Yes, another Lee Sin thread, but hear me out.
Lee Sin's Resonating Strike deals 8% of his target's missing health when he hits, making it able to deal high damage even when he builds pure tank if one of his teammates softens up the victim first. It also gives him a powerful anti-tank attack that doesn't scale with offensive stats.
Couldn't that be changed to a flat damage cap like Nidalee's Takedown? That'd be way better balance.
Phife8 votes[deleted]
IcyPepper21 votesHe actually gave legitimate reasons for his concern. Can you try to back up your claim?
So tired of "X is OP" and "X isn't OP" in discussions if people won't actually discuss why that is.
Phife9 votesI am saying lee sin is not problematic, if he doesn't perform well within first 5min of the game he must build complete tank and deal near 0 damage due to him having 2 damage abilities. (of course im not counting his ult because its an Ultimate ability.) Usually junglers or any mid lane / top lane has multiple sources of damage and utility, lee's utility was scaled back so far and so irrationally that he is no longer than champion he was a year or 2 ago, flat out right and simple.
They nerfed Q damage they nerfed W shield value / cd / useage / utility, they nerfed his E atk speed slow / radius (range) and damage. And increased the CD and lowered the damage of his ult Multiple times.
Given he is still a viable pick doesn't mean he's broken or "OVER POWERED", he's just flexible. Given his kit no matter how much you nerf him he will remain a viable pick if you dont remake any of his abilities.
So when i get pissed off about people on boards complaining about lee sin being to strong or even overpowered understand my frustration, that there are about 30 more champions in front of lee sins "power levels" that should either be reduced or remade first before him.
Was that good enough?
darkdill5 votesHe's been high-tier for three seasons straight. Doesn't that tell you something's up?
Phife5 votesNo, because Being "high tier" isn't the same thing as being "broken OP" that everyone claims him to be.
Eedat6 votesLee sin isnt even high tier anymore. He's barely clinging on to mid-tier
Phife2 votesThats what im saying.
Major Sparkles3 votesActually that is not what you were saying..
Nucleophilic atk2 votesRight, that is why everyone picks him. Because he is garbage.
JustMyBassCannon4 votesHe's been popular for three seasons straight. He's been viable for three seasons straight. I can't think of a single time when Lee Sin was actually the best option, or even in the top five (again, talking strength, not popularity).
And I've been watching him for those three seasons.
Angry Monster1 votesman you must of never seen LCS.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesLeaving aside the fact that I pay more attention to LCS statistics than actually watching LCS, I've noticed that he shows up in LCS. I've also noticed that, despite showing up, he's not actually overbearing. His appearance is more expected than dreaded, and players--especially at LCS level--have learned how to handle him.
This community really needs to stop the whole "hate any champion that shows up in LCS, especially Lee Sin" pile of shit.
iamleburk1 votesi think the point was that he has been a top five junglier pick a couple of times, at least in the LCS.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesCool, cool, is there something actually wrong with a champion being one of the 5 most popular picks?
chumbler1 votesLeaving aside the fact that I pay more attention to LCS statistics than actually watching LCS, I've noticed that he shows up in LCS. I've also noticed that, despite showing up, he's not actually overbearing. His appearance is more expected than dreaded, and players--especially at LCS level--have learned how to handle him.
This community really needs to stop the whole "hate any champion that shows up in LCS, especially Lee Sin" pile of shit.
So why is it Lee Sin gets to skate away from nerfs when other champions get instantly kneecapped if they show up once in a tournament and aren't one of Riot's favorites? Like, say, Veigar.
PS Lee Sin is a complete shit design of a champion made by a complete idiot. Numbers don't change any of that.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesHe doesn't. He has been nerfed several times. The fact that he hasn't been completely fucking decimated by them doesn't mean he hasn't been nerfed.
Angry Monster1 votesFor patches 5.1 and 5.2 lee shared the spot with J4 in the LCS in all regions.
So how many times do other have to be nerfed before lee gets hit? Vi fell out the last part of season 4. She is just coming back cause everyone else has been nerfed. Lee has not been changed (meaningfully) but just fluctuates through seasons. Why should vi get nerefed for stand up at the end of the wackamole while lee has not been hit?
JustMyBassCannon1 votes[{quoted}](name=Kaosu Desu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A8xWTu4F,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000002,timestamp=2015-03-05T08:31:38.430+0000)
Why should vi get nerfed for stand up at the end of the wackamole while lee has not been hit?
Have you people ever read Lee Sin's patch history? He has two patches that are straight buffs, and one nerf reversion (the ward jump thing), and then every-fucking-thing else is either an overall nerf (a buff overtaken by a nerf) or a straight nerf.
Are you seriously trying to imply that Vi is a healthier design than Lee Sin?
Angry Monster1 votesYes vi is way healthier. When was the last time you saw a vi go into a fight and then jump out? Vi commits Lee does not.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesWhen I watched a Vi use her R to run to the guy at the back of the fight, then use her Q to run away with the whole team chasing her. It works really well.
Sailor Mint2 votes3% Ban rate. 6th highest pick/ban rate.
Knight SoIaire 1 voteswell man, your points are valid but you forgot about something called lead
lee sin might do good early because he ganks good, but that does not mean he needs to build tank straight away if he snowballs his base stats aquired by level can fill the gaps, and he can keep enemy carries down because he is borderline assasin
ofc this is fine with many other champions, but lee sin is the pinnacle of everything the term jack of all trades but master of none fits here ... well a fed lee sin is the master of every trade since his numbers are owerwhelming his enemies
its not like i agree with the nerf proposed by op
but lee sin is a generalist, so he will always be some kind of a problem elise is the same case, riot predicted her becoming a lee v2 and gutted her, now they think about a rework but they cant nail any role that she should man up but as far as she is a generalist she stays on their minds and is a problem, because with ballance changes she might explode (actualy she is a good jungler atm, new jungle items helped her a lot and she gets back to life), and if she doesnt she is just an useless champion that stays unused and riot neds to work on her
owerall what you called flexibility is a problem, it allows champions wiith little strenght easily outpower a big pool of champions just because they can do good in any situation
Phife1 votesFlexibility in my eyes isn't a problem as long as its not unique to one champ and one champ only.
Auz the Ripper2 votesBut that is the problem The only champion near as flexible as Lee Sin is Lee Sin
Knight SoIaire 1 voteswell that isnt true
flexibility can be equal to lack of counterplay
lets say your enemy is a sustaining champion, flexible champion can build for burst and counter him enemy is a tank, flexible champion gets sustain and arpen enemy relies on burst, flexible champ goes tanky
flexible champions tend to be able to change themselves, their builds and playstyles to give them an edge over anything they find
thats why i called this a problem, because flexible champion can be a viable counterpick to everything
thats why lee sin still is viable after all those nerfs, his numbers suck but he isnt gated by tools or role, so he always gets what is most effective in current situation and stands on equal with other champions, while other champions are limited to certain play patterns or builds that have weakneses enemies can exploit
UPfreely1 voteshe must build complete tank and deal near 0 damage due to him having 2 damage abilities. (of course im not counting his ult because its an Ultimate ability.)
this right here is complete horse shit. thats like saying riven does 0 damage cuz she has 2 damage abilities. but we all know what AD champs with empowered autos and extreme mobility bring to the table.
Dengeden2 votesAnd we all know how competitively viable Riven is (she isn't). The point is that Lee has to build tank if he falls behind, and only one of his abilities scales with tankiness. If he doesn't build AD, his damage will fall off, if he does, he's liable to get blown up.
UPfreely1 votesty captain obvious but you missed my point. he still can do quite a bit of damage even when he 'falls off' just because he isn't soloing a fed laner doesn't mean he does 0 damage.
Dengeden1 votesOf course he doesn't do 0 damage (that wouldn't make any sense) but his kit is still based around jumping into the enemy team. If he is behind on items, that doesn't bode well.
UPfreely1 votesanyone behind on items shouldn't be diving head first into the enemy team aside from maybe a leona or alistar(and even then it gets sketchy) i just dont get what you're trying to get at. any champion that's behind does more poorly, and most of the time you build a little tankier when you're behind, especially for melee. most melee 'jump into thew enemy team' as you put it, i dont get why you think lee is any worse off than other melee champs that fall behind. In fact, I'd argue that he stays more relevant than most melee champs that fall behind.
Dengeden1 votesOk, fair enough, Lee does need to position himself well for a good ult to make up for his lack of hard CC but I suppose it's true that he has more options when behind.
blujadajhdja1 votesHoly fk, is this even the same boards? What happened to all the QQ?
VardenSalad1 votesThe potential buffing of tank junglers.
Eedat16 votesOK you asked for it
Lee Sin is barely a middle of the pack jungler currently.
Lee Sin hasn't been the best option since the season 5 jungle rolled around. Lee Sin's win rate has plummeted to a steady 46%. And no, its not "because he has a high skill cap so low ELO players ruin his win rate". His win rate floats right around 46% all the way through Diamond. Here's his problem. He has a small window in the early game where he is strong before his high base damages start to fall off in the mid game. If he isn't successful in using this window, he falls off hard. He becomes a glorified damage sponge in the late game with an occasional #LC$BIGPLAYZ kick that gets himself killed almost everytime anyway. Other champions have the same window in the early game, but are much more useful in the mid to late game.
There are many junglers that do the job of disrupting the back line way better than him I.E. Vi, Jarvan, WW, Fiddle, etc. All of these junglers also have a better clear than him which is very important because the season 5 jungle is much tougher and repeated nerfs to machete in both price and stats have really taken a toll on a lot of junglers. A lot of junglers that are doing so well right now are only popular again because they can actually survive the jungle effectively. Jarvan had his bonus armor and decent clear (his winrate has dropped below 50% since the removal of his bonus armor by the way). Vi has a great clear and her passive shield. WW can keep himself topped off without potions. Fiddle never needs to back while he has mana. Has anyone every wondered why these junglers became so popular again overnight when season 5 rolled around? Its because a bunch of junglers struggle in the new jungle. Frequent backs and extra gold spent on a ton of potions put them at a severe disadvantage. Especially when Lee has poor scaling into teamfights/late game
Another problem that Lee Sin faces is that he just isnt that great in the high mobility meta. Do you know how difficult it is to land a Q on a mid/late game Kalista? Or Katarina? Or Ahri? Or Leblanc? Or Kassadin? Is it impossible? No. Is it easy to dodge his Q on such high mobility champions? Yes. People are always so quick to point out his early game strength, yet neglect to mention his mid/late game scaling is horrible if he's not snowballing. There are a dozen junglers that are ten times better to have than Lee in team fights.
His damage only scales with bonus AD as opposed to flat AD scaling. This means that he has zero damage scaling while he is building the tank items that are necessary for a bruiser while most other champions scale better with their flat scaling. Add this to the fact that the season 4 Lee Sin Trifecta (jungle item, sight stone, mobi boots) take far too long to complete now to be anywhere close to effective.
There is such a fuss going on about 'kicking Veigar while he's down' yet everyone wants to see Lee Sin nerfed into oblivion when he's in a worse spot than Veigar was. Why? Because Lee is used in the LCS? Even though that between EU and NA LCS he has a record of 11W-19L? Is a 37% win rate in the LCS and terrible SoloQ statistics really a sign that a champion warrants nerfs? Should we really just gut his entire kit because that time he ward jumped over a wall and got away? Or occasionally makes a flashy play with his ult? If you take away Lee's utility he's left with nothing.
So can we all take a chill pill? Lee Sin is not really a problem currently. I don't think he will be much of a problem in the near future either as RIOT is working on making jungle bruisers less viable. Emphasis on 'less' viable, not make them completely useless. Junglers that offer way more utility to a team are going to be buffed next patch and I doubt Lee will be able to keep up. That concludes my side of the argument. I hope everyone will give me the time to really think my points through. Feel free to voice your own opinions of course
IcyPepper4 votesYour points are well-thought out, hard to refute, and mind-opening. Thanks for sharing this with us!
idoki2 votesYou are the first person on the boards I see that actually knows what he's talking about when it comes to Lee Sin... People say he's always been a top-pick but they forget how meh he considered in the Bulwark tank meta of season 3 and I probably forgot other times as well... Lee Sin became popular again not because he's ZOMG OP FREELO but because other junglers just aren't remotely good, for example: 
. Same thing with 
in the pre-season: jungle sustain was atrocious, so Warwick became popular. People seem to have a really short memory term.
Best Lee Sin OH1 votesSOMEONE ON THE FORUMS THAT'S NOT A #NERFLEESIN BANDWAGONER?
DO MY EYES DECEIVE ME
GaleWinUnleashed1 votesWait... Is this an actual well-reasoned argument? ERROR: CANNOT COMPUTE
Eedat4 votesLee Sin is nowhere near OP currently
P.S. His % missing health damage will do nothing to a mid/late game tank with no armor pen P.S.S Since he is an initiator, the likelihood of him using his Q on a tank that is already low hp is very low P.S.S.S If your Lee is engaging onto the enemy tank and not a squishy target, you're pretty boned anyway
Anidan2 votesP.P.P.S... sorry, that just bothered me a bit. You're right, though, about Lee.
Spacesuit Spiff4 votesYeah, I don't think Lee needs that execute. Take it away and give it back to Khazix, who basically stopped being fun for me once he lost his ability to hop around a teamfight executing people like he was stomping Goombas.
Phife3 votesYes, another Lee Sin thread, but hear me out.
Lee Sin's Resonating Strike deals 8% of his target's missing health when he hits, making it able to deal high damage even when he builds pure tank if one of his teammates softens up the victim first. It also gives him a powerful anti-tank attack that doesn't scale with offensive stats.
Couldn't that be changed to a flat damage cap like Nidalee's Takedown? That'd be way better balance.
his Q deals % of missing health but still deals physical damage, meaning if someone has armor (IE. a tank, that damage is mitigated by about 50-70% so you're argument about him building tank and being a "tank shredder" is already invalid.
darkdill3 votesOkay, maybe "tank shredder" is invalid, but it's still good damage that doesn't require Lee to build any damage. In any case, lots of Lee players still build Last Whisper even if they build tanky, so it'll bypass most of that armor.
Phife2 votesThen why is damage items such as tiamat and LW so core to lee sin?
Ive never seen a lee sin go fuil tank and actually do alot of damage because once you land ur Q you've got to use it again to fly to the target and then use E...
Assuming your first Q was at 100% hp your second cast of Q wont deal extra damage, and your E will deal a maximum of 200 damage.
TheKingDodo2 votesPosting in a pointless thread. because rito will never touch their baby lee and yes I agree his Q execution is ridiculous.
Kuroi865 votesYour champ needs to lose 800 health for his missing health on his second Q to deal even 100 damage, this is before calculating armor.
JustMyBassCannon3 votesActually, 1250 health. 8% of 800 is 64.
Kuroi861 votesOh FFS I can't believe I made that obvious a mistake. I see 8, I think 10 obviously -_-
Kingsgrave1 votesEspecially since the combined damage is over 300 at rank 5. So at full health they still take like 300 damage. Thats ridiculous.
Phife1 votesuse ur brain to do math. most tanks have 70% mitigation against AD reduce that number by 70%. what do u get?