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Why nerf Shyv's Q and not her E?

Mister Modesty·Mar 24, 2016·3 votes·399 views

Shyvana's Q makes her next basic attack strike twice. Now- I'll admit the scaling was tight- at a 5% increase each level ending at 200%. But- her real damage output is from her E- which makes her basic attacks deal additional damage based on the target's max health. This is why Devourer and BorK work so great with her. The 'debuff' from her E lasts for 5 seconds. The CD of her Q is reduced 1 seconds upon her basic attacks.

The damage of the Q isn't what's eating us up- it's the damage from her E and how many times she can land an attack while the debuff is up. If Shyv lands a Q immediately after landing her E, she can land another Q before the debuff runs out. Meaning- the additional damage from the debuff is proc'd twice on one hit- regardless of the actual damage being dealt from the attack.

With a full build- a Shyvana can land her Q AA on a marked enemy at least 3 times. If Shyv is Sated, then we're seeing more on-hit bonus true damage. Within the 5 seconds of Shyvana's mark, you can be struck by her more than 12 times. Regardless of the base damage- 12 times the % true damage added is overwhelming.

If Shyvana has 5 "Krug stacks", she can use "Flame Breath" to initiate, hit her Q, AA the marked enemy- stun them, and unleash enough force to be able to finish them off quickly. All because basic attacks against marked/debuffed enemies deal % Health in bonus true damage.

Let me re-say that. PERCENT HEALTH BONUS TRUE DAMAGE PER HIT & ON-HIT EFFECT

Sated Devourer and Twin Bite really abuse this ability.

14 Comments

Mayor StubbsMar 24, 20163 votes

I imagine it's because her Q is her massive burst. Most of the time she would jump on someone and get Q (her burst) then get kited or have to kite back herself - so the cooldown reduction isn't as good as you're making it to be

Mister ModestyMar 24, 20161 votes

What are you even talking about? They nerfed her Q. I'm saying her Q isn't what makes her so dangerous. It's her E. You only need one point in Q for the double-hit. That second hit prompts true damage from her E debuff. So the actual damage from her Q isn't the problem. It's the bonus true damage from her E.

You're saying something about Shyvana not being liable? I honestly have no idea what your point is. Look up Shyvana's abilities. Her E damages enemies in a line, and marks them for 5 seconds. Basic attacks against these enemies apply bonus true damage based on a % of the target's maximum Health. ^This effect is activated from the 'phantom hit' from Sated Devourer, and the "twin hit" of her Q. All you need is Attack Speed, one point in Q, and a maxed E.

Mayor StubbsMar 24, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Son of Kolrath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AAkWsEoQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-03-24T02:29:27.243+0000)

What are you even talking about? They nerfed her Q. I'm saying her Q isn't what makes her so dangerous. It's her E. You only need one point in Q for the double-hit. That second hit prompts true damage from her E debuff. So the actual damage from her Q isn't the problem. It's the bonus true damage from her E.

You're saying something about Shyvana not being liable? I honestly have no idea what your point is. Look up Shyvana's abilities. Her E damages enemies in a line, and marks them for 5 seconds. Basic attacks against these enemies apply bonus true damage based on a % of the target's maximum Health. ^This effect is activated from the 'phantom hit' from Sated Devourer, and the "twin hit" of her Q. All you need is Attack Speed, one point in Q, and a maxed E.

And her E is not what made her dangerous.

And that the nerf was in the right area

Mayor StubbsMar 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Son of Kolrath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AAkWsEoQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-03-24T02:29:27.243+0000)

What are you even talking about? They nerfed her Q. I'm saying her Q isn't what makes her so dangerous. It's her E. You only need one point in Q for the double-hit. That second hit prompts true damage from her E debuff. So the actual damage from her Q isn't the problem. It's the bonus true damage from her E.

You're saying something about Shyvana not being liable? I honestly have no idea what your point is. Look up Shyvana's abilities. Her E damages enemies in a line, and marks them for 5 seconds. Basic attacks against these enemies apply bonus true damage based on a % of the target's maximum Health. ^This effect is activated from the 'phantom hit' from Sated Devourer, and the "twin hit" of her Q. All you need is Attack Speed, one point in Q, and a maxed E.

I was trying to explain WHY her Q is by far her strongest ability in my earlier post, but it's not really important why. I guess just saying it is, is enough

Mayor StubbsMar 24, 20162 votes

I'm saying her Q is what made her dangerous

Mister ModestyMar 24, 20161 votes

The damage from her Q can be countered with basic Armor. The damage from her E is true damage, which is a set % of the target's maximum health.

I don't see how you think Q is dangerous. The only danger is the double hit once E has been used.

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TRMar 24, 20162 votes

Her E debuff is magic damage, not true damage. Not sure where you're getting that from.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Shyvana

ProfirixMar 24, 20162 votes

Shyvana's E on-hit proc is NOT true damage, its % max health MAGIC damage. Its the reason people say she does approximately 75% magic damage and 25% physical. Obviously those values change depending on how tanky the enemy team is. I will concede that lowering twin-bite damage doesn't do much other than lower her alpha damage early game, but I always end up leveling Q second anyway. Maxing E second offers nothing but slightly more poke damage. The % health value is unchanged.

QuephaMar 24, 20161 votes

Probably because her E is already pretty garbage against enemy champions but it's also the skill in Shyvana's kit with the most inherent counterplay. I'm surprised Riot hasn't moved more of her power budget into that skill shot so when playing against a Shyvana, dodging her E would actually matter.

Mister ModestyMar 24, 20161 votes

You would do well to dodge that E. The majority of Shyvana's damage output comes from marking an enemy.

M0b1usMar 24, 20161 votes

Her E mark deals %HP in MAGIC DAMAGE, not true damage. Also, the only scaling it has is based on AP and that only increases the initial hit of the actual spell. So no matter what you buy, proc'ing her E mark will always deal the same damage.

Now her Q was nerfed because of a really powerful interaction with titanic hydra. Since hydra does not have an internal CD on a single target, her Q will proc hydra twice. The most common build for her was/is devourer into titantic. This was because titanic both boosted her basic auto attack, and both parts to Q which would essentially make her auto attacks themselves a nice source of damage. Without it, most of her damage would be solely based on her W and how many times you can proc E. While going titanic would not maximize the damage from E marks, it make her AD based damage skyrocket.

Rushing titanic after devourer made Shyvana's damage much harder to itemize against and more importantly made her early/mid game damage significantly more powerful. When late game comes, E still contributes to a large amount of her magic damage, but early game most champions don't have a decent amount of HP. So it makes more since to level up Q first when resisitances still aren't fully built and level up E last when players are reaching their max HP.

Basically, Q was nerfed because its interaction with titanic hydra gave her a huge damage power spike too early on. E's powerspike comes when champs start getting close to their max HP for their build. That is why they nerfed Q just a bit and didn't nerf anything else because they also nerfed titanic hydra. These changes should smooth out her power curve.

Mister ModestyMar 24, 20161 votes

Okay- so maxing E first is pointless, but thee's still the matter of Attack Speed and on-hit effects. You could max her W first and go tanky- while building Attack Speed. That E is still amazing- and her Q proc and phantom hits from sated really capitalize on the E. It's really not about her Q.

M0b1usMar 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Son of Kolrath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AAkWsEoQ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-03-24T07:06:08.470+0000)

Okay- so maxing E first is pointless, but thee's still the matter of Attack Speed and on-hit effects. You could max her W first and go tanky- while building Attack Speed. That E is still amazing- and her Q proc and phantom hits from sated really capitalize on the E. It's really not about her Q.

Did you not read? Q and titanic were basically hyper synergizing making her early game damage absolutely massive.

It really is about her Q interacting with titanic hydra.

Billy VoHagenMar 24, 20161 votes

If you're gonna qq, at least try not to be that much of an idiot doing it.

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