Making items more interesting. Situational passives.

Khristophoros··34 votes·3,057 views

I was inspired by Raptor Cloak. I think there is a lot more potential with the concept of passives that work in specific situations.

A problem I see with items in general is that they don't have enough gameplay changing effects, which leads to them feeling like stat-sticks. There are exceptions such as item 3157 , item 3139 , and more which have big effects on gameplay but most items are less interesting.

An issue I believe is holding back item design is the reluctance to make tons of actives. This is completely justified because honestly, do we want the game to become overloaded with strong active items? More buttons to press doesn't necessarily equate to more gameplay but does result in more difficult execution which detracts from enjoyment. On the flip side, fully passive items struggle to offer interesting gameplay so we have a conundrum.

Another issue is that even the active items struggle to change when and where a champion is able to engage enemies. Generally it's just a flat boost to your ability to engage enemies no matter the situation.

Finally, another problem is that because most items benefit you in every situation, it's hard or impossible to give a variety of options to champions that the player feels like they should have. For example, ADCs have very limited defensive/survival options in order to give them enough vulnerability to justify their sustained damage scaling. Unfortunately, it makes them frustrating to play in some ways. But if they had more survival options that worked in all situations, they'd be broken.

Now look at Raptor Cloak. It is fully passive but it only activates in a specific situation. This changes the when and where. That is arguably more interesting than most actives because it makes you think about where you want to engage opponents, which compels you to take different actions than you would otherwise take, trying to bait them to fight you under certain conditions rather than just anywhere. Of course, ideally you want to fight near your turrets in the first place, but this item expands that to enemy turrets. A tank can move faster when diving, which is incredibly valuable.

There are so many other situations that exist in the game, and thus potential for other interesting items.

  • A passive that scales off number of nearby allied minions. It could buff pretty much any stat you want and be an interesting passive.
  • A passive that reduces your mana costs while near an allied turret. This would be a sustain option if you're able to freeze your lane.
  • A passive that activates while unseen by enemies. For roamers probably. Maybe don't have it deactivate when spotted by wards, as that could add too much utility.
  • A passive that triggers when an enemy is detected by one of your (or maybe your team's) wards.
  • A passive that triggers when you attack the same enemy as one of your allies. Would be useful in small fights, and useful for focus fire in teamfights. Maybe needs diminishing returns per user to limit teamfight power.

Stuff to be wary of:

  • Passives that scale off nearby allied champs. This would be similar to when Aegis of the Legion was stronger. People would buy it and 5 man group for the whole game. In my experience (from both LoL and DotA) things that encourage 5 man grouping are hard to balance.
  • Passives that allow you to infer ward placement or enemy position as a side effect. This is such a powerful utility that it's pretty much impossible to balance when it is a side effect of the main effect.
  • Passives that subvert fundamental gameplay. For example, something that makes you stronger for being in a pack of enemy minions. This subverts the fundamental gameplay that your opponent would normally use. It's bad design.

Riot, I'm sure you can think of more interesting things than I did. I just think the concept of situational passives has a lot of potential.

64 Comments

FyshinaTux4 votes

Honestly, the whole item set in LoL needs a complete overhaul. A few tweaks, additions, removals, etc. is not going to fix the itemization problem in League.

Khristophoros5 votes

Honestly, the whole item set in LoL needs a complete overhaul. A few tweaks, additions, removals, etc. is not going to fix the itemization problem in League.

We've seen them overhaul entire systems, or entire champions, and it has never been a complete fix. There's always a new set of issues after you do a full overhaul.

I think it's better to slowly improve a system. Honestly the system we have works. The game is fun enough to be as popular as it is, as much as some of us might hate the current item system. So it's not exactly broken. It could use improvements but that will always be the case even if they completely redo it.

FyshinaTux1 votes

One of the reasons that overhauling champions is never a complete fix, is because those champions still exist in a game that has a broken item set that doesn't offer proper itemization choices. So they're constrained to a set number of build paths that simply don't offer what they need.

Fix the itemization issue by overhauling AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL items (not just this one here, and that one over there...) and then balance the champions, and the runes, and the masteries, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Khristophoros4 votes

One of the reasons that overhauling champions is never a complete fix, is because those champions still exist in a game that has a broken item set that doesn't offer proper itemization choices. So they're constrained to a set number of build paths that simply don't offer what they need.

Fix the itemization issue by overhauling AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL items (not just this one here, and that one over there...) and then balance the champions, and the runes, and the masteries, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

It's easy to think you should just throw everything out and start over, but I believe it's a heavily flawed approach in almost every situation. It's very resource intensive and not guaranteed to result in enough improvement to be worth it.

FyshinaTux2 votes

The simple fact that people can't decide whether defenses are even worth it anymore should be enough to show that itemization is horrid. You find yourself, in some situations, requiring more MR than you can reasonably build, even as a tank this can happen.

Having only two MAJOR MR items that are viable on a tank (no, Abyssal Scepter is NOT an appropriate "tank" item...) is a HUGE flaw in the game. Don't get me wrong, I understand that we don't want to go back to the days of Season II where hyper-tanks were the rulers of the Rift, but the current itemization for damage is just WAY too overpowering...

If you want my opinion, (and one of the things I'm going to try to do when I sit down and come up with a proper item set for League in the coming weeks) we need more penetration items, with FAR lower penetration amounts. An example would be as follows:

Have 2 Armor penetration items (% based) that give relatively low AD (they're literally JUST there for the penetration, making them situational, which would push this whole "constructive decision making" that Riot is pushing on us), that you would have to buy both of if you were against an enemy with Armor, or your AD would do piddly squat.

On the other hand, you would have items more geared toward straight AD if the enemy does NOT build any armor; and items geared more toward Lifesteal in case you need some extra sustain. I think that the lifesteal would have to be tweaked a bit in how the mechanic works though, so as to avoid LS stacking and people saying it's garbage due to lack of damage, or people simply building 1 LS item each game with a crap ton of damage... I don't know, things to think about while I toil away in the coming weeks.

Khristophoros3 votes

Defense sucks because they nerfed it.

I agree that defense can't return as it was before, but how about in a form like I'm describing here? What if you could be situationally tanky and there were clear visual indicators about when and where it was happening?

As for tank champions themselves, I believe we should just get rid of % penetration and then tune champions so that only low mobility tanks can be super tanky in all situations, but create itemization options that allow everyone to have specific situations where either their tankiness or general ability to survive is increased.

FyshinaTux2 votes

That seems a bit too complicated man. I mean, I like the idea, but I can see bugs out the arse and people saying "I'm supposed to be tanky around the [whatever the trigger is] and I wasn't... WTF RITO FIX NAO"

I can see that happening SOOO much if they tried implementing something like that.

As for having a complete removal of % pen, that would just bring back the meta of Hyper-Tanks like Mundo and Volibear again. Just stack to 300-400 Armor and MR and laugh as they try to cut you with their piddly little flat penetration amounts... Why not have higher flat pen amounts? Because people would be doing true damage to anybody that isn't a tank. Simple as that.

Khristophoros4 votes

Certain champs are supposed to be really hard to kill though. They lack the mobility that allows other champions to survive.

Teridax684 votes

I don't think the problem here has so much to do with defense items being bad, but rather with marksman itemization being too stat-oriented. ADC itemization is the least diverse of all, mainly because some of its core items, item 3031 and item 3035 , are stat sticks. Although we have item 3087 , whose awesome passive encourages moving around and kiting, we still have item 3046 , which offers the exact same stats in higher amounts but with a much less interesting unique effect. It's also harmful to low-mobility marksmen, since high-mobility ADCs can get comparable amounts of damage, but with much better escape/kiting potential on top. We need a more diverse set of marksman items that offer less raw damage and give alternative forms of power instead.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Eh idk. item 3153 and item 3078 are alot more than stat sticks. Along with item 3087 as you said. Then there's also the super situational item 3142 . They added some more depth to item 3072 too by having it grant that shield.

So really it just comes down to whether or not item 3031 and item 3035 should be stat sticks or not. And given their roles I think it's appropriate for them to be stat sticks instead of items with interesting mechanics like the others.

Teridax682 votes

You're right, I don't think Blade of the Ruined King could ever be qualified as a stat stick, if only because it's one of the rare items marksmen build that has an active. Trinity Force is also an all-around awesome item with a set of unique effects that synergize really well with each other. Ghostblade is something you may occasionally see on Lucian , Graves or Vayne , but otherwise it's mostly picked on melee champions.

Generally, I don't think any item should be a stat stick (and there are a few even in AP itemization), and the more central an item is to a class of champions, the more gameplay it should have. The gold-generating support item lines and new jungler items have massive amounts of gameplay, and significantly enriched the gameplay of each role. Bruisers and tanks, who mostly itemize in reaction to the enemy team, have access to tons of different items with unique and interesting bonuses or actives (item 3074 is core to a lot of melee AD champions and has a ton of gameplay). Even mages and AP assassins get to play around with active items and cool effects more often, despite item 3089 itself being a stat stick on par with Infinity Edge, and generally have a lot more freedom in their build options. Although it's appropriate for IE and Last Whisper to be stat sticks in the current state of itemization, that's also because ADC items are designed to be completely focused on statistical optimization (also heavily dependent on crit, which needs an overhaul). I'd have more fun picking an Infinity Edge with less raw stats but that offered additional gameplay, than the IE we have now, and I think it's worth changing the state of marksman itemization so that the main concern shouldn't be the statistical efficiency of an item, but rather the unique contribution it makes to the wielder, along with the options and gameplay it opens up.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Ah alright, I see what you mean. Never really thought of it that way. Instead of my "this is the best state for such an item" view you have a "does this item really need to exist for this role?" view. And now that I think about it, you're probably right. If Marksmen are balanced around the fact that they will buy IE and LW then perhaps they both should be removed so true customization in itemization can be achieved. Because as it stands, there are few, if any, that are as viable without IE in their build compared to those that need it to be relevant. Same holds true for Last Whisper when the enemy team actually has armor, but how do you get around that with an interesting item effect? Or perhaps they shouldn't have % pen at all and have everything be more armor shred based? Maybe that's something that can be made into support or tank items. Heck, Black Cleaver already exists. I don't see why a single role should have an answer to everything anyway.

Well first things first though. If IE is gone, how do Marksmen be Marksmen? Straight buffs to the champions themselves? Their items? New role specific items (like Runaan's)? All three? As much as I'd love to see more items for ADC's, is there anything else they could have that wouldn't just be a DPS increase?

On a somewhat random note, a thought for Last Whisper just popped into my head.

Active: (Ranged) For 3 seconds, your basic attacks will fire enchanted shots that deal 20 + 10% bonus AD as physical damage and grants you 40% armor penetration against all targets struck for 10 seconds. (30 second cooldown).

Active: (Melee) Fires out enchanted arrows that strike all nearby enemy champions (in a somewhat large AoE), dealing 50 + 25% bonus AD as physical damage and grants you 40% armor penetration against all marked targets for 10 seconds. (30 second cooldown).

Just an idea. 40% cuz it's an active that isn't always up like the previous Last Whisper. Also have the idea that all allies that have Last Whisper will share the marks, meaning if an ally marks a target and you have Last Whisper you'd gain the penetration buff against them too. Might as well make it % shred then? Idk.

Teridax681 votes

Instead of my "this is the best state for such an item" view you have a "does this item really need to exist for this role?" view.

I think it's a bit of both, actually. On one hand, Infinity Edge and Last Whisper are currently essential to the marksman role (removing those items would destroy ADCs), but on the other they're both really boring, no-brainer items that focus way too much on raw stats and not enough on actual gameplay. If every stat stick in the game got replaced with a more interesting item that occupied the same niche (or multiple competing items with their own specialties), itemization as a whole would a lot better for it.

If IE is gone, how do Marksmen be Marksmen?

That's the big question. I don't think IE should be thrown out the window entirely, however: if it offered the same amount of power but in a more interesting way, for example, it would be fine. I think it could also benefit a lot from an overhaul to crit, which currently has a lot of issues (namely, its huge unreliability in small to medium amounts).

Straight buffs to the champions themselves?

This could be a possibility. In a world with less stat-intensive marksman itemization, ADCs could receive stat buffs to compensate. However, I don't think that needs to happen, even if all marksmen end up dealing less damage, since they'd be able to have more power in other areas. Currently, the damage output of marksman tends to be a bit bonkers, to the point where they eclipse all other classes in the late game: while that's sort of the point of marksmen (start out weak, end up really strong), I feel they could afford to have some power moved around so that they still maintain their ability to close games via pushing power and great DPS, but don't outdamage mage spells with their autoattacks, or have to be the centerpiece of their team 24/7.

Their items? New role specific items (like Runaan's)? All three?

I would really like to see item 3085 become viable some day. It's always been kept in a suboptimal state where only on-hit marksmen can make good use of it (and even then, every other alternative is better), under the argument that AoE damage is an "alternative fantasy" for marksmen. There are a few ADCs out there who are heavily AoE-focused (MissFortune , Twitch and Graves especially), so I don't think that argument entirely holds. Ideally, we could end up with a lot more niche items like Runaan's that would open up new gameplay options for marksmen.

As much as I'd love to see more items for ADC's, is there anything else they could have that wouldn't just be a DPS increase?

I strongly believe so, and I think even DPS increases can be rich with gameplay. For example, you could make an autoattacker item that used item 3124 's stack system to build up attack damage and attack speed over time, and that would be a way of providing tons of marksman-oriented stats while still having a lot of gameplay.

Active: (Ranged) For 3 seconds, your basic attacks will fire enchanted shots that deal 20 + 10% bonus AD as physical damage and grants you 40% armor penetration against all targets struck for 10 seconds. (30 second cooldown). Active: (Melee) Fires out enchanted arrows that strike all nearby enemy champions (in a somewhat large AoE), dealing 150 + 50% bonus AD as physical damage and grants you 40% armor penetration against all marked targets for 10 seconds. (30 second cooldown). Just an idea. 40% cuz it's an active that isn't always up like the previous Last Whisper. Also have the idea that all allies that have Last Whisper will share the marks, meaning if an ally marks a target and you have Last Whisper you'd gain the penetration buff against them too. Might as well make it % shred then? Idk

That could be one way of going about it, but I think Last Whisper's biggest problem is that it doesn't really fit a proper niche: it's meant to counter armor stacking, but is so good against even base armor that it just gets picked to amplify damage against everyone, including squishies. It doesn't necessarily need an active, but it does need its identity as an anti-tank item reinforced (without hard-countering tanks altogether either). Generally, penetration stats, both flat and percentile, need an update, and I think a better resist pen system would allow LW to have more of an identity.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Hm, I could actually see Rageblade recieve a slight marksman focused rework and make a glorious return as one of the highest straight DPS items for a marksman. Just ditch the LS, SV and AP and I think it'd be just fine. Massive damage increase at max stacks?

And yeah i agree with the Last Whisper thing. I think it really comes down to: Does % armor penetration need to exist at all? Can't defense just be tuned to the lack of % pen? In the case of full AD comps I can see why it'd be needed. But I think that's your own team's fault for going full AD in the first place.

GoldenLeSpoink4 votes

I think they should more items that are ranged specific, such as Runnans and Ravenous Hydra. One of my item ideas was: (Name of Item) [Melee Only] 35 Attack Damage 15 Armor ( or Magic Resist not sure) Unique Passive Aura: When enemy champions are near you, you will gain 3%/6%/9%/12%/15% bonus Attack Damage. Unique Active: When a target ally champion is selected, you will gain the allies Armor(Magic Resist not sure yet) for 5 seconds. Note: You can probably change it to that when you pick an ally champion they will gain the amount of armor/magic resist that you have to them.

General Keith2 votes

That's actually a great idea, it makes ADC's that are paired with a tanky support have much more diversity in their builds. But if you were with a Janna or Sona, you wouldn't buy it. Great idea

WhereTheNamesAt1 votes

15% bonus AD??? Might as well call this league of 1 shots...

General Keith1 votes

Nah, I'm talking more about the Active side. I don't think the % Bonus AD would balanced at all. But the Active is just brilliant

GoldenLeSpoink1 votes

The passive is kind of iff, but I can make it probably just ½ everything making the last around 6-7%

doubleguac1 votes

The active looks even harder to balance than the passive. It would be disgustingly snowbally. Imagine a team with a fed hecarim and a fed Fiora. The enemy team is already probably behind, and now they're fighting a fed fiora who has a 200+ armor steroid that lasts 5 seconds.

It would allow champions to build pure offense while scaling off a tank's defense. This is a really bad idea.

Champion Skin1 votes

Or imagine if it was a RammusRammus so much armor/mr to share

General Keith1 votes

There would definitely need to be some number adjustments, no doubt, but the basic concept could be quite interesting. Make it a very low percentage of the target's armor/mr so you have to use it on a Mundo, or Rammus for it to do any good. I dunno, the basic concept just sounded cool to me.

Tis a nice day1 votes

You still need to be in the middle of the enemy team, and if you really have that much AD to oneshot people, you probably don't have that much survivability.

LupusNox1 votes

Really dont want to fight against the vayne/malphite lane where vayne has 400+ AD and 400+ armor...

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

So like, the opposite of Zeke's Herald?

sam fking 13 votes

upvoted because i was told so by the force

aperson13 votes

How about a "tether" type of passive that's something like - the closest allied champion in X range gains some bonus to a combat stat, where X is a meaningfully short range. Or maybe it's a buff that always applies to an ally, only affects them in X range and could be reactivated to select another ally for the buff (but on a long term level, think like Kalista's Black Spear). Maybe even, if an enemy comes between you and your ally, the tether and buff is destroyed for a few seconds.

I think that it could be an interesting item for supports - there is decision making for you with who you want to be next to over the course of the fight. And the enemy can be conscious of the item and attempt to disrupt your positioning.

Chaotic Reks3 votes

item 3124

Teridax682 votes

More buttons to press doesn't necessarily equate to more gameplay but does result in more difficult execution which detracts from enjoyment.

This is true, and I think that applies to a few items already in the game, namely cleanse items. Unlike item 3157 , which allows the user to anticipate an enemy's abilities and pre-emptively dodge critical damage or CC, item 3140 and item 3222 are both completely reactive, and often hard-counter plays that are far more difficult and should be far more rewarding to prerform (Ashe and Varus suffer whenever Mikael's Crucible is popular, due to how it negates their ultimates).

Ideally, situational power on items should cater to different playstyles and both produce and answer to different strategies, but they should provide soft power (i.e. options that make you better at what you want to do, but that the enemy can still react to and play around) rather than hard power (doing something that denies your opponent or limits their options without them having a say in the matter).

Thoughts on some of the passives you're suggesting:

A passive that scales off number of nearby allied minions. It could buff pretty much any stat you want and be an interesting passive.

I don't think having a passive that scales with a number of minions might work, though a passive that procs just upon joining a minion wave might. There's a lot of variance in how many minions you can have around at the time (between just one to literally over a dozen), and unlike item 2053 , whose movespeed is tied to a single highly visible landmark, it's overly complicated to have to count the exact number of minions to precisely gauge you or your opponent's power while in combat. A minion wave as one entity, on the other hand, would be a visible enough unit to communicate the passive's effect clearly ("fighting me in my minion wave puts you at a disadvantage").

A passive that reduces your mana costs while near an allied turret. This would be a sustain option if you're able to freeze your lane.

This would make a good anti-sieger item, though it also has the potential to seriously stall the game (siege defenders are typically forced to back once they run out of mana, and that's a victory for the sieger who won the war of attrition). I'm no playtester, but I have a hunch an item like this, if it becomes popular, would extend game times whenever it's picked.

A passive that activates while unseen by enemies. For roamers probably. Maybe don't have it deactivate when spotted by wards, as that could add too much utility.

I definitely agree that we need more roamer items beyond just item 3117 . This would be perfect for assassins and counterjunglers.

A passive that triggers when an enemy is detected by one of your (or maybe your team's) wards.

I'm not entirely sure about this, since catching an enemy unawares with a ward already tends to lead to a kill in the late game. I also don't feel too comfortable tying more power to what is already a mostly invisible source of power.

A passive that triggers when you attack the same enemy as one of your allies. Would be useful in small fights, and useful for focus fire in teamfights. Maybe needs diminishing returns per user to limit teamfight power.

This would be perfect for supports and who want to itemize for damage while still benefiting their team. Implementing a mechanic similar to Kalista 's, where you select an ally to interact with and give the passive a cooldown, would add awesome gameplay. While this is a bit tangential, I think this could potentially be the best way to rework item 3050 .

cshakes1 votes

What would you think of making Crucible into a spell shield? (With a short duration, so as to not make it OP.) They could just recolor Morg's spell shield particle to gold.

Teridax681 votes

Turning cleanse items (and maybe even item 3102 ) into active spell shields (more like Sivir 's Spell Shield than Morgana 's Black Shield, though) would make them a lot more interactive and interesting, and would certainly help address the issue of CC-focused ultimates (that aren't knockup) being too easily countered. This would, however, also warrant changing a few ults, namely massively damaging point-and-click CC abilities such as Malzahar 's Nether Grasp (it's impossible to counter without QSS, but is itself hard-countered by the Quicksilver active) or Warwick 's Infinite Duress. In the end, I think whichever anti-spell items are in the game need to be able to offer really satisfying moments where you get to block otherwise fatal CC, but don't just end up buying a get-out-of-jail-free card against important crowd control abilities.

cshakes2 votes

Yeah, definitely more like Sivir's spell shield :P Or maybe one item being a spell shield (blocks next spell/CC/whatever within X seconds), while another item is more Black Shield -like? (grants CC immunity for 1 second, or another low value) If the items were self cast only, it'd also help with diversifying support builds, and making ADC itemization more diverse ("hmm, which defensive item should I pick? GA, Scimitar or Banshee's?" vs "Yo Leona, buy Mikael's")

Honestly, I think that Warwick should just be reworked completely. For Malzahar, maybe just make it a regular tether ability (think Fiddlesticks' Drain), with at most a slow attached? (Disclaimer: I don't play either of these champions.)

Teridax682 votes

Yeah, Warwick definitely needs a rework (ZenonTheStoic is working on him, and posted a really nice tentative kit a few months ago), and Malzahar probably needs a couple of changes too, as he's currently fairly binary (and not just because of his ultimate: his point-and-click E deserves more interesting gameplay as well).

I also agree that Mikael's is currently harmful to ADC item diversity in competitive play: if it didn't exist, item 3139 would be a lot more popular, but even in Preseason 5 supports are still expected to provide extra inventory space for their teammates (especially the carry) to some degree. In an ideal League, supports should be completely free to decide whether they want to boost their personal utility and damage (via AP), fill out on utility they're missing as the situation demands (via specific bonuses), or do a bit of both (via AP/utility hybrid items like item 3060 or item 3092), whereas marksmen should be able to fill out on utility / survivability if they're lacking in it without becoming less useful, perhaps at a cost in less overall damage for all marksman builds (so champions with tons of kiting potential like Lucian and Kalista don't just outperform less survivable marksmen such as KogMaw and Ashe by dint of having crucial bonuses that the latter have no access to).

Khristophoros1 votes

Turning cleanse items (and maybe even item 3102 ) into active spell shields (more like Sivir 's Spell Shield than Morgana 's Black Shield, though) would make them a lot more interactive and interesting, and would certainly help address the issue of CC-focused ultimates (that aren't knockup) being too easily countered. This would, however, also warrant changing a few ults, namely massively damaging point-and-click CC abilities such as Malzahar 's Nether Grasp (it's impossible to counter without QSS, but is itself hard-countered by the Quicksilver active) or Warwick 's Infinite Duress. In the end, I think whichever anti-spell items are in the game need to be able to offer really satisfying moments where you get to block otherwise fatal CC, but don't just end up buying a get-out-of-jail-free card against important crowd control abilities.

There are ways to counter Malz and WW ults without the hard counter items.

Malz has a 0.25s cast time before the channel begins, and if he casts W and E first he spends 0.5s total between them before he actually begins to ult. This gives you 0.75s total to react.

If you have an interrupt, you actually can interrupt these ults even when they target you. Normal abilities (non-channeled) cannot be interrupted so you time it such that his ult channel begins during the cast time of your interrupt. Your cast time will complete even though you get suppressed and then it will interrupt him out of his channel.

WW's ult is instant and longer range so it has less counterplay, but still has some. When Tristana's Buster Shot was the same exact range, it was the perfect ability to counter WW ult. When Trist saw WW running at her, intending to ult, she could simply target him with R. When the two champions came into range, both abilities would begin to activate. WW's ult instantly, so he'd teleport to her and begin channeling. The cast time of Buster Shot would complete a moment later and interrupt WW + push him away.

Now though, Buster Shot scales with her passive so she outranges WW and it won't always work out that way. But considering the cast time and travel time it can still work out the same way if WW manages to begin channeling before it hits him.

Teridax682 votes

There are ways to counter Malz and WW ults without the hard counter items.

Malz has a 0.25s cast time before the channel begins, and if he casts W and E first he spends 0.5s total between them before he actually begins to ult. This gives you 0.75s total to react.

... which isn't very much. Even mega-bursty assassins like Zed and Katarina give you more time to react. That also doesn't prevent his abilities from being undodgeable in most cases once you're in range.

If you have an interrupt, you actually can interrupt these ults even when they target you. Normal abilities (non-channeled) cannot be interrupted so you time it such that his ult channel begins during the cast time of your interrupt. Your cast time will complete even though you get suppressed and then it will interrupt him out of his channel.

Except you can't interrupt the ult while you yourself are suppressed, and most champions don't have interrupts. If the only way to avoid the full effect of a channel is to splinch it via animation delay, that doesn't really say much in favor of the ability's counterplay.

WW's ult is instant and longer range so it has less counterplay, but still has some. When Tristana's Buster Shot was the same exact range, it was the perfect ability to counter WW ult. When Trist saw WW running at her, intending to ult, she could simply target him with R. When the two champions came into range, both abilities would begin to activate. WW's ult instantly, so he'd teleport to her and begin channeling. The cast time of Buster Shot would complete a moment later and interrupt WW + push him away. Now though, Buster Shot scales with her passive so she outranges WW and it won't always work out that way. But considering the cast time and travel time it can still work out the same way if WW manages to begin channeling before it hits him.

Not every champion is Tristana . Again, counterplay is something that should be widely available, and not just something you can only do if you have the exact item or ability. Skillshots tend to have great counterplay because anyone, even KogMaw , can dodge them, for example. As a matter of fact, you could test counterplay by passing it through the Kog'Maw test: if a Kog'Maw without items or summoner spells can find a way to mitigate, avoid, suitably punish or recover from the use of an ability or combo, then that ability or combo definitely has counterplay. Even against a fed ulting Zed, Kog'Maw can still make plays that will limit his effectiveness and soft-counter his abilities, but once Malzahar or Warwick get in range, there's nothing he can do.

Khristophoros1 votes

Except you can't interrupt the ult while you yourself are suppressed, and most champions don't have interrupts. If the only way to avoid the full effect of a channel is to splinch it via animation delay, that doesn't really say much in favor of the ability's counterplay.

It's easier to take advantage of animation delays than you think. It's a matter of prediction.

But yeah WW is dumb and not many champions can reliably prevent his ult 1v1.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

It's easier to take advantage of animation delays than you think. It's a matter of prediction.

If Kog Maw can take advantage of the animation delay then sure. If not, then nope, error 404 counterplay not found.

Khristophoros1 votes

It's easier to take advantage of animation delays than you think. It's a matter of prediction.

If Kog Maw can take advantage of the animation delay then sure. If not, then nope, error 404 counterplay not found.

Well, Kog shouldn't get ulted by Malzahar unless he's out of position. Some of Malzahar's counterplay is in positioning. Kog wasn't given any hard CC because he can outrange and kite champions like Malzahar.

But that's Malzahar. The amount of counterplay once he's in range to ult is appropriate considering the challenges he has in getting in range safely. WW is just dumb though, like I keep saying.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Sounds like it takes more luck than skill. Noone is gonna predict a .25 second cast time. Quicksilver seems more appropriate in every case of click target, 0.25s delay suppression.

Khristophoros2 votes

[deleted]

Teridax681 votes

I think visual indicators could be implemented that would show the intensity of the buff. For example, if it buffs defenses, some kind of glowing protective-looking aura that gets brighter the more benefit the passive is currently giving.

That could work, but then, what is the intent behind having the passive scale with minions? What is the value-added of each minion past the first, and what strategy is that meant to encourage that a more simplistic passive wouldn't?

Well think about it this way. Say Anivia uses it. Is there really a difference between this and Athene's (or right now double morello) Anivia? Well, in the anti-siege situation, not really. The difference is that she is actually weaker in other situations with the item I'm suggesting. I want to suggest more situational and interesting mana sustain options because right now people just get a ton of unconditional regen and it's pretty boring and lacking in strategic decision making. I think ideally they should move away from unconditional mana sustain because it leads to mana itself being trivialized.

I completely agree that item 3174 (and, more specifically, item 3028) is an antiquated item that is made redundant by the recent changes to mana regen, but I disagree that anti-siege mana regen has no real problems just because it's more situational. item 3165 might give stronger mana regen overall, but this item you propose would be exceptionally powerful against siegers: you'd have to either buff the effect so that it surpasses Morellonomicon when under siege, which risks leading to abusive mana regen in that precise situation, or you'd just be giving it comparable regen with more difficult access, in which case there's no real advantage to picking the item for regen over any other item 3114 item.

I do, however, agree that mana and mana itemization is not in the best spot. It's boring, doesn't make that much of an appreciable contribution to gameplay (even though it does help), and is seriously devalued in the late game where mana regen is sufficiently high to ensure practically no champion has mana problems. However, I think mana regen is in a much better spot: itemizing for mana regen has a tangible impact on gameplay (you get to use abilities a lot more freely and often), and now that the stat starts out weaker and scales into the late game, it ensures easier spellcasting all around without completely trivializing mana costs. Ideally, eliminating mana problems through regen should be a commitment similar to building CDR, where you'd have to build multiple items to have near-unlimited spellcasting availability (which is why Mana Font, which was originally designed to single-handedly eliminate mana problems, doesn't work). By contrast, mana itemization should perhaps add some other kind of power that also enhances quality of play, besides allowing for a few extra spellcasts.

I think it would be fine because again, this would be instead of a less situational item you could have bought instead. For example, if it gives you movement speed to help you catch the spotted enemy, that's similar to having Righteous Glory or Shurelya's. The difference being you had to make a more specific strategic choice because this item works specifically for helping you make picks, rather than giving you mobility in a huge variety of situations.

Situationality doesn't equate to better gameplay, though. If I had an item that situationally enabled me to one-shot tanks, and was near-useless aside from that specific situation where you instantly kill your opponent from full health, perhaps it could still have more general alternatives that would be just as viable, but the gameplay to the item itself would be terrible. My issue is not so much with the amount of power you want to give to this passive (though I don't think an effect like this can be too powerful, given the already massive strength of wards), but rather with the core functionality of the passive in the first place. A item 3800 or a item 3092 active onto a target revealed by a ward is okay, because the victim gets to know exactly what hit them and could have suffered in the same way without the ward, but a passive power boost would be a lot harder to pinpoint (did I get caught by a ward, or is the champion who killed me that powerful? Where was the ward?). I didn't mention this in the above post, but it likely would also cause issues with passive power if you drop a ward in combat or in lane just to benefit from the effect. You could special-case it to avoid that, but that would also risk making the effect more confusing.

Khristophoros1 votes

That could work, but then, what is the intent behind having the passive scale with minions? What is the value-added of each minion past the first, and what strategy is that meant to encourage that a more simplistic passive wouldn't?

It means you are stronger if you're with a bunch of minions, which is a situation you can find by joining a big minion wave or pushing a lane until one forms. This means that you've invested in this situation, which means you are vulnerable outside of it. It's a strategic choice.

Situationality doesn't equate to better gameplay, though. If I had an item that situationally enabled me to one-shot tanks, and was near-useless aside from that specific situation where you instantly kill your opponent from full health, perhaps it could still have more general alternatives that would be just as viable, but the gameplay to the item itself would be terrible. My issue is not so much with the amount of power you want to give to this passive (though I don't think an effect like this can be too powerful, given the already massive strength of wards), but rather with the core functionality of the passive in the first place. A item 3800 or a item 3092 active onto a target revealed by a ward is okay, because the victim gets to know exactly what hit them and could have suffered in the same way without the ward, but a passive power boost would be a lot harder to pinpoint (did I get caught by a ward, or is the champion who killed me that powerful? Where was the ward?). I didn't mention this in the above post, but it likely would also cause issues with passive power if you drop a ward in combat or in lane just to benefit from the effect. You could special-case it to avoid that, but that would also risk making the effect more confusing.

Riot likes to put openings or periods of vulnerability in the game so that there are opportunities to attack. This is a shallow if you only do it by gating things with cooldowns or mana costs. You can make it more interesting by making it matter where the champion is or what is happening around the champion.

So it doesn't create new maneuvers or active things you do. It encourages you to seek a certain situation in which to engage opponents rather than just engage them whenever wherever just because you got strong enough off items.

This is interesting in its own way because you're thinking on a more strategic level. I think it's an important element to emphasize in the game.

Teridax681 votes

It means you are stronger if you're with a bunch of minions, which is a situation you can find by joining a big minion wave or pushing a lane until one forms. This means that you've invested in this situation, which means you are vulnerable outside of it. It's a strategic choice.

Okay, but then if this is meant to reward you for committing to a lane and shoving it hard, why tie the bonus to minions at all? It's just as possible to pop into a lane, kill every minion you find, and shove equally hard, or spearhead a lane and push it to the enemy tower as it's still moving, but then you'd end up with a weaker or nonexistent bonus. It's also equally possible to pass by a massive pent-up group of minions without committing but still get huge benefits from it.

Riot likes to put openings or periods of vulnerability in the game so that there are opportunities to attack. This is a shallow if you only do it by gating things with cooldowns or mana costs. You can make it more interesting by making it matter where the champion is or what is happening around the champion.

I agree that situational bonuses could unlock new opportunities, but I disagree that building CDR or mana regen trivializes windows of vulnerability. Even Jax , who has clear windows of strength and vulnerability through his three-attack proc and his stun, is still clearly stronger and weaker at specific moments when he has massive amounts of attack speed and/or CDR. A 40% CDR Xerath or Velkoz with a Grail can poke a lane non-stop from a mile away, but both still provide clear windows of opportunity. Situationality is also not a silver bullet to providing additional gameplay: what matters, even more than the situational aspect of your bonus, is that it fosters interesting and fun gameplay. An effect that works in practically every situation, such as item 3069 or item 3153 's actives, can still be more fun than an improperly implemented situational bonus.

So it doesn't create new maneuvers or active things you do. It encourages you to seek a certain situation in which to engage opponents rather than just engage them whenever wherever just because you got strong enough off items.

Some situational effects genuinely do provide new strategies that you would not otherwise be able to do as well (the upcoming Zz'Rot Portal allows non-damage dealers to push lanes), and I think that's a good thing. I agree that situational bonuses should encourage the player to seek out unique opportunities, provided those events don't feel forced or too unusual (items should complement gameplay, not the other way around). I also don't think these bonuses have to be bound to engaging opponents: there are plenty of situations out of combat and parallel to combat that can be capitalized on.

Khristophoros2 votes

I don't think having a passive that scales with a number of minions might work, though a passive that procs just upon joining a minion wave might. There's a lot of variance in how many minions you can have around at the time (between just one to literally over a dozen), and unlike item 2053 , whose movespeed is tied to a single highly visible landmark, it's overly complicated to have to count the exact number of minions to precisely gauge you or your opponent's power while in combat. A minion wave as one entity, on the other hand, would be a visible enough unit to communicate the passive's effect clearly ("fighting me in my minion wave puts you at a disadvantage").

I think visual indicators could be implemented that would show the intensity of the buff. For example, if it buffs defenses, some kind of glowing protective-looking aura that gets brighter the more benefit the passive is currently giving.

This would make a good anti-sieger item, though it also has the potential to seriously stall the game (siege defenders are typically forced to back once they run out of mana, and that's a victory for the sieger who won the war of attrition). I'm no playtester, but I have a hunch an item like this, if it becomes popular, would extend game times whenever it's picked.

Well think about it this way. Say Anivia uses it. Is there really a difference between this and Athene's (or right now double morello) Anivia? Well, in the anti-siege situation, not really. The difference is that she is actually weaker in other situations with the item I'm suggesting. I want to suggest more situational and interesting mana sustain options because right now people just get a ton of flat regen and it's pretty boring and lacking in strategic decision making. I think ideally they should move away from unconditional mana sustain because it leads to mana itself being trivialized.

I'm not entirely sure about this, since catching an enemy unawares with a ward already tends to lead to a kill in the late game. I also don't feel too comfortable tying more power to what is already a mostly invisible source of power.

I think it would be fine because again, this would be instead of a less situational item you could have bought instead. For example, if this gives you movement speed to help you catch the spotted enemy, that's similar to having Righteous Glory or Shurelya's. The difference being you had to make a more specific strategic choice because this item works specifically for helping you make picks, rather than giving you mobility in a huge variety of situations.

Actually, side note... Righteous Glory is a great example of the concept I'm talking about in this thread even though it's not a passive. So it wasn't accurate of me to say that this is a concept only for passive items. But anyway, it is situational because it only works for approaching enemies. So it fits in this paradigm.

Jesus is Savior1 votes

Yeah sure, have an upvote. I too dislike spamming 5 buttons before I've even used any of my skills.

cshakes2 votes

Only 5? Wow so noob. You need at least 7 actives: item 3069 item 2045 item 3023 item 3190 item 3222 item 3143 item 3364 (The aforementioned is actually a completely legit Janna build against multiple stealth comps. Akali + Rengar + Vayne, that sort of thing.)

doubleguac1 votes

The main problem I see with the kind of situational passives that you are describing is that it is impossible to estimate their gold value, since any number of factors can result in such a passive either being useless or very strong.

A good example is Morellonomicon. Morellonomicon is an incredibly cost-efficient CDR item for mages, even if you ignore its passive. Against plenty of team comps, and on plenty of champions, its passive is practically useless. However, it's incredibly powerful in very niche situations. A morellonomicon will, for instance, totally screw over a champion like Volibear. But, since GW has practically no effect on most of the champions in the game (aside from ADCs, though the effect here is still pretty minimal), the passive isn't "priced" very highly--like I said, the item would be gold efficient even without its passive.

So you end up with an item that is way too cost efficient against champions who are actually effected by its passive. If you simply increased its cost, so that it wasn't so brokenly cost efficient against swain/voli/mundo/etc., then people would go back to always buying athenes over it, because most games don't have a swain/voli/mundo in them.

You might say, "ok, then it's just a niche item that people can buy against swain/voli/mundo, that's not necessarily a bad thing." That's fine, but if you start adding a ton of these niche items that are rarely bought, you end up with a bloated and intimidating item shop. Look at an items like Sword of the Divines or atmas impaler. Neither were bad items, they were both just so incredibly niche that they were hardly ever bought. They were good on the champions that could actually make use of them, but they were so niche that they ended up being simply removed.

I think some of your ideas are pretty cool, and I'm not at all opposed to adding some more situational passive items. But these sorts of things have to be designed incredibly carefully. If they're too niche/situational, then the item becomes impossible to price fairly across games. Spirit visage is an example of this sort of thing done right. It's a situational passive that sits in a really comfortable spot between "too niche" and universal.

Khristophoros3 votes

I don't see a problem with being unable to estimate gold efficiency. The problem with items now is the extreme focus on stats per gold. That is why build diversity sucks right now. Making that impossible to estimate is a great thing.

Now, the example of Sword of the Divine doesn't really match the concept I'm talking about. It was niche because it enabled certain gameplay on certain champions. It wasn't situational in terms of map positioning, timing, or other game-state situations. It was just an item that allowed certain champions to 100-0 people. It's absolutely not what I'm talking about in this thread.

Lemme put it this way. If Rengar or Malphite had Sword of the Divine, now they could 100-0 people. That wasn't restricted to any particular game situations. It was just now what the champion does because it has the item. So it wasn't interesting strategically.

doubleguac1 votes

Sorry, that was confusing--I wasn't trying to use sword of the divines or atmas as examples of items that had situational passives. I was using them as examples of items that, all things considered, were strong but balanced purchases on a small number of champions, but were removed because they were so niche that no one bought them. I was trying to demonstrate the danger of ultra-niche items.

I don't see a problem with being unable to estimate gold efficiency.

The problem is that it makes it nearly impossible to fairly price an item. Fair item pricing is a massive balance concern. With a stat stick, it's fairly obvious how expensive the item should be. With an item that has a niche situational passive, it can be very difficult to know exactly how strong it will be across different games, and thus it becomes hard to fairly price it. Which is a balance problem.

Go back to the morellonomicon example. The passive is useless in 9/10 situations, and incredibly powerful in 1/10 situations.

If you price the item so that its passive is appropriately expensive in the 1/10 situations where it is useful, then no one will buy the item. Before athenes was nerfed 30 times, Morello was never purchased, because most of the time, people didn't need the passive, and athenes was more cost efficient in regards to stats. Even in situations where the passive would have been strong, I still usually saw people buying athenes, because league players are creatures of habit.

If you price the item so that it's appropriately expensive in the 9/10 situations where the passive isn't useful, then the item is overpowered in the 1/10 situations where it is. This is morello's current state. Ignoring the passive completely, it's still the most cost efficient CDR item for AP mages. There's a good chance a ziggs will buy this item regardless of who he is up against. If he happens to be up against a Mundo or Volibear or Swain, the item provides way too much power for its cost.

The more "situational" a passive is, the harder the item becomes to fairly price.

I know this is impossible, but honestly, the best way to add these kinds of passives into the game would be to separate them from stat items completely. Instead of having the morello passive on an AP mage item, allow people to buy it as a homeguard-style enchantment, and apply it to any item. The passive is still incredibly niche, but it's much easier to price, because you know people are only buying it when they want the passive, specifically, rather than because they want the stats of the item it's attached to. There's no reason in particular why spirit visage's passive should be tied to an MR item instead of an armor item. There's no reason in particular why Morello's passive should be tied to an AP mage item, instead of a tank item, or an ad item, or a support item. Etc.

Khristophoros2 votes

The issue you're seeing is the situational passive is situational based on enemy champion picks.

The passives I'm suggesting are useful in game situations that can happen every game regardless of champion picks.

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