, animations, voice overs/lines, lack of interactions, no real passive, none of which has still not have been addressed yet for 4 YEARS. The lack of communication between the karma mains during her rework development because the person in charge of it didn't care for Karma (even with a HUGE reddit thread talking about the Karma rework, nothing was really contributed), and honestly at this point, the list just goes on and on and on. This being the simplified version of it and STILL not even close to HALF the things thats wrong with Karma that make Karma mains unhappy with her.

No she wasn't - champs have been remade since Beta. Kayle has been remade 5 or 6 times, as was Jax.

Are you really calling the current iteration of Karma weak? Comparing her to her old version is laughable - she was literally a troll champ. She was who I picked to force queue dodges after Eve was remade (gasp another champ remade before Karma), and just by the act of locking her in made people immediately alt - f4 because no one wanted Karma on their team. You could pretend to take Revive/Ghost for extra bonus points.

She was quite literally the worst champion in the entire roster, for a long time - OLD Karma felt like a shitty incomplete champion. A few people were pissed when new karma was released, but no one would ever say that new Karma is weak at all - she sees competitive play regularly and is competent in every lane and has several build paths.

Old Karma was just plain useless and you would have to build a team around her, and even then her weird abilities were half-assed - not good as a nuker, and not good as a support. Her abilties were ugly and she was terrible as support - terrible as a mid laner, and completely outclassed top lane. There wasn't a good reason to ever take her.

Clotheslining people was hilarious, but totally impractical and unrewarding because of the coordination it required. Her old fan had a tiny AoE and the heal was garbage. The only ability that was -ever- worth using your ult for was the shield.

And you still haven't addressed specifically exactly what change she's getting that you disagree with because all I see is 30 ponts off her shield at max rank, and changing her W to be more consistent. You're just holding some beef over your shitty champ being changed into one that's actually playable.

MisterShamelessDec 7, 20161 votes

Wasn't Twisted Fate also reworked a bunch, I personally view them as beta testing so in a way they were not really officially released versions yet.

I didn't say she was weak nor strong at any point of my post.

As for her current state, my only complaint is her W being in a weird state and her E being overbuffed due to removal of her shield damage and not going in the ideal direction it could be.

Most of what I said has to do with the people who worked on Karma and Karma's models with how unfinished she is and how she became a bit too generic from it. The Karma mains back then wanted to IMPROVE her while they were reworking her, they weren't trying to stop it (as far as I know, I could be wrong, there will always be someone like that).

VekknaDec 7, 20163 votes

Spilling that boiling hot truth tea. It's like the old Cassio mains whining about the "poison mage" that was never really a thing in the first place. Or Sona mains who dox you and threaten to kill your whole family if you dare to say she's good or even enjoy playing her.

ZephyrDrakeDec 7, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AE30M0Zz,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-07T07:40:35.972+0000)

No she wasn't - champs have been remade since Beta. Kayle has been remade 5 or 6 times, as was Jax.

Are you really calling the current iteration of Karma weak? Comparing her to her old version is laughable - she was literally a troll champ. She was who I picked to force queue dodges after Eve was remade (gasp another champ remade before Karma), and just by the act of locking her in made people immediately alt - f4 because no one wanted Karma on their team. You could pretend to take Revive/Ghost for extra bonus points.

She was quite literally the worst champion in the entire roster, for a long time - OLD Karma felt like a shitty incomplete champion. A few people were pissed when new karma was released, but no one would ever say that new Karma is weak at all - she sees competitive play regularly and is competent in every lane and has several build paths.

Old Karma was just plain useless and you would have to build a team around her, and even then her weird abilities were half-assed - not good as a nuker, and not good as a support. Her abilties were ugly and she was terrible as support - terrible as a mid laner, and completely outclassed top lane. There wasn't a good reason to ever take her.

Clotheslining people was hilarious, but totally impractical and unrewarding because of the coordination it required. Her old fan had a tiny AoE and the heal was garbage. The only ability that was -ever- worth using your ult for was the shield.

And you still haven't addressed specifically exactly what change she's getting that you disagree with because all I see is 30 ponts off her shield at max rank, and changing her W to be more consistent. You're just holding some beef over your shitty champ being changed into one that's actually playable.

sorry but what? i'm not going to say that old Karma was great but useless? i would do great with old Karma, hell old Karma actually saw competitive play when a lot of champions back in the day and even now haven't appeared ONCE. Old Karma wasn't great but she was far from being the worst champion in the game. Eve was the worst champion in the game back then and even her saw decent success when people actually bothered learning her nuances. Sorry to say this but, she was perfectly playable and perfectly viable as her old self and had a very unique niche to her. New Karma is just some generic mage with a generic shield, generic skill shot and a generic tether and when using her "ult" she just gets extra effects to her generic abilities that just makes them be more generic than actually unique.

Old Karma you always had to choose whether to use an ability offensively or defensively, every time you used any of her mantra'd skills it changed how you would use the skills, unless you got the perfect scenario in which she would be able to use both at the same time. New Karma is a perfectly fine champion, just a damn boring generic one with nothing unique to her. There is no duality, there is no balance, there is nothing exciting about playing new Karma other than giving someone a gigantic shield which anyone with CC can do now due to CoC

dakota saturnDec 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

sorry but what? i'm not going to say that old Karma was great but useless? i would do great with old Karma, hell old Karma actually saw competitive play when a lot of champions back in the day and even now haven't appeared ONCE. Old Karma wasn't great but she was far from being the worst champion in the game. Eve was the worst champion in the game back then and even her saw decent success when people actually bothered learning her nuances. Sorry to say this but, she was perfectly playable and perfectly viable as her old self and had a very unique niche to her. New Karma is just some generic mage with a generic shield, generic skill shot and a generic tether and when using her "ult" she just gets extra effects to her generic abilities that just makes them be more generic than actually unique.

Old Karma you always had to choose whether to use an ability offensively or defensively, every time you used any of her mantra'd skills it changed how you would use the skills, unless you got the perfect scenario in which she would be able to use both at the same time. New Karma is a perfectly fine champion, just a damn boring generic one with nothing unique to her. There is no duality, there is no balance, there is nothing exciting about playing new Karma other than giving someone a gigantic shield which anyone with CC can do now due to CoC

The problem with old karma was that she was so unspecialized and had no scaling in late game. She also suffered from the illusion of choice - sure you could ult on her 3 spells, but 2 of them were so niche and almost had no use compared to ulting on her E that it was 99% of the time the wrong thing to do. With new Karma, all 3 of her abilities have a lot of use being R'd - and the player actually has to make a meaningful choice in what they choose - either a big nuke, a heal, or a shield/speed buff for her team.

Her old clothesline tether was awful - how are you going to use that in a teamfight and actually hit anyone with it? Why would you ever risk using your ult on it over your AoE shield? Her only use of tether in a solo lane was to use it on a minion as you were walking to lane to make you walk a little bit faster. Maybe you could use it on a cannon minion and walk in a circle to farm a little bit, but that is a very niche use. Trying to use it on the enemy champion was impossible, and expecting anyone to get hit by it without using flash is laughable.

Her old Q was such a tiny AoE that it was incredibly risky to use it offensively, and because it was based on missing % HP, the heal was horrible unless your teammates were close to death. And usually, if they were, they'd be ignited or debuffed with grievous wounds, making it even less impactful.

There was also the issue of - where do you lane her? She scales with AP and needed money. At the time, supports were expected to get by purely on their utility. Today's support roster of AP mages in the support role would be unheard of back then. All of their gold income went to wards and mobility boots. Expecting Karma to get fed bot lane almost never happened, and having her instead of Soraka, Janna, Sona, or any other traditional support at the time was awful. She had nothing to offer in a bot lane.

So, you had to take her mid. And what is she going to do mid? The only way for her to harass was to aoe shield a minion when the enemy went for a cs, or walk up and Q them in that tiny radius - for very unimpressive damage, when the enemy is likely going to follow up with a full combo.

I played old Karma quite a bit, I know how bad of a spot she was in. I had a thing for underdog champions and trying to make them work. Yeah, she was a fun champion, but she was awful, and for a very long time, had one of the lowest % success rates in the entire roster. This is a fact. She was Evelynn tier for a very long time. I remember one game where she was played in a tournament, and her team lost, and I never saw her again. The only time I seriously picked her in a ranked game was when my team was spewing racist toxic shit in pregame lobby, and I figured the game was already lost anyway, so might as well play a 'fun' champ. Sure, I won a few of those games, but not because Karma was any good - she wasn't. I usually was duo with a main top laner Irelia and we would be laughing at how angry those people got about the Karma pick after they were such assholes in pregame.

I don't even really know what the OP wants - do you want that original iteration of Karma back, or do you want her remake before the 5.10 patch back? Either way, you can call her a generic mage if you want, she's one of the best poke champs in the game, and is much more about her dual support/mage role now than she ever was before the rework. She can fit in any team now, and actually has meaningful decisions to make, and won't put your team on tilt when you lock her in like the old one did.

"An Enlightented Decision".

IxtaliKingDec 7, 20163 votes

The problem with old karma was that she was so unspecialized and had no scaling in late game. She also suffered from the illusion of choice - sure you could ult on her 3 spells, but 2 of them were so niche and almost had no use compared to ulting on her E that it was 99% of the time the wrong thing to do. With new Karma, all 3 of her abilities have a lot of use being R'd - and the player actually has to make a meaningful choice in what they choose - either a big nuke, a heal, or a shield/speed buff for her team.

Karma's rework improved upon Karma gameplay wise, but it lacked thematically. I definitely think you're overselling current Karma though, her decision making has only decreased since she was reworked until now.

I don't even really know what the OP wants - do you want that original iteration of Karma back, or do you want her remake before the 5.10 patch back?

Although I believe the Karma before 5.10 made more sense and was better than she currently is in terms of decision making and skill expression, I just think Riot needs to take her forward and start listening to Karma players.

My original post is just about Riot saying one thing and demonstrating another, and their lack of communication particularly when it comes to Karma.

dakota saturnDec 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Karma's rework improved upon Karma gameplay wise, but it lacked thematically. I definitely think you're overselling current Karma though, her decision making has only decreased since she was reworked until now.

Although I believe the Karma before 5.10 made more sense and was better than she currently is in terms of decision making and skill expression, I just think Riot needs to take her forward and start listening to Karma players.

My original post is just about Riot saying one thing and demonstrating another, and their lack of communication particularly when it comes to Karma.

How has her decision making decreased? I am having a very hard time with understanding why you think old Karma had any decision making at all in her kit.

It's now actually useful to R her other abilities besides her shield. You can actually damage your enemy in lane without the stupid shielding minion gimmick, and if you're low on health, you have to choose between either playing risky, and trying to heal back up with tether, or trying to nuke them down with Q. The rework gave each of her abilities a solid, valid reason to use them, and gives the possibility of more than one ability being useful when ulted.

Her old abilities had dual purpose, but they were both usually awful. Her tether was probably one of the clunkiest, most difficult to use abilities in the entire game, and required both tether targets to know what to do and how to position to use it effectively. And even when you did, it was an underwhelming aoe slow with some damage on it. Q has already been covered as an underwhelming heal or underwhelming damage, and her E by far was her best ability.

Her old passive was stupid too - she only reaches her full potential when she is really low on hp. When Karma is actually playing correctly and staying out of the fray like a mage/support is supposed to do, she's weaker for it. She purposely has to let herself get damaged to actually have some power behind her spells. That's silly.

I get how losing a tick of damage on her tether hurts her current passive, but it doesn't make sense to have 3 iterations of damage on it, and making it 2 doesn't make it any more or less like LB's chain. They're very similar except one is a skillshot and one is a point and click that goes through minions. Karma gets an edge because hers can heal her.

What exactly do you want done from this? According to lol stat sites, Karma is in a solid place in relation to others in her roles, and she's one of the very few champs viable in all lanes. I'd say Riot has done a very good job at taking a clunky, unrewarding, and unnecessarily hard to play champion into a rewarding character that feels like their own champion with meaningful decisions the player makes.

The closest comparison I can make to her current iteration is Lulu because of their dual support/mage nature and focus on poke, but Karma is more focused on the mage aspect, while Lulu is more about the support. Both are unique from each other even though they have a lot in common.

IxtaliKingDec 7, 20163 votes

How has her decision making decreased? I am having a very hard time with understanding why you think old Karma had any decision making at all in her kit.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I'm not comparing current Karma to Old Karma, I'm comparing with pre 5.10 Karma. If you're familiar with Karma prior to her 5.10 changes you'll see how her decision making has been reduced. Not to be dismissive of your question, I've just spoken about this far too much and I'm kinda tired of it. I'm tired of Karma altogether actually, I'm done.

dakota saturnDec 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I'm not comparing current Karma to Old Karma, I'm comparing with pre 5.10 Karma. If you're familiar with Karma prior to her 5.10 changes you'll see how her decision making has been reduced. Not to be dismissive of your question, I've just spoken about this far too much and I'm kinda tired of it. I'm tired of Karma altogether actually, I'm done.

Alright. Fun discussion. Bye!

ZephyrDrakeDec 7, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AE30M0Zz,comment-id=00000000000000020000,timestamp=2016-12-07T17:49:22.246+0000)

snipped because way too long for a reply.

i will keep calling her a generic mage and if i want a poke champion i would pick a million other choices before her since they actually are able to do something afterwards whereas Karma is just hoping the enemy constantly eats her Q and dies/is forced back before she runs out of mana. Karma is an ok poke champion that spikes relatively hard in the mid game and then falls off harder than a rock tied to a boulder off the ocean. Old Karma didn't had choice? so you never healed your teammates at all? her old tether was lame but so is this one, the current one is just marginally more useful due to it doing something when it ends and now her E is just a joke of a spell that gets nerfed over and over since the only thing riot put into it was huge numbers and that's literally the only appeal of it. I much rather have a mediocre unique champion than a generic boring one that is just slightly better

dakota saturnDec 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

i will keep calling her a generic mage and if i want a poke champion i would pick a million other choices before her since they actually are able to do something afterwards whereas Karma is just hoping the enemy constantly eats her Q and dies/is forced back before she runs out of mana. Karma is an ok poke champion that spikes relatively hard in the mid game and then falls off harder than a rock tied to a boulder off the ocean. Old Karma didn't had choice? so you never healed your teammates at all? her old tether was lame but so is this one, the current one is just marginally more useful due to it doing something when it ends and now her E is just a joke of a spell that gets nerfed over and over since the only thing riot put into it was huge numbers and that's literally the only appeal of it. I much rather have a mediocre unique champion than a generic boring one that is just slightly better

I agree - she falls off in damage same as Lulu and other utility mages late game. But she's still miles ahead of old Karma in what she was designed to do, and her AoE shield with the speed buff is strong regardless of anything else. Sure, I used the heal in between teamfights, but not ulting your E as old Karma meant that you're giving up more than half your burst in a teamfight.

If you were playing Old Karma, you were likely your team's AP mid - giving up at least 60% of your burst for a crappy heal, which only was effective after everyone's already blown their cooldowns was 9 times out of 10 a bad decision. Even considering R'ing old Karma's tether was basically trolling. Not only did it barely do anything, but it's wasting your ult on one of the worst designed abilities in the entire roster for a slightly stronger slow. I'm pretty sure her crappy tether was one of the main reasons she was such a bad champion.

Old Karma had almost zero utility beyond a crappy hard to use slow and a single target shield. The new one might be similar to LB's, but when LB was released, everyone complained that it was the same as morgana's ult. They have different kits and their tethers allow them to do different things. Karma can tether someone to set them up for a RQ and a massive nuke. It's also point and click, so it goes through minions and you can target whoever you want in a teamfight. LB pretty much -has- to land her chain and proc it to do any meaningful damage the way she's designed now.

I mean you can say she's generic and boring, but her pickrate would suggest otherwise - she's a fairly popular champ and can fit into almost any team. She's a different champ than she was before the work, certainly, but I highly doubt anyone but the most diehard fans would want the old one back instead of the new one.

ZephyrDrakeDec 8, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AE30M0Zz,comment-id=0000000000000002000000010000,timestamp=2016-12-07T19:37:28.797+0000)

I agree - she falls off in damage same as Lulu and other utility mages late game. But she's still miles ahead of old Karma in what she was designed to do, and her AoE shield with the speed buff is strong regardless of anything else. Sure, I used the heal in between teamfights, but not ulting your E as old Karma meant that you're giving up more than half your burst in a teamfight.

If you were playing Old Karma, you were likely your team's AP mid - giving up at least 60% of your burst for a crappy heal, which only was effective after everyone's already blown their cooldowns was 9 times out of 10 a bad decision. Even considering R'ing old Karma's tether was basically trolling. Not only did it barely do anything, but it's wasting your ult on one of the worst designed abilities in the entire roster for a slightly stronger slow. I'm pretty sure her crappy tether was one of the main reasons she was such a bad champion.

Old Karma had almost zero utility beyond a crappy hard to use slow and a single target shield. The new one might be similar to LB's, but when LB was released, everyone complained that it was the same as morgana's ult. They have different kits and their tethers allow them to do different things. Karma can tether someone to set them up for a RQ and a massive nuke. It's also point and click, so it goes through minions and you can target whoever you want in a teamfight. LB pretty much -has- to land her chain and proc it to do any meaningful damage the way she's designed now.

I mean you can say she's generic and boring, but her pickrate would suggest otherwise - she's a fairly popular champ and can fit into almost any team. She's a different champ than she was before the work, certainly, but I highly doubt anyone but the most diehard fans would want the old one back instead of the new one.

lulu does not fall of in the late game, she still offers plenty of shields, peel and her ult is huge! Orianna just gets stronger the game advances. Unless you are talking strictly support Karma/Lulu/-insert utility mage here- in which case Karma falls even harder! Karma is a champion that as soon as mid game comes she just gets worst and worst and worst unless she got fed. plenty of utility mages actually thrive the later the game goes due to them providing a good amount of damage while having their utility be just that much better. Karma doesn't really have that.

I don't care about her pickrate, a champion can be generic and boring yet still be popular due to them being strong in the current meta. In the current state of the game in which games are usually over before Karma really falls off then she is going to be picked, regardless of how boring and generic she is

dakota saturnDec 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

lulu does not fall of in the late game, she still offers plenty of shields, peel and her ult is huge! Orianna just gets stronger the game advances. Unless you are talking strictly support Karma/Lulu/-insert utility mage here- in which case Karma falls even harder! Karma is a champion that as soon as mid game comes she just gets worst and worst and worst unless she got fed. plenty of utility mages actually thrive the later the game goes due to them providing a good amount of damage while having their utility be just that much better. Karma doesn't really have that.

I don't care about her pickrate, a champion can be generic and boring yet still be popular due to them being strong in the current meta. In the current state of the game in which games are usually over before Karma really falls off then she is going to be picked, regardless of how boring and generic she is

Nah, I meant Lulu's damage falls off late game - she only has 2 damaging abilities, and they don't have great AP ratios late game. Karma has pretty good poke and push power late game, even if her damage falls off - and she has decent CC and utility as well. I think Karma is much better suited for a solo lane than Lulu is, and can be pretty influential for a big portion of the game - and then at the end she can work to protect her adc, like other utility supports.

I actually play a lot of mid AP Janna because she scales insanely well with AP (not dmg, but shield and heals), and she does a surprising amount of damage in lane that catches a lot of ppl off guard and nets me quite a few kills. She's also near impossible to gank or kill.

IxtaliKingDec 7, 20164 votes

My issue is that they that they seem to ignore popular feedback when it comes to Karma, completely. Whenever other champs have changes on the PBE someone can ask for context, a red (usually Meddler) will stop by and give context. Whenever Karma has changes and we ask for context we get nothing, there's no discussion. We're often told if we're constructive that we'll get answers, but that's proven not to be true. It just seems to me like Riot don't know what to do with Karma, and rather than have a discussion about her with her community they'd prefer to do random experiments on their own.

dakota saturnDec 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

My issue is that they that they seem to ignore popular feedback when it comes to Karma, completely. Whenever other champs have changes on the PBE someone can ask for context, a red (usually Meddler) will stop by and give context. Whenever Karma has changes and we ask for context we get nothing, there's no discussion. We're often told if we're constructive that we'll get answers, but that's proven not to be true. It just seems to me like Riot don't know what to do with Karma, and rather than have a discussion about her with her community they'd prefer to do random experiments on their own.

Take a stroll over to r/LeBlanc mains or r/AkaliMains on reddit if you want examples of champs that were completely changed without any input from the people who play said champs. A few weeks ago, some users were literally posting that they were trying to get Rick fired for changing Akali, and were posting his picture and laughing at him. People were tagging 20thcentury on the LeBlanc main in every single post until he replied (he didn't.) and were voicing very negative opinions on LB's rework, and still are.

Karma players aren't special, every single champ has diehard people who will complain if their champ is being looked at.

This is how Riot works - they will change and rewrite as they please, regardless of what that particular champs 'mains' think. I've had two onetrick characters that Riot up and completely changed the playstyles for, and I know that's how it is.

My favorite character that's ever been in this game was Eve before the rework - the true stealth assassin. She's now a Shyvana with stealth as far as I'm concerned - completely different style from the character that made me love this game.

But that's how the company works - that's how businesses work. You are concerned with the vast majority of your consumers, not a tiny clique of whiners who won't be happy with literally any change you do on their beloved champion.

Best thing you can do is suck it up and deal with it - learn to love the new iteration of your champ, stop being so upset about changes, and stop trying to get Riot to revert. You're never getting that old iteration of Karma back no matter what you do. You can sit and be upset, or you can find a new champ. They're not going to be 'oh wow this KingKold guy really has a point - let's devote a lot of resources to doing what he says about Karma'. It's your call.

IxtaliKingDec 7, 20163 votes

A few weeks ago, some users were literally posting that they were trying to get Rick fired for changing Akali, and were posting his picture and laughing at him. Karma players aren't special, every single champ has diehard people who will complain if their champ is being looked at.

Laughing at people's pics and trying to get them fired is going way too far, that's just extra. But... Rickless has a thing for unapologetically ruining people's champs in ways that really aren't necessary, and he should be called out on that and that alone.

Also, I'm not trying to make out like Karma players are special, I'm just saying when we ask for context on pbe changes we get no answers.

My favorite character that's ever been in this game was Eve before the rework - the true stealth assassin. She's now a Shyvana with stealth as far as I'm concerned - completely different style from the character that made me love this game.

Fair enough, but she's got a rework coming up so you guys have a chance to have a discussion with Riot. When it comes to Riot's recent reworks they've been doing great work, so I'm sure Eve will be the true stealth assassin again, just got to make sure you talk up so they don't turn her into a Diver ;).

But that's how the company works - that's how businesses work. You are concerned with the vast majority of your consumers, not a tiny clique of whiners who won't be happy with literally any change you do on their beloved champion.

It's not about "tiny cliques" it's about player bases, most players only care about the champs they play, which is fine. When it comes to changing champs the goal should be 1st to appease that champs player base. Now we know you can't please everyone 100% of the time as we've seen from Sion's objectively amazing rework, where a few people were mad about AP nuke mage Sion being deleted. However, that doesn't mean it's okay for Riot to completely disregard a champ's playerbase like they have with Karma.

Best thing you can do is suck it up and deal with it - learn to love the new iteration of your champ, stop being so upset about changes, and stop trying to get Riot to revert.

Nope. There is no new iteration of Karma, it's just a shell of a champ called Karma. My grievance is with the fact that they say they are listening and that they care, but their actions are proving otherwise, that is my current issue. So I won't be sucking up a damn thing, they made me feel a type of way last night and I felt I needed to let them know.

You're never getting that old iteration of Karma back no matter what you do.

I'm not saying they should go back to old Karma, or even the old iteration of her rework (pre 5.10). I may say Riot would be better off putting Karma back to her pre 5.10 values, but I think they should go forward. All I ask for is some kind of communication.

You can sit and be upset, or you can find a new champ. They're not going to be 'oh wow this KingKold guy really has a point - let's devote a lot of resources to doing what he says about Karma'. It's your call.

I usually wouldn't respond to something like this because it looks like you're doing too much and deliberately trying to be inflammatory, so I'm not gonna assume, I'm going to ask. Your post suggests you think I'm really upset, so is this last comment meant to be friendly advice, or were you trying to upset me further?

MisterShamelessDec 7, 20161 votes

Hey man, my first reply was about Karma's rework and how poorly communication was with developers and players, I never mentioned her in-game state at any point of my post.

WinterkillDec 7, 20162 votes

KateyKhaos didn't say that. Another Riot Employee, on the skin team ironically, said what you quoted her on. Honestly, I wouldn't even mention the skin department. The skin department is at least trying to give the community new things for Karma. No one on the balance and update team can say that. The skin department may have fallen short by not giving her good quality skins, but what are they supposed to do when multiple departments do not even care about Karma?

If Riot wanted to completely relaunch karma into something else with a new kit, identity, theme, visual update, and more . . . . then at least go all out with it. Instead, they blamed the fact that she was the first rework and Riot didn't have the right technologies to do it justice, as a reason why her rework/relaunch failed. Four years now and the balance and update team is playing volleyball with her. Riot knows the problems Karma suffers. Riot knows why Karma mains are upset . . . . . Riot knows all of this. The balance and update team choose to work on Zed 5+ times in 2016, rework Ryze 7 times and plus any updates he has received since then, update Ekko 6+ times plus a class update . . . . . and Morde and Karma cannot get any work. The balance and update team has their priorities.

The skin department might not even care, but I can at least see them trying with the recent skin. The recent skin has instilled my faith in them a little more. The balance and update team I have lost all faith in. They don't get it or don't care. Now the excuse from the balance and update team is going to be "Karma's new kit has been out way too long for us to make any changes to it." It's been said to me before.

Karma mains are not passionate. There are other negative words to describe how we feel about the treatment towards this champion for 4 years now. We are not passionate. We are upset that Karma is, once again, being ignored and nerfed again.

IxtaliKingDec 7, 20166 votes

I quoted KateyKhaos from this thread.

Karma mains are not passionate. There are other negative words to describe how we feel about the treatment towards this champion for 4 years now. We are not passionate. We are upset that Karma is, once again, being ignored and nerfed again.

Passionate was actually the right word, we are passionate about Karma and thats why we get mad when they fuck with her.

AbyssphereDec 7, 20161 votes

I just don't get why they're revulting the ult E buff and giving her an additional nerf on top of it. She wasn't that strong until they buffed that but they're actually making her weaker than a proven, formerly balanced state of hers.

IxtaliKingDec 7, 20162 votes

Before her shield buffs she was balanced, and she still had a couple small tricks like minion shielding for tower sieges, last hit denial and extending RE range. Karma is hands down the most ruined champion in league history.

SpârkyDec 7, 20163 votes

When the Karma main complains she's the most ruined champion in league history Urgot Yorick Kalista Mordekaiser they all disagree

IxtaliKingDec 7, 20165 votes

Urgot - Is getting a rework soon, and Riot got a lot better at reworks since they spat out Karma's unfinished ass.

Yorick - I don't know a lot about Yorick, I thought his update looked good. His art is great, his theme is well communicated and his kit seems alright. But I say that at a glance, what's wrong with him?

Kalista - Riot is planning to work on her and her kit hasn't really changed, they've just nerfed really badly. Now if you had said this guy Azir , I could agree he's been ruined because he's had a lot taken from him much like Karma . Difference is Azir had a lot take, Karma didn't.

Mordekaiser - This one I'm aware of (thanks to Malicious Metal), Riot done him so dirty and I think out of principal Riot should make working on Morde a priority. But I also think Karma is in the same boat. Her rework was unfinished, how they've been able to just strip her of everything over 3+ years is disgusting and I stand by what said.