Can someone explain this to me

BLIGHTBRINGER··3 votes·1,121 views

Since I might be possibly misunderstanding what each role is suppose to do.

Assassins are meant to kill squishies (obvious).

Tanks are suppose to tank damage and provide distruption.

Fighters are suppose to be damage dealers who are the mid or front line next to tanks.

Supports protect their team mates at the back or front line based on what support was picked.

What is the purpose of Marksmen? Some say that they are suppose to provide consistant DPS, others say that they are suppose to provide utility (Slows, CC, Debuff's of some kind), but not all marksmen are the same and each are placed in a subclass (Artillery, Assassin, Utility).

Yet every marksmen is called overpowered when it doesn't effect all Marksmen being equally as strong (Ashe, Lucian etc..) Everyone complains about everything they do, whether it's that they lifesteal too much, crit too much, attack to fast, kite to well, peel for themselves or other things like that.

Why are they hated for literally anything that they are able to do? Listening to what people say about the role it's like everyone wants them to be able to do completely nothing.

While I get the whole idea and frustration that "Bot lane decides games" it's still something that I been thinking about.


So here's the final question I have for you summoners, in your opinion what do you believe Marksman should be able to do in game?

19 Comments

ChargeItDownMid3 votes

[deleted]

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

Well, here's a reasonable goal I suppose that Riot should work towards. I mean I get why Marksmen or (Tristana, Twitch for example) get hate but why are the rest of them being hated? (Ashe, Sivir, Lucian, Kindred).

LilxPaprika1 votes

truth is they should hate the supports just as much as the ADC. But because the damage and the bragging rights likely comes from the ADC people place the blame on the ADC doesn't matter which.

Chibi Bronzlife1 votes

{quoted}

Ideally, marksmen should be similar to melee adc except marksmen are better for objectives and seiging and worse in team fights. The main reason why marksmen is the only archetype that has been picked on every team for the past 8 seasons is because they end up outclassing melee adc in both teamfights and objective control.

ummm marksmen are supposed to be strong in teamfights, they are supposed to shred the frontline. you know those big beefy enemies that are trying to run through your frontline? That is the marksman's job, so they have to be strong to do that.

LilxPaprika1 votes

there's a difference between Shred and melt. if marksmen wanted to shred frontline (<edit) they would equip the old Blackcleaver. Or you would pick an ADC with shred in their kit. In the past few years just about any ADC can deal with tanks(<edit) .

8.11 should help restore order. I actually think, similar to how AP carries do not necessarily always build item 3089 that non IE builds will actually be viable on some ADCS more than others.

Chibi Bronzlife1 votes

{quoted}

there's a difference between Shred and melt. if marksmen wanted to shred carries they would equip the old Blackcleaver. Or you would pick an ADC with shred in their kit. Now just about any ADC can deal with carries.

8.11 should help restore order

my statement wasn't about carries. my statement was about frontlines. The Bruisers the Tanks and the Juggernauts, all of which are typically hard to kill.

LilxPaprika1 votes

sorry typo i meant to type frontline. went ahead and made the edits

Chibi Bronzlife1 votes

{quoted}

sorry typo i meant to type frontline.

statement still stands. All ADCs should be dealing with frontlines first, just the way they do it changes for each. Vayne Quinn Lucian can outright duel most frontlines and then steamroll. Kog is your mobile artillery fortress. Jhin, Jinx, and Cait are your standard run and gun adcs. Corki, MF, Ez, Varus, (technically Lucian is also one of these) are your casters that need to thread abilities into their auto attacks. Kai'sa is your cleanup crew ADC, dashing in to pick off wounded enemies. Kalista, and Feather Lady (Rakan's wife thing) are your niche adcs since they work better when paired with specific supports, though Kalista can also be a duelist with her mobility. Then you have Ashe and Sivir, your primary utility adcs who actually do a fair amount of damage in the late game due to how their kits work. I've broken down the different ways that ADCs do their shit, ADCs job has ALWAYS been fight from the front to the back.

LilxPaprika1 votes

the aspects/differences within adcs are more nuances and a matter of picks and bans. what to pick into certain matchups. This level to nuance usually does not mean anything outside of competitive and high elo. At the end of the day they are all still ADCs first and foremost. your looking too much into it.

again you're placing too much emphasis on this whole front to back thing. it's a general approach yes but the game does not always play out this way. look at it this way if ADCs were that good at shredding tanks, they would either need drawbacks to keep them balanced. Because no one would want to go tank unless by some miracle the enemy chooses not to even use an ADC. Why can ADCs deal with tanks but melee carries can't? Meanwhile ADCs can still deal with melee carries. that's just unfair. What would be the point in using tanks and trying to utilize all the roles in your team comp. Might as well go melee carry, and that was a trend I think people moved towards, with the exception of some tanks like those who, go figure, also assisted the adc: Shen

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Chibi Bronzlife1 votes

{quoted}

Are you referring to from a thematically standpoint or from a balance standpoint? I understand that from a thematically standpoint, marksmen should be making those large tanks pin-cushions.

However, from a balance standpoint, marksmen already outclass melee adc in objective control and seiging as well as picking off other ranged squishy champions so the tradeoff should be that melee adc are better for taking down tanks in team fights.

no, the melee damage champions should be going onto back lines, Divers and Fighters are designed to deal with adcs and mages. Your Irelias, Yasuos, Fioras, and even Jax. These should be focusing on killing adcs not frontlines. The ADC who should be at max range should deal with the big frontliners.

Redomic2 votes

People just like to complain, ADC's are meant to out damage everyone late game [except Assassins]. People just can't take the fact that their Early-mid game champ gets fucked in late game.

Quiet Dude1 votes

Every team needs a Hawkeye.

LilxPaprika1 votes

someone is butthurt to find that they were benefiting from the meta and now the reality that they are just mediocre is setting in.

ADCs are the exact same thing as melee adcs, only difference is they are ranged heroes. just like in Battlerite, melee and range are on the same playing field. Even healers in battlerite can 1v1 other roles. >>EXCEPT<< Unlike Battlerite, in L.o.L. they also add scaling to their kit because they are playing a little riskier by being squishier. up until 8.11 this scaling was too significant. After all in a 5v5 and the ttk in league is much faster than that of Battlerites, so the squishier you are the more one false move will hurt you. It's a risk you can choose to take if you like to live on the wild side. But it can be worth while especially when you have peel.

The problem here is that this peel that supports gave made the squishiness a non factor. so now by essentially transferring survival resources from the help of allies you create this powerhouse known as the ADC. this is why killing the support can be just as important as killing the ADC in league.

This is why this patch is important. we have to realize that the roles work together.

I actually think comparing all the roles vis-a-vis Battlerite is a great way to explain, because Battlerite is like the definition of a baseline, especially because healers have to deal with a healing cap. in League unlike Battlerite, healers have more utility to setup plays ward and such, and well have a kit that protects the ADC arguably just as important as being the ADC. In fact the game has evolved such that ADCs are quite reliant on their support to help them from getting overly cced by enemy tanks and such.

Meanwhile tanks who were supposed to trade damage for survivability were just getting melted by the ADCs. especially when ADCs have more gold they can spend and because imo the offensive scaling was a little strong than defensive scaling (being able to spend more gold on items will do that too). Carries are more late game oriented. Mission of non carries is to hopefully end before they get there.

Chibi Bronzlife1 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile tanks who were supposed to trade damage for survivability were just getting melted by the ADCs. especially when ADCs have more gold they can spend and because imo the offensive scaling was a little strong than defensive scaling (being able to spend more gold on items will do that too). Carries are more late game oriented. Mission of non carries is to hopefully end before they get there.

^ That is literally the ADC's job like 100%. People are upset because ADCs are doing what they were designed to do, shred frontlines. Hell I don't even play ADC, but I think the arguments here are pretty garbage.

KZ Engel1 votes

marksmen are supposed to be ranged dps and a primary source of structure dmg during sieges

both of which they are. that second part is the main reason why they're so important.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

For my aged opinion; Assassins are there to take out an enemy carry, either mage or marksmen depending who's more valuable to have removed (such as before a fight or a siege), ideally it doesn't even require a kill, enough damage to force the carry to retreat or die should be plenty of purpose for the assassin. Problem is they're often feast or famine in pvp environments, being frustrating to fight or play as because they can snowball either way. High single target damage and extreme mobility are what define them, I'd include divers as pseudo-assassins since they tend to share both playstyle and builds, summed up as hit & run.

Tanks are the brawlers that disrupt the enemy team by force, being durable with plenty of crowd control are what they're known by; they can be supportive to setup allies combos, or steamrollers to kill enemies who ignore them too long. Like divers, juggernauts I'd put in here for the similar immobile playstyle and build, however their difference is they sacrifice crowd control for damage, making them a more immediate threat but less valuable as a front-liner for squishier allies.

Skirmisher is basically the new bruiser, melees who have a good mix of damage and durability, with either some mobility ability or a crowd control; however they're more like tanks than assassins in terms of playstyle, wanting to stay in longer fights to grind down their opponent as opposed to burn everything to nuke them. A few divers I suppose could fit here, and they're the unviable ones because others can do their jobs better; this and fighters are what most melee's fall into because of the massive ranged advantage in the beginning.

Fighters . . . the outdated terminology to blanket label melee champions in the grey area; having a mix of mobility, damage, durability, and crowd control. They're the flexible picks who can fit into a similar role as someone else without entirely committing to it. Way back in the first couple seasons of league, melee's struggled against mages and marksmen alike (mobility wasn't as common and mages were alternate team carries), so riot started making melees with a mix of tools to fight back; most noticeably irelia and xinzhao, and since then it's been the general design for non-ranged champions that aren't designed as another class.

Mages were the magical powerhouses, limited by mana and cooldowns (until the last couple years) but having more variety than the melee champions for being more focused for something; there's artillery , closecombat (aka battlemages), combo-casters, and utility. Mages in general are immobile but ranged, AOE but delayed from cast time, primarily damage with some utility effect for teamfights. The artillery hardly has any ability more effective at close range (or good selfpeel), and as their name sake, has significantly farther reach for damage. Close combat mages have some durability or sustain to compensate for being close to enemies, usually on lower cooldowns or lower mana costs since they rely on spamming; these are the overlap of mages and skirmishers. Combo-casters are often medium ranged and are the kill-pick mages, generally sacrificing aoe for single target damage, throwing several abilities to quickly burst down their target, but too squishy to stay on the frontline and lack the utility to do much else. Utility mages on the other hand have multiple crowd controls or include some buffs/debuffs in their kits besides some damage, these are the ones picked for support but rarely seen on their own because they're more effective with friends. Mages who are mixed don't have a label like fighters, they're just referred to as mages, lol.

Marksmen have always been the objective (towers and epic monsters) taking champions, together with mages were known for being incidental siege champions, having unavoidable ranged damage that didn't have mana costs yet could attack faster, think skirmishers who sacrificed their durability for range. Like mages they have some variety but not nearly as much, and there's plenty of debate how to slice them for subcategories, but for example here's a discussion I've seen on it ( https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/lT3B52ki-in-my-opinion-for-marksmen-to-be-a-healthier-class-riot-should-flesh-out-their-gameplay-niche?comment=0043 ). Anyway back then there was also the dodge mechanic, like critical hits was RNG to occasionally negate an auto-attack, but to get 100% critical hit chance it required building five items; in the class reworks of season six this got changed to only be four items with some being interchangeable, and allowing the extra item slot to be whatever they needed. Critical hits have always been a hot topic because they're self-synergizing damage amplifiers, which at full build have drastically out-scaled mages; and thanks to the extra item they can fit in, can either nuke tanks with last whisper, or sustain through any poke with a bloodthirster. Riot has been trying to subtly (less so in recent years) make marksmen self-sufficient, which is a balancing mistake as long as they're reliant on unavoidable and resourceless damage, that scales higher than anything else without effective countermeasures.

Supports are generally the most diverse, not being a sole class but often the team's punching bag, as they're almost always behind in both gold and levels; however they supply much needed utility about anyone on the team can benefit from. Problem is riot has changed most of their items (over the years) to assist marksmen more than any other class, further exaggerating their problem. Supports are where you also see the most variety of other classes because of their kits and builds; tanks can engage or peel, mages can provide peel or coverfire, fighters can be a distraction and crowd controller, ext. Theoretically almost any champion can be played as such, if you've got great teamwork with your lane partner, non-meta picks blindsiding enemies from the unexpected usage. Supports used to be ward-bots way back when as well; gold income was harder to come by, wards cost gold, there was no such thing as trinkets, and there wasn't a ward cap. I'm glad they gave some useful power to supports, but I'll criticize their lack of preemptive nerfs on both kinds of carries to compensate for supports providing even more team effectiveness.

Now for your ending question: I'd say marksmen should be like ranged skirmishers, they'll kill other champions if left alone long enough, but should be more effective at taking objectives instead of killing enemy champions, however towers/turrets should be buffed accordingly (or several nerfs undone) so it's more obvious why the marksman is on the team again. After all the rift isn't a deathmatch, and used to have more strategy.

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