Kalista isn't paying for her mobility in any way,shape, or form.

InSingedWeTrust·Feb 23, 2015·93 votes·5,073 views

Fix it.

68 Comments

GloriousKaiserFeb 23, 201521 votes

It's not about paying for mobility.

It's the mobility itself. Isn't having multiple jumps a tad overloaded no matter what situation? That ability to instantly reposition one's self in an instant is too strong. Especially for LoL.

CertainlyT would make very balanced DoTA heroes.

JunkοFeb 23, 20152 votes

Vayne Kassadin Nidalee

AntodaraFeb 23, 20155 votes

The problem here is they have cooldowns. Kassadin hasn't got a real cooldown, but the mana cost increases exponentially each time he uses it. Vayne i haven't played very much. Nidalee's pounce is on a ~6sec cooldown AND requires you to shift to cougar form first, and it actually goes a shorter distance than Kalista's hop.

Kallista just has insane amounts of dashes with her hops, and there's no way to shut her down short of actually stunning her, and good luck hitting that stun when she hops out of your q/w/e range :/

I think she could get it, but maybe as an ability she has to hit. Replace something else and make her passive decent to make up for it.

JunkοFeb 23, 20152 votes

Kassadin R is 7 sec cd at rank 1, 5 at rank 2, 3 at rank 3. Nidalee pounce is 5 sec cd all ranks with a possible reduction by 1.5s, it's range is also higher than Kassadin R if used on somebody hunted(750 range) and Nidalee also buys CDR. And it has no mana cost. Also shift to Cougar is instant

AntodaraFeb 23, 20157 votes

All of those have costs, cooldowns and limitations. Outside of requiring her to auto attack, what's the limitation or cost for Kallista?

JunkοFeb 23, 20151 votes

She needs to attack a target, so her passive is entirely reliant on AS. Buy Frozen Heart or Randuins (or both!) or play Nasus and W her, and watch as her passive becomes nonexistant.

ABlueQuakerFeb 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

All of those have costs, cooldowns and limitations. Outside of requiring her to auto attack, what's the limitation or cost for Kallista?

She has no sustained damage steroid. She's all kite and no bite.

AuryielFeb 23, 201510 votes

Kalista's auto attacks deal a bonus 32 + 30% AD that can't crit Just because it's delayed doesn't mean it's not there The fact that it's bursty is an advantage in several situations

SmokingPuffinFeb 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

All of those have costs, cooldowns and limitations. Outside of requiring her to auto attack, what's the limitation or cost for Kallista?

That is precisely the limitation. Kalista only gets to hop if she's in auto range. This makes her weak against long ranged opponents and only mobile within fights.

If you compare her to Nidalee or LeBlanc, their mobility isn't so contextual, so it's more accessible more of the time.

I suspect that, when Kalista nerfs do eventually come, it will be a nerf to rend stacks. Her ability to outsmite junglers is seriously warping. I don't think her passive is going anywhere, any more than I see Yasuo E going anywhere.

Father CthulhuFeb 23, 20154 votes

{quoted}

That is precisely the limitation. Kalista only gets to hop if she's in auto range. This makes her weak against long ranged opponents and only mobile within fights.

If you compare her to Nidalee or LeBlanc, their mobility isn't so contextual, so it's more accessible more of the time.

I suspect that, when Kalista nerfs do eventually come, it will be a nerf to rend stacks. Her ability to outsmite junglers is seriously warping. I don't think her passive is going anywhere, any more than I see Yasuo E going anywhere.

They need to nerf her SOMEWHERE in the kit. Her damage is too high for the mobility she has. Her and her support can smack same person and wam, instant 20% hp gone. Meanwhile she's stacking infinite E's on them and spamming her 100% scaling poke.

SmokingPuffinFeb 23, 20151 votes

I don't really have enough data to make this claim yet. Solo queue win rates are saying she's solid but not overwhelming. In particular, she's right at 50% win rate in diamond and has been for a month; very few champs have that sort of stability in win rate.

In NA LCS, she's 5-3 in NA with 18 bans -- that's an alarming ban rate, says to investigate further, but the record is too short to draw conclusions yet.

I do expect that eventually we will have the data necessary to support nerfing her. I doubt that it will be her passive that gets nerfed.

Father CthulhuFeb 23, 20152 votes

Yeah, her passive isn't getting touched. But at least make her easier to lane against, or fix her objective control. Vayne had the same issues for a while, so much damage with a passive ms and q for even more mobility. So they made her lane crap and justified her kit by making her a late game oriented hyper carry.

SmokingPuffinFeb 23, 20151 votes

Objective control is a likely place to hit Kalista.

Release Vayne is a good comparison point.

Fed by Snu SnuFeb 23, 201514 votes

Dota's heroes have to be strong in one department and have weaknesses in at least 2-3 others.

So not really, he wouldn't.

lojicianFeb 23, 201518 votes

There was a recent korean pro 1v1 tournament where kalista was one of the most common picks.

Think about that. While playing almost solely against other adcs and ranged mages the lategame hyper scaling teamfight kiter with an ult that is useless without another champion, a passive damage proc that requires another champion, and a utility skill that is completely useless in a 1v1 was still one of the best picks.

NarasimhaFeb 23, 20151 votes

Do you mind showing me where it is? Because I'm not seeing her at ALL in the one I'm looking at

http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/The_Solo_King_Korean_1v1_Tournament

Edit: Jk, there are multiple groups, didn't flip through them. Also, she was picked 6 times. Thats not even close to common here. Cait seems to be the big choice, followed by Cass, Blitz, and Lee.

lojicianFeb 23, 201513 votes

I assume you're just looking at group A. Click on group B and C.

She wasn't picked as much as lucian or azir but she was still picked 6 times in a 1v1 tournament as an allegedly team dependent character who couldn't even use her ult. It's like some kind of joke.

(Btw you mention blitz and lee in your edit and I wanted to tell you people occasionally agreed ahead of time to have lee sin duels or support duels. They didn't actually think they could beat kalista and other adcs with a taric.)

WheatloafFeb 23, 20153 votes

With the type of mobility she has, someone confident in their skills with her can use her as a pocket pick against champions like Azir and Pantheon, who have zones of damage she can move around. Doesn't matter how low your damage output is if you aren't taking any.

RaptameiFeb 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I assume you're just looking at group A. Click on group B and C.

She wasn't picked as much as lucian or azir but she was still picked 6 times in a 1v1 tournament as an allegedly team dependent character who couldn't even use her ult. It's like some kind of joke.

(Btw you mention blitz and lee in your edit and I wanted to tell you people occasionally agreed ahead of time to have lee sin duels or support duels. They didn't actually think they could beat kalista and other adcs with a taric.)

So she's balanced without her ult and proc. Why don't we remove her ult and make her passive her ult for 10 seconds or so?

Edge of DaybreakFeb 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There was a recent korean pro 1v1 tournament where kalista was one of the most common picks.

League isnt balanced around 1v1's. Did kalista win the tournament or was she just picked a lot?

lojicianFeb 23, 20154 votes

Yeah I guess her 1v1 ability is paid for by her limited utility, cc, mobility, vulnerability to divers, and teamfighting. Oh wait.

The tournament is not between champions, it's between players. So I don't understand what your question is intended to mean. And the final round hasn't started yet. But she did beat champions like azir and pantheon in her matchups if that's what you want to know.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I guess her 1v1 ability is paid for by her limited utility, cc, mobility, vulnerability to divers, and teamfighting. Oh wait.

The tournament is not between champions, it's between players. So I don't understand what your question is supposed to mean. And the final round hasn't started yet. But she did beat champions like azir and pantheon in her matchups if that's what you want to know.

If you are gonna bring up player skill then why the hell does it matter who they picked? Just because she is picked a lot doesnt mean she wins a lot. I also forgot to mention her lack of an attack speed steroid and that her dash is tied to her attacking and not just freely pressing a button. Anyway I'm just gonna cut out the bs cause I have stuff to do. You are aware that she does have tradeoffs right? it doesnt matter if you dont feel they are enough the only thing I am asking is are you aware they are there?

KeevalroyFeb 23, 201513 votes

Replace that obnoxious hop with the scaling % damage on her W, take away the infinite stacking mechanic on her E and set the cap to a number between 6 and 12, then add extra damage to her Q to compensate for the loss of her Rend burst.

Done.

AwoofFeb 23, 20155 votes

Can we remove Rend and put her hopping in it's place to be activated for a short time like Tristana's Q? Twitch I'm still salty.

KeevalroyFeb 23, 20151 votes

As long as the hop range is reduced with a 20s (or something like that) CD that lasts for a very short time, maybe She's a ghost, so personally, I don't think she should hop* at all*.

Edit: Oh, I'm too think to tired and can't math. I didn't see the first part of that - changed my post around so it makes more sense.

HawkefireFeb 23, 20151 votes

I am fine with the infinite stacking mechanic on her E, I just don't like that it works on monsters that way. Simply adding a cap against monsters would be enough.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 23, 20158 votes

She can't cancel her autos and she is reliant on a partner for 2 skills. Kalista may be busted as hell but let's not just lie and call it a day that won't get us anywhere.

InSingedWeTrustFeb 23, 201526 votes

{quoted}

She can't cancel her autos and she is reliant on a partner for 2 skills. Kalista may be busted as hell but let's not just lie and call it a day that won't get us anywhere.

Not being able to cancel auto attacks when you have 2.0+ atk speed in your core items is paying for mobility? Relying on your laning partner (early game) a LITTLE bit more is paying for mobility?

No.

WheatloafFeb 23, 20151 votes

There was talk about slowing down her attack animation at higher attack speeds in the near future. There is hope.

KeevalroyFeb 23, 201510 votes

That will provide the same effect that the AS nerf to Zed did...literally nothing.

MatthevvFeb 23, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Just In Heim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A4EKLkr1,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-02-23T02:49:53.565+0000)

Not being able to cancel auto attacks when you have 2.0+ atk speed in your core items is paying for mobility? Relying on your laning partner (early game) a LITTLE bit more is paying for mobility?

No.

Not only that but the whole point of cancelling autos is because you either messed up your positioning or your cs. The positioning is not a problem since you get to reposition yourself with every auto. The cs issue is nonexistant as well because even if you mess up a quick e solves the problem.

Sinister AnubisFeb 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Just In Heim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A4EKLkr1,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-02-23T02:49:53.565+0000)

Not being able to cancel auto attacks when you have 2.0+ atk speed in your core items is paying for mobility? Relying on your laning partner (early game) a LITTLE bit more is paying for mobility?

No.

you act as if when the game starts she has that amount of attack speed.

OnegarionFeb 23, 20155 votes

Thats not really paying for anything. Her biggest selling points are her High mobility and high damage through her Rend (E). She doesn't need an ally to utilize any of those. Her W damage is nice, but she doesn't need it to dominate and her ult is more of a counter engage in most cases.

After early game when she has AS and can simply kite most of the champions she doesn't even need those other portions of her kit. This isn't even late game we are talking about, but 2-3 items and she spikes and doesn't stop. Its far from a tax or paying for her advantages.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Thats not really paying for anything. Her biggest selling points are her High mobility and high damage through her Rend (E). She doesn't need an ally to utilize any of those.

Yes she is strong but being strong doesnt mean she isnt paying for it in some way. We cant just ignore these things because she is strong. If her numbers were ass I bet people would complain that she is paying too much for mobility.

OP is saying she doesnt pay for it in any way at all. That's just not something I can agree with when she has a clear payment for it.

OnegarionFeb 23, 20153 votes

Well I"m not the OP. I'm saying she doesn't pay nearly enough for her mobility and the kit that she has. Her not being able to cancel an AA is no big deal. Its actually not hard to get use to at all. I really don't consider this a cost at all especially when most builds eliminate this weakness with high AS and her other weakness is null after 2 items.

MadraFeb 23, 20156 votes

Yasuo and Riven don't really pay for their mobility either. I get a damage shield by spamming my 0 resource cost attack on minions? I get the only shield in the game that scales with AD? Sign me up for either of those.

The SoulforgedFeb 24, 20153 votes

Trust me in that if Riven had no mobility, she would suck.

Lean into itFeb 23, 20152 votes

its a good thing they removed the onhit slow that randuins used to give :^)

JunkοFeb 23, 20155 votes

Slows don't affect her passive? The AS slow is still there to fuck her passive up though

JunkοFeb 23, 20151 votes

Her AAs miss if she loses vision. Doesn't seem like much, until you have 1 health, see that last Kalista AA flying towards you, you get into brush and survive.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 23, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A4EKLkr1,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-02-23T08:51:28.789+0000)

Her AAs miss if she loses vision. Doesn't seem like much, until you have 1 health, see that last Kalista AA flying towards you, you get into brush and survive long enough for her to use her trinket ward and finish you off

Fixed that for ya.

JunkοFeb 23, 20151 votes

My support and jungler killed her, so not really

Also isn't that what every single ADC can do? Put a ward and deliver the last AA?

DryditchFeb 23, 20153 votes

So then why are you talking about this like it's a big thing?

Every ADC's autos miss when you go into brush.

JunkοFeb 23, 20151 votes

Every ADC's autos miss when you go into brush.

Except they don't. This only happens with Kalista and is a part of her passive

DJ Hatsune MikuFeb 23, 20151 votes

She has no steroid, her solo damage takes awhile to ramp, she lacks burst, she's squishy as hell. People act like getting 30 spears in someone happens every fight, it doesn't. With a few items even no steroid/burst adcs can kill in a few seconds because of crit. She pays for her mobility, the mobility and objective control just make her weaknesses negligible. Making those worse while keeping her strengths won't do anything. Even if they nerf her w ddamage, ult, or spear scaling it wont matter if she keeps her safety and her like 3k rends on baron.

Problem is that's the main reason she's viable and nerfing those puts her back on release status which was basically everyone saying she's trash.

Sneak DogFeb 24, 20152 votes

Rend adds 10~32+(20%~30% ad) damage to every autoattack, this is a small steroid for an adc, but a steroid nevertheless. W deals 12%~~20% max health damage, which is huge. Kalista is practically immune to slows in combat. Kalista has a 1.5s~~2s knockup on her ultimate.

Adcs inherently lack burst. Adcs inherently are squishy.

What is Kalistas downside for these strengths? What is her counterplay? You can't just tell me to go zone her out of a fight, because she is an adc and therefore a primary target.

Chromatic EagleFeb 23, 20151 votes

According to Riot, or a person who works there at least,

Just wanted to touch on one point here: while they are 'free' in the sense that they don't cost a resource most of the time, they are much more conditional than Kassadin. He has freedom to move any direction he wants. Yasuo can only dash into enemy targets, Kalista needs something to hit to access most of her extra mobility. To that end, they're probably more healthy.

Cosmic WarperFeb 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A4EKLkr1,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2015-02-23T19:39:38.640+0000)

According to Riot, or a person who works there at least,

I find that hilarious since 95% of the time you have something to hit for your mobility. Kassadin can't keep blinking around after Riftwalk stacks up to too much mana, and therefore gates him. Along with that he's immobile pre-6, giving him another weakness. I don't understand how that is less healthy than a kalista jumping around for 95% of the game since there is almost always something to hit, and even if not she has her Q for free mobility.....

KaisadiIIaFeb 23, 20152 votes

Just wanted to touch on one point here: while they are 'free' in the sense that they don't cost a resource most of the time, they are much more conditional than Kassadin. He has freedom to move any direction he wants. Yasuo can only dash into enemy targets, Kalista needs something to hit to access most of her extra mobility. To that end, they're probably more healthy.

nope. Mobility is a problem when you are fighting, and, as long as you are fighting, you will always have a target.