Riot admits Assassins are a problem.

Chromatic Eagle·Jan 7, 2015·8 votes·4,349 views

Now let's talk about a few of the other issues you mentioned.

Jungle diversity is an issue we agree we can help improve. Next patch you'll see some movement towards what you're talking about (for instance, Hecarim and Skarner are getting a little love).

**There are some counterplay issues with a few assassins in our game. These problems are pretty complex ones to solve, and some of the champions you mention definitely need some changes to stay healthy (I think Zed is probably at the top of that list right now). **>

Top lane is a much bigger issue. There are so many factors involved here (power of Teleport, relevance of Dragon, power of Marksmen vs Fighters, etc.) that this is a larger scope problem that would take multiple patches to work on. But you definitely make a great point, there are some issues in champion diversity top lane and we need to do some work on that.

So what exactly are the issues regarding counterplay here? Just so we're all on the same page here. Is there something wrong with the assassin design in the new meta? Is it the items made to burst? Why would Zed be at the top of the list? I know people complain about his lack of counterplay, but at least his is notably his shadow usage and how his ult can be countered by items and a summoner spell (I think).

66 Comments

LuckyRedenJan 7, 201514 votes

Here is the main problems most people notice:

The relative safety of many assassins. For example, Fizz has invulnerability, Zed has two shadows, Leblanc has essentially 2 escapes as well as a passive for confusion, Akali has high range, sustain, and her shroud, Lee Sin has shield and mobility (I know hes not a particular assassin but he falls under this part of the problem), Kha'zix has reseting jumps, and a movement speed steroid, Yasuo has a shield and high cc.
Many assassins have low skill caps. For example, Zed and Akali are both point and click champions that require very little skill. (In my opinion, Riot made Diana as a clone to Akali that had more skill required and counterplay, think about it) Zed simply points a champ, ignites, and facerolls. Akali just ults and facerolls everything and gets kills with ease. This is where mage assassins like Veigar and Annie come into the conversation because they simply rely on hitting a stun and then unloading everything with no counterplay. In Annie's case the only way to avoid the stun is to simply avoid annie, unless she has flash then theres no way. Syndra falls to this a little bit, but she has a somewhat higher skill cap. Ahri is also somewhat problematic in this case, since she is an assassin with a pretty safe laning phase and scales well.
Many Assassins have next to no counterplay. (This has to do with relative safety) For example, Leblanc can use her abilities from range than W in for kill very very quickly. Her W is so fast that it is very hard to counter play it. Zed has his shadow to simply escape after unloading his damage, Akali is such high burst ADC's cannot survive without a support, even with a support a fed Akali will simply kill both.

So this begs the question, how do you fix assassins without completely destroying the class? Its a delicate issue.

coppinslingerJan 7, 20157 votes

Yup, the main problem with Assassins is that they are designed to kill you fast with no real counter-play and from relative safety. If you spread their damage over-time, they lose a lot of their power in skirmishes (because it will be waaaaay more unsafe to sit around in the fight for so long) and they become more of duelists instead.

I think the real problem isn't that they could necessarily pick off targets in teamfights (or especially isolated targets, this is something you SHOULD be wary of when playing against an assassin) but rather that some assassins have ridiculous range/low CDs that mean they can instagib you as soon as you see them.

Rengar Akali Katarina Leblanc

When I play against an assassin I want these things:

I want to be able to see the threat before it kills me in .5 seconds so I can respond or at least feel like I had a chance to.
If I die, I don't want the assassin to turn around and kill the rest of my team 3 seconds later when their cooldowns come back up. That's not an assassin (kill one target a get out) that's a fcking serial-killer (kill the whole god-damn team?)
Assassin's power should be heavily tied to long CD's and/or item actives. Effectively making them a single-target killing machine with tangible times of vulnerability. Not oops, I failed my combo, time to run-away, wait 10 seconds, then try-again.

JunkοJan 7, 201510 votes

low skill caps Zed

No Zed has a HUGE skill cap. What you meant was that they have low skill floor. It isn't hard to RWEQ as Zed. It is hard to do outplays like Faker though

Leti the YetiJan 8, 20151 votes

well theres a solution to assassins! heeeey maybe if they didnt have such low skill floors, we wouldnt be bitching bout it as much and yeah, faker shit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8vGaC4OZIs

LuckyRedenJan 8, 20151 votes

Yes sorry, I did mean low skill floor, thanks for correcting me :)

Kuroi86Jan 7, 20153 votes

o.0 Zed' only targeted ability is his ult, his shadow and his Q are both skill shots. And if you faceroll as Zed, you're going to miss everything from jumping around shadows.

The problem with Assassins is that they are defined by what makes them too safe, high mobility and high burst. How can you change that without gutting the entire class and destroying it entirely. =/

Seraph1690Jan 7, 20154 votes

That is the problem with zed...when you faceroll as zed, you still kill... just try it... no skill involved...ult them, and faceroll no matter if you hit both of your Q or your E, still get the kill.

Assassins are supposed to be cleaners... maybe reducing their burst.... that is the problem, their burst, how do you counterplay a 1 hit KO, mages are the ones doing the majority of the damage, while assassins (in an rpg enviorement) are squishy, but agile, they strike pretty fast, relying on critics more than str.... hmmm I dont know how to make assassins balanced

Kuroi86Jan 8, 20152 votes

Actually no, you won't get the kill, unless they have like 5% health. Without hitting your opponent, Zed' ult deals barely more than a basic auto attack. I picked up Zed just last week, the idea that he facerolls is ridiculous after playing even a single game. Go ahead, pick him up, I DARE you, see how faceroll he is. See how teamfight dominant he is. See how easily he can 100-0 someone at lvl 6. I friggen DARE YOU!

The moment Zed hits six, you can predict what he will do based on how low you are. Are you above 35% health? He's going to continue to try and trade with you until you are low.

Are you below 35% health? Get ready because he's going to ult you.

If an assassin can 1 hit KO you, it's because they are fed and you are not.
Anyone that wants to claim differently is welcome to post proof, I keep asking but no one wants to actually follow up on these claims.

Mages and Assassins both deal burst damage in LoL, the difference is that Assassins deal primarily single target damage while Mages have much more AoE. Causing them to excel in different aspects, Assassins in 1v1 fights, mages in team fights.

SeargentAnusJan 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Here is the main problems most people notice:

The relative safety of many assassins. For example, Fizz has invulnerability, Zed has two shadows, Leblanc has essentially 2 escapes as well as a passive for confusion, Akali has high range, sustain, and her shroud, Lee Sin has shield and mobility (I know hes not a particular assassin but he falls under this part of the problem), Kha'zix has reseting jumps, and a movement speed steroid, Yasuo has a shield and high cc.

Many assassins have low skill caps. For example, Zed and Akali are both point and click champions that require very little skill. (In my opinion, Riot made Diana as a clone to Akali that had more skill required and counterplay, think about it) Zed simply points a champ, ignites, and facerolls. Akali just ults and facerolls everything and gets kills with ease. This is where mage assassins like Veigar and Annie come into the conversation because they simply rely on hitting a stun and then unloading everything with no counterplay. In Annie's case the only way to avoid the stun is to simply avoid annie, unless she has flash then theres no way. Syndra falls to this a little bit, but she has a somewhat higher skill cap. Ahri is also somewhat problematic in this case, since she is an assassin with a pretty safe laning phase and scales well.

Many Assassins have next to no counterplay. (This has to do with relative safety) For example, Leblanc can use her abilities from range than W in for kill very very quickly. Her W is so fast that it is very hard to counter play it. Zed has his shadow to simply escape after unloading his damage, Akali is such high burst ADC's cannot survive without a support, even with a support a fed Akali will simply kill both.

So this begs the question, how do you fix assassins without completely destroying the class? Its a delicate issue.

Reworks, sadly assassins need high skillcaps to be fair.

Drunk RummateJan 7, 201513 votes

I believe what they mean is that it's very difficult to return damage on an assassin currently.

Example: Zed

Zed ults you, what do you do? Well you have to dodge all of his skills and/or run away. Unless you are capable of surviving 150% of Zed's damage, usually the latter. So while you're running away you put more distance between yourself and his ultimate shadow. Ultimate ends, Zed swaps back. No return damage on Zed for his "all in." That's a lack of counterplay.

SmokinSickStyleJan 7, 20152 votes

That's a lack of counterplay

That's like that with EVERY assassin.

And besides he's the one that has more counterplay than the others, also having counteritemization.

You people are expecting to live against assassins when playing ADC and Squishy mages, there's your problem.

Talon\Katarina\FIZZ\Kha6\Rengar sure leave you plenty of counterplay if you are a poor thing that needs to be protected right?

That's the rule, Assassins are good in duels and against squishies.

Mages are weak against them due to squishiness, but they are stronger in teamfights against almost everything.

ADC are weak against them for the same reason they are strong against most bruisers because of range.

Bruisers are resistant against most assassins and strong in duels, but weak against some mages and ADC due to their superior range.

Try to pick a bruiser mid against Zed and see who's gonna run instead of expecting to facetank all his damage.

AmazingGoatJan 7, 20155 votes

{quoted}

That's a lack of counterplay

That's like that with EVERY assassin.

And besides he's the one that has more counterplay than the others, also having counteritemization.

You people are expecting to live against assassins when playing ADC and Squishy mages, there's your problem.

Talon\Katarina\FIZZ\Kha6\Rengar sure leave you plenty of counterplay if you are a poor thing that needs to be protected right?

That's the rule, Assassins are good in duels and against squishies.

Mages are weak against them due to squishiness, but they are stronger in teamfights against almost everything.

ADC are weak against them for the same reason they are strong against most bruisers because of range.

Bruisers are resistant against most assassins and strong in duels, but weak against some mages and ADC due to their superior range.

Try to pick a bruiser mid against Zed and see who's gonna run instead of expecting to facetank all his damage.

Why does it make sense that the class that is built to assassinate vulnerable targets is good in duels against healthy targets? Why do many bruisers have to run from an assassin? How does that make any sense? Why do you list weaknesses for every other archetype but only list strengths for assassins. What is their weakness? What is their counter? Right now, the counter to burst assassins is "other champions with burst". That is kind of silly.

Kuroi86Jan 7, 20153 votes

Actually, that's not so much a lack of counterplay as you think. You can return damage to Zed while avoiding his ult shadow and his shadow dash. Not to mention, each missed kill is a big blow to him. An assassin that doesn't get fed is an assassin that will struggle through the mid and late game. Assassins are by design supposed to snowball or fall off in effectiveness. That really makes me think, why isn't there more of a focus on champs that can survive the all in of assassins in lane? I need to look into this.

Drunk RummateJan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually, that's not so much a lack of counterplay as you think. You can return damage to Zed while avoiding his ult shadow and his shadow dash. Not to mention, each missed kill is a big blow to him. An assassin that doesn't get fed is an assassin that will struggle through the mid and late game. Assassins are by design supposed to snowball or fall off in effectiveness. That really makes me think, why isn't there more of a focus on champs that can survive the all in of assassins in lane? I need to look into this.

Take note of the extreme popularity of Janna as a support right now. She has one of the highest winrates in the game because of her ability to peel assassins (amongst other things).

Mids can't always be specifically picked to counter assassins due to the need for waveclear or just compositional synergy. If you've got maokai top, leblanc mid, and vayne ADC then you're going to lose against the sivir who just pushes your turret in nonstop with her W because you have no way to counter her waveclear and if you hard engage she will ult and her team will peel back.

Kuroi86Jan 7, 20153 votes

Janna is a natural counter for assassins. So the question is, who else is a natural counter? Assassins fall in with dive comps.

So I need to look into what comp is naturally strong against that and how to avoid it's weaknesses.

Drunk RummateJan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Janna is a natural counter for assassins. So the question is, who else is a natural counter? Assassins fall in with dive comps.

So I need to look into what comp is naturally strong against that and how to avoid it's weaknesses.

Counterengage?

Sivir is really good for that, especially since she can spellshield the assassin that's chasing her down. She also has a really high winrate right now. A big part of that is that she has great waveclear as well and assassins are generally lacking in that category, so she fills a niche in compositions that others are missing.

Some assassins are impossible to peel due to zhonyas and/or invincibility frames. Safest bet is just a lot of movement speed to escape (like sivir ult or karma mantra E) or a big disengage CC like Nami's or Zyra's ultimate.

Niche situations you can rely on hard CC to peel like a syndra stun or something, but those can be dodged.

You could always just pick carries that are impossible to assassinate. Tristana, corki, ahri, etc.

Mecha MaIphiteJan 7, 20151 votes

In terms of 1v1s, bruisers are a great counter. They're tanky enough to survive one or two full rotations while dealing tons of damage, enough to get the assassin to think twice about going in a third time. Also, top-tier bruisers like Jax can out-burst assassins while still having enough mobility to stick on to very slippery assassins and kill them.

This really applies just to assassins who are good at splitpushing, because assassins aren't going to fight you in a teamfight.

Seraph1690Jan 7, 20151 votes

Gragas XD

boss10000Jan 7, 20159 votes

At the current rate all class are a problem.

Fighters are a problem Assassins are a problem ADC's are a problem Mage's are a problem

At one point or enough they have all been acknowledge as being a "problem" maybe we should just start from scratch with League Of Legends 2

Der LindwurmJan 7, 20155 votes

{quoted} Fighters are a problem Assassins are a problem ADC's are a problem Mage's are a problem

You don't even want to get anyone started on tanks? :p

LuckyRedenJan 7, 20152 votes

Every problem you reference is a specific champion rather than a class, or in some cases its items. Fighters are definitely not a problem right now, I would say the only fighters that are even noticeable are Irelia and maybe Vi. I don't count Gnar or Nidalee as true fighters, but they are def probs. And either way those people don't make the class as a whole aproblem.

Tristana and Lucian were very strong for a period of time, does that mean ADC's are a problem? No. It means Trist and Lucian are a problem.

Most mages are not problems any more due to the changes to mana. Nerfs to Athenes and other items have pretty much destroyed Mages. Chalice is basically useless now. Syndra's stats didn't change at all between season 4 and preseason but she is not as strong due to mana changes.

I think you mean, "At one point or another" btw.

SmokingPuffinJan 7, 20154 votes

Fighters are definitely not a problem right now, I would say the only fighters that are even noticeable are Irelia and maybe Vi.

Apparently LeeSin used quiet steps to evade your notice. Been a problem for years now.

SweetMasterAceJan 8, 20151 votes

Lee Sin isn't a problem because he's a fighter. Lee Sin is a problem because he's a high mobility high CC high utility tanky bruiser fighter assassin.

Seriously, have you seen this guy's kit? He has the burst and mobility to be a pure assassin (we've all seen it done) but does just as well being whatever the hell he wants to be.

NarasimhaJan 7, 20156 votes

Assassins are a problem because 90% of what they do is very binary. Either they burst you and you die, or you don't. And most assassins don't have the power to stick around for a duel.

SmokingPuffinJan 7, 20154 votes

So what exactly are the issues regarding counterplay here?

I believe the main problem with Zed is that his ult is just ridiculously safe. The worst case scenario for Zed is that he ults someone who's baiting him into their entire team. If that happens, most champions die, but Zed just presses R and trollfaces his way back to safety.

Is there something wrong with the assassin design in the new meta?

I don't think assassin design is the problem, really. There's a reason why the quote says "a few assassins". As a class, assassins are generally doing what they're supposed to do, which is make it really hard to keep your carry alive.

I think fighter design is the problem. Fighters are the natural counter to assassins, with the durability to not fear their attacks and the damage to squish them. The problem is that very few fighters have any real chance to block Zed from killing their carry. It's not like Zed minds when you press your targeted gap closer; he just jukes with W, slows with E, and you're not getting back into melee range anytime soon.

We need fighter kits that are good for something other than jumping on a target and wailing away. That kit stopped working in teamfights a long time ago, and these days it's not even good for the lonely top lane splitpush in many situations. We need fighter designs with outplay potential and real ability to make Zed fear them.

Why would Zed be at the top of the list?

Generally, champion health problems are prioritized when that particular champion is strong. There are many assassins with less healthy gameplay patterns than Zed, but he's overtuned. The result is that the game health problems Zed creates are currently affecting many more players than the ones that say Talon creates.

NarasimhaJan 7, 20151 votes

I believe the main problem with Zed is that his ult is just ridiculously safe

Just to jump in, the issue then becomes "Where do we put the shadow?" I mean, the extra shadow is an intrinsic part of the ult, you can't just take that away. And before, it actually used to spawn the shadow behind the target, decreasing his escape options but increasing his damage greatly. Theres no real winning scenario here.

SmokingPuffinJan 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Just to jump in, the issue then becomes "Where do we put the shadow?" I mean, the extra shadow is an intrinsic part of the ult, you can't just take that away. And before, it actually used to spawn the shadow behind the target, decreasing his escape options but increasing his damage greatly. Theres no real winning scenario here.

The shadow appearing next to the target created its own set of problems. Not really better or worse from a design perspective.

I have a different proposal. How about we give Zed R a couple seconds cooldown before he can jump out?

NarasimhaJan 7, 20151 votes

That could definitely work. I'd be a bit apprehensive though, that sounds like that kind of thing that might cause him to receive compensation buffs. I mean, thats a pretty huge playstyle nerf.

DaishøJan 8, 20151 votes

if they gave zed a cooldown of about 4 seconds on jumping back to his ult shadow, he would never be played again. its a s simple as that. and also, if you bait a zed into using his ult into 2 more people, just make one of your team mates cover his ult shadow an also, just cc him. I mean, zed being about to jump to 2 shadows instantly is basicallly his entire kit. if you made a zed have to wait to go back to his ult shadow, his outplay goes from amzing, to trash. Many zed who have played enough him usually do the same thing to get out of baits. lets say i ult my enemy and then top and jg are there to gank me . i usually w shadow away from my ult shadow, and keep baiting people away from my ult shadow, then just go back to it. and also, putting his ult jump on a cooldown would also mean that they would have t increase the amount of time zeds ult shadow is up. Right now, his ult shadows stays u for 4 secs and can be swapped with instantly. if youadd a cooldown of 4 secs and dont raise the duration of his shadow, you cant use his ult shadow at all. :/ these are just facts. i play a lot of zed and i do admit he is a little Op right ow, but not nearly as OP as Fizz or katarina, ( who i think should be entirely removed from the game). Thats all i can say. but zeds not really played too much anymore. Mages are coming back, and leblanc especially has become a pain again to see.

Meep ManJan 7, 20154 votes

So this begs the question, how do you fix assassins without completely destroying the class? Its a delicate issue.

You make them weak when caught out. Assassin should be a class of perfection. In and out, kill or be killed. No Assassin should have a get out of jail free card without having to waste over half their abilities (escapes).

To fix Zed, they need to revert the shadow change on his ultimate (make it appear next to the marked champion again), but remove/modify the bonus AD passive on his W. This would remove his R escape ability, still allow for ability dodges with R and jukes, and still have him keep the same relative damage.

SmokinSickStyleJan 7, 20152 votes

Where lack of counterplay technically is:

I am an ADC\Mage main and an assassin kills and snowballs off me, not fair i should be able to get strong soon so i can dominate all stages of the game.

It's like picking Darius onto Lissandra top and complaining.

If mid is no more a place for early weak champs, pick them somewhere else.

The meta is an illusion, back then there wasn't an enforcement where bruiser MUST be top, mages MUST be mid.

Chromatic EagleJan 7, 20151 votes

I think Riot designs some champions into specific positions though.

SmokinSickStyleJan 7, 20151 votes

If you are s2.5 onwards generation, yes you are bound to think like this.

In all spotlights Riot still sometimes just describes the role of the champion and then showcases where they think according to the community that champion is best played.

The meta was a thing that community created, Riot just released champions, there was no double bot or mid or top or jungle as we know it to day back in s1-2.

It Hertz When IPJan 7, 20151 votes

Double bot was a thing. It wasn't always Support+ADC, but there were usually two bot.

Now, double top instead of a jungler... that was fun.

SmokinSickStyleJan 7, 20151 votes

I know that, that's why i specified as we know it today

Which translates into double bot being 90% of the time a supportive champion and a ranged attack damage based champion.

SweetMasterAceJan 8, 20151 votes

I would agree except for one important piece of evidence.

Riot DOES support and encourage the current meta as hard as it fking can.

The piece of evidence is the hard nerf to Targon's so that double bruiser bot lanes could no longer exist. For a while, it was refreshing to see something other than ADC + Support bot, but not for Riot. Riot likes its game to be samey like that.

SmokinSickStyleJan 8, 20151 votes

Right now yes, esports weren't as popular as now and didn't have a huge impact as now.

HoverBaconJan 7, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Where lack of counterplay technically is:

I am an ADC\Mage main and an assassin kills and snowballs off me, not fair i should be able to get strong soon so i can dominate all stages of the game.

It's like picking Darius onto Lissandra top and complaining.

If mid is no more a place for early weak champs, pick them somewhere else.

The meta is an illusion, back then there wasn't an enforcement where bruiser MUST be top, mages MUST be mid.

It's more like, "I am an immobile caster designed a few years back. I have no armor at all. I get instagibbed over and over if there is an assassin on the enemy team, so I'm useless all game. There is nothing I can do to prevent this, except to pick a different champion".

SmokinSickStyleJan 7, 20151 votes

Then the problem is mobility creep, not assassins themselves.

It Hertz When IPJan 7, 20153 votes

Except assassins are the worst when it comes to that, bringing the argument right back around.

SmokinSickStyleJan 7, 20152 votes

Where assassins are and will always be mobility+burst as they have always been, if you wanna know the truth, assassins were never as popular as now because of the changes made back in season 3 with penetration formula.

Back then Kha'Zix, Zed, Talon were considered trash tier because of league of warmog\bruisers.

xNitoriJan 9, 20152 votes

Having observed the boards for a few days, the main consensus towards what constitutes "lack of counterplay" would go to assassins that are

a. too safe in lane b. have a reliable escape in the form of unconditional mobility.

The truth is: **There is no such thing as a "no-skill"-assassin. **

All assassins require varying degrees of skill, and not limited to purely mechanical skill. Decision-making, proper flanking and timing are huge parts incorporated in some kits.

Akali *Contrary to popular belief, Akali is an assassin that has to be played to perfection if one is to do well with her. As someone who has over 300 Akali games under her belt, it is not easy to scale well with her in terms of items. *

People underestimate how hard Akali's early game is - the sustain she gets from her spell vamp is really pathetic and minuscule. Experienced players will zone you hard from farm which will make you scale worse than you normally would with her. You can wait off the CD of her Q because of how little damage it does. You are extremely vulnerable to ganks because the shroud speed boost is also as pathetic as the sustain you get from your passive. She (and most assassins) HAS to roam bot-lane in order to get going because most mid-laners (e.g. Annie) have ways of stopping her burst dead in its tracks. In other words: She is outmatched against mages.
She is considerably weak in teamfights. Being a single-target assassin, she has to go in at exactly the right moment, find the right target (usually the ADC, APC, support or anyone who's low on health) and burst them down. If she fails to kill, she will get focused instead. Akali's passive will not save her from 3 people sitting in her shroud, unlike what some people believe.
She has to fully commit to a kill - she has no "get-out-of-jail-free-"-card. Once in, she cannot escape reliably unlike some other assassins (Zed and Fizz are the worst offenders in this category). Once she has used up all her three dashes, good luck on getting any kill or even getting close to the enemy, because the damage her abilities do (compared to instagib-assassins) is pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.
Late-game, carries obliterate her. Makes sense, because carries are supposed to be strong late-game. Unlike Fizz, Zed, LeBlanc and any other assassin with an escape, Akali can be kited - and the average ADC late-game crits for 1000 damage - or outplayed (looking at you, Vayne). Drop a pink inside her shroud and she can be targeted.
It takes 12 full seconds to assassinate a target. 12 seconds. Let that sink in. Most assassins are insta-gibbers (LeBlanc, Katarina, Fizz..), and Akali is one of the only assassins who has an elaborate combo to pull off that doesn't insta-gib someone (unless you're extremely squishy).
You won't be stacking lifesteal because your lifesteal scales with AD. Most of your spell-vamp comes from Gunblade, and that's all you're going to get (unless you rush Hexdrinker, which, nobody does).

In conclusion, Akali is not the biggest problem of the assassin class - people dislike that she has 3 dashes that have a longer range than flash - perhaps the solution would be a CC that affects how far you can dash, which would also help curb mobility creep.

Katarina is another one of these supposed "no-skill"-champs, but that is incorrect. Katarina has a VERY risky playstyle, and decision-making plays a very big part in her kit. This is crucial since you cannot reset your ult after one kill since the recent nerfs to it.

She suffers from the same early-game weakness as Akali, but imo Kata is even more gibbed as she doesn't have any innate sustain built into her kit. You cannot misplay at all or else you risk not scaling well mid and late-game. You have to be very precise about when to go in for harass - if you are one nano-second too late, you lose the trade. A lot of times you have to dive which in itself is risky as some champions have.. erm.. outplaying mechanisms (hello Fizz) that can make you mess up pretty badly.
Her ult is vastly overrated. It can be stopped by the slightest breeze, and at that moment, you're usually dead anyway.
In teamfights, you have to go in at the exact nano-second. Any moment later and you're dead. No misplaying allowed.
Even more so than Akali, Kata is truly feast-or-famine. If you don't get the ball rolling, you'll end up being food for the enemy carries.
Late-game, she is only relevant to the enemy carries. Kata cannot do much to tanks because of their 4k health, bruisers will out-damage her and a good fed enemy carry will kill her also.

Having played a lot of Katarina, I found her not to be facerolley at all, unless I was extremely fed (like 20 kills per game). Most of the time, I did somewhat okay in lane, but not enough to shred tanks or bruisers.

The biggest, by far biggest offenders in the no-counterplay department are, imo, Zed and Fizz . I probably won't say what already hasn't been said, so I'll put it blunt and simple:

These two are WAY too safe, you cannot punish them for misplaying because of their kits' natures and the amount of work they have to put in (compared to other assassins) for their kills is low.

Seriously, while I never had problems against Zed and Fizz, these two are so toxic that something needs to be done in order for them to stay healthy.

I laugh at how people thought Zed is the most balanced assassin.

AmazingGoatJan 7, 20151 votes

I have two major problems with assassins as they currently stand:

(1) the only thing they have to fear from levels 6 to 11 is other champions with high burst; and (2) many of them can repeatedly engage with very little downtime.

With respect to (1), there is a template for balancing assassins with high mobility and high damage. Lower their health. Look at what happened to Yasuo when his health was nerfed so that he could get blown up as fast as he blows people up.

The problem with assassins right now is that starting at level six they can kill almost any non-tank champion in a single combo, but no one can kill them in the same amount of time, so a class archetype that is supposed to be a glass cannon essentially is the best duelist.

Right now, assassins in the mid game have to fear only two things: (1) high burst, and (2) chain CC. This is because their mobility allows them to engage on their terms and run away from any sustained DPS if they don't think an engagement is favorable for them. In theory, a bruiser should counter an assassin, but in practice an assassin can usually just avoid the engagement with their superior mobility (and this is before getting ahead - if ahead they can just burst the bruiser).

As a result, an assassin by itself doesn't have to fear anyone 1v1 who doesn't have high burst. Further, they can engage 1v2 against champs without burst if they think they can wipe out the majority of the damage or CC and escape before being killed.

If you take away the mobility from these assassins they aren't going to be able to get to carries to assassinate them, and they might as well be bruisers (e.g. largely useless). But if you lower their HP, you create a champ that more closely approximates the vision of assassins as squishy champions with large single target burst. If an assassin gets the drop on you, the assassin can still burst you down. But lowering assassin HP allows for more counter play, as assassins will actually have to worry about getting killed by champions without extreme burst.

This by itself might solve (2) as well. Additionally or alternatively, you could tweak champion kits to prevent some assassins from being able to ravage entire teams in a small period of time. Right now, you could probably have a silver Katarina player walk into a team fight in a plat+ game where the entire enemy team is low and come out with a triple kill at worst. There is no counter play to a point and click instant blink with a reset. Akali could do something similar, albeit with a point and click dash with SLIGHTLY more counter play.

SweetMasterAceJan 8, 20152 votes

Ehhh I don't think the problem is assassin health. It's their zipzapzoopityzop dashy flashy blinks and safety. Assassins are USUALLY pretty squishy by default anyway. It's their infinite or stupidly uncounterable mobility that makes them problematic (Fizz, Leblanc, Zed etc)

Dingding123Jan 7, 20151 votes

Assassins are a problem because no one wants to get resistances, because no one wants to get health, because health only helps when you are ahead in which case you have more health for having a higher level anyway and you might as well get more damage.

Assassins aren't supposed to be oppressive but they are. Shaco is a really neat champion; it's the current state of the game's fault for making him and his kin how they are.

AccountaBilabudyJan 7, 20151 votes

Most assassins just have too many escapes. Thats the only problem. The damage is fine. It's that a Zed/LeBlanc/Fizz can assassinate an enemy in the middle of their whole team and still escape with the press of a button.

Really it's just those 3 that are a problem. Talon is fine, Rengar is fine, Kha is fine, Ahri is fine. Akali...kind of a weird one. I don't agree that she toxic like LB/Zed/Fizz but she does probably have too much sustain. Just nerf her passive and shes fine.

DaishøJan 8, 20151 votes

but at least with zed, he only has one true escape without his ult, and his w is on a 14 second cooldown, about 3 times ore then lb's w at 3rd rank, and fizz's E grants him being fuckin invincible. I mean, lb's ult is on a 25 second cooldown max rank and fizz doesnt need her ult to kill someone. i have very rarely won a 1v1 as zed without my ult. and also, you have to realize that leaving after assassinating someone WITHIN their team is way, way harder then one button. first of all. if a team is smart, they will cover all of zeds shadows. Fizz has two escapes, one of those being a single target point and click, the other being a small aoe jump. Leblanc can outpay better then the other two when it comes to going in, killing someone, and getting out.

DroogzyJan 8, 20151 votes

A lot of why has already been touched on, but part of the problem I think is such a strict enforcement of the meta, there's literally no room for flexibility because of the meta perception. And if someone does something or if something becomes incredibly effective outside the meta, for whatever reason, Riot will nerf it into the ground. Despite them claiming they do not enforce it.

The idea of the meta is to use an established set up that we know works. But in some cases, it has turned to be detrimental. Perfect example of this is our favorite assassin who is stupidly safe to use for an assassin: Zed.

Run a mage or another assassin, which is what the meta generally expects, against him, he's going to do reasonably well.

Run a bruiser with sustain? OH LORDY DON'T DO IT, IT'S NOT THE META!

Yet if you were to take certain bruisers with built in sustain against him, Hecarim comes to mind, believe it or not he wrecks Zed, he's going to get bullied into tomorrow. It's been done before, with incredibly good success too, first item buy is Ninja Tabi with homeguard, just teleport home after every wave clear, with W from the home base, you can get back before the next wave is approaching, its just too bad no one notices it.

As far as problems with assassins go, the biggest issue is the fact that many of them built armor penetration items, as it gives them both damage and the ability to ignore what small armor an ADC or APC has.

Problem is, tanks and bruisers are also hit hard by this as collateral damage as they rely on armor. If there was a way to fix this, I think assassin would already start to be in a much healthier spot.

{quoted}

UNless your a retard or have never play Zed, dont say he's a point and click champion and requires very little skill... Causes thats EVERY CHAMPION every champion is point and click technically speaking. With zed you

Need to Place your Shadows in the right place accordingly

Know which way to q as your shadow is usually facing a differnt direction then you are unless you place it directly infront in a line.

Need to know how to use your combo effectively i've seen many people play Zed and most of them just spam there abilitys and end up never getting a kill. As you must be very quick land your q and your shadows q it mimicks your direction but it shoots it from a different angle depending on where you put it.

Landing your q's in lane effectively and knowing when to throw it so it doesn't hit minons. And getting the full damage.

I doubt you have every played Zed enough to know how to use him properly. As he's actually considered to be one of the most difficult champions to use in the game. (Besides azir

You, without meaning to, summed up the exact problem with Zed here, particular this part of your statement:

Need to know how to use your combo effectively i've seen many people play Zed and most of them just spam there abilitys and end up never getting a kill. As you must be very quick land your q and your shadows q it mimicks your direction but it shoots it from a different angle depending on where you put it.

If you land your combos effectively, great, you should get the kill and with reasonable expectation, you should be able to get out safely too, I don't think anyone is arguing this.

If you mess up? As an assassin, you should, not only not get the kill, but be good as dead. Except as Zed, if you mess up, you're still able to get out safely 9/10 out of 10, unless you get baited into using it.

Oh I've played Zed several times before, I'm a terrible mid laner and I can do extremely well him, just to show he's not as difficult you think he is. He has an incredibly low skill floor, thanks to his passive, but a somewhat high skill ceiling to utilize extremely well. But you don't even need to come close to hitting that ceiling to be great with him. That high skill ceiling is only necessary on the level of Faker's proficiency. He's not even remotely close to being on the same level of difficulty as Azir.

CoolKnightSTJan 8, 20151 votes

Yeah Riot finds Zed an example of a healthy assassin

http://youtu.be/HJUVcJrYBJI?t=6m26s

NeFlujsRviJan 8, 20151 votes

Rengar HAHA I LOVE THAT YOU HATE ON ALL OF THOSE PUNY ASSASSINS, RANGO MAY NOT HAVE AN ESCAPE BUT THAT IS BECAUSE WHEN HE JUMPS ON YOUR TEAM YOU ARE THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO ESCAPE