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We need to talk about assassin design philosophy

Elohaven··8 votes·5,179 views

We need to do this with every class to address items, snowball, and damage.

What defines an assassin?

Are they champions meant to 100-0 squishies or kill low health targets? If someone is mispositioned or not with their team, should they be able to die? Should assassins be able to 1v1 without the element of surprise? Do they need to snowball to do their job?

We need to go back to square one - our foundation - and define the jobs of champions. Sometimes a target is positioned pretty well but still dies due to the damage. Other times, if assassins don't snowball, they just get shutdown. Tanks can't even handle their damage at times along with their slipperiness despite being their counter.

We also need to do this every class except tanks. Bruisers with the sub-class of assassin need to have a look at too. Irelia/Jax - what is their intended job. We need clearer checks and balances. Clearer strengths and weaknesses. Not just CC the enemy.

I think starting with assassins is a better spot to start and then bruisers since the bruiser class is more diverse in their jobs.

It's also what I want to focus on in this thread. Ask yourself this even if they're basic questions:

  • Should assassins 100-0 squishies?

  • If yes, why? If they are with other team members with shields/healing, should assassins be able to get through that? However, if they are how do you counter them? Tanks? But they aren't seeing play due to the true damage and shred?

  • If no, why? Should they 50-0, 70-0, 40-0, 60-0 squishies or kill low health targets? However, wouldn't that mean enemies need to be brought down low in teamfights by abilities like Brand ult?

  • Should assassins be viable with/without snowball?

  • Should they be able to 100-0 you if supremely fed?

  • Should they spike hard with items?

  • Should assassins have lower defensive attributes?

  • Should they be able to build tankier items?

  • Should they be required to build tankier items in exchange for damage or be a slippery glass cannon?

I think these are good points to start.

45 Comments

heroikc4 votes

If they remain 100-0, we need hard counters and tanks to be back in the game. Otherwise, make their damage more of an execute on low health targets.

Well, hard to say about snowballing; hate it but I hate elusive burst targets.

Glass cannon or less damage.

Also, you're right; it is a good place and thankfully someone has started asking.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

we need hard counters

One step ahead of you fam Kayle

heroikc3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9v4npK6x,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-06-15T20:45:07.101+0000)

One step ahead of you fam Kayle

Ones that aren't broken like Kayle, please?

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

Ones that aren't broken like Kayle, please?

Idk.

Tryndamere I guess?...

Its All Skillzz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9v4npK6x,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-15T21:01:56.386+0000)

Idk.

Tryndamere I guess?...

hes more broken than kayle lol.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its All Skillzz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9v4npK6x,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-15T21:09:20.779+0000)

hes more broken than kayle lol.

You gotta be fucking kidding me.

heroikc2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its All Skillzz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9v4npK6x,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-15T21:09:20.779+0000)

hes more broken than kayle lol.

And less practical and useful beyond splitpushing.

heroikc3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9v4npK6x,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-15T21:01:56.386+0000)

Idk.

Tryndamere I guess?...

Someone more practical?

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

Someone more practical?

Okay you're pushing some serious limitations on me.

First you demand someone that ISN'T broken.

But then you also demand someone that's practical.

Make your freaking choice.

If you really want a third suggestion: Zilean

heroikc3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9v4npK6x,comment-id=000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-06-15T21:20:48.767+0000)

Okay you're pushing some serious limitations on me.

First you demand someone that ISN'T broken.

But then you also demand someone that's practical.

Make your freaking choice.

If you really want a third suggestion: Zilean

Now you see the problem? And we're back at broken XP

AirKingNeo1 votes

Kayle is broken? What?

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kayle/diamond

heroikc2 votes

{quoted}

Kayle is broken? What?

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kayle/diamond

passive armor shred per autoattack, can heal/speed boost herself, power slow opponents, is both melee and aoe ranged, and her ult is an f u to everyone, particularly since she outputs so much damage. She's pointless to have and painful to deal with.

AirKingNeo1 votes

lists entire kit pretending that makes someone broken

Ok, now can you give an actual reason why Kayle is "broken" despite the facts, we know as statistics, which there is no excuse for denying or not knowing because everyone has access to them, saying otherwise?

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

Ok, now can you give an actual reason why Kayle is "broken" despite the facts, we know as statistics, which there is no excuse for denying or not knowing because everyone has access to them, saying otherwise?

Broken doesn't mean "instawin"; just means painful to play against...or with, in some cases. Also, your statistics deal in a minority 3% popularity (with .3 maining her), given there are over a hundred champs who are easier to play and feel more satisfying (no doubt due to the snowball/burst meta). Can you point one thing out that makes Kayle "fair"? And not just statistics, but mechanics? Or is that not your forte?

AirKingNeo1 votes

Kayle's E has a cooldown. Kayle has mana issues. Kayle is forced to take a bad rune called Transcendence. Kayle is weak in melee range. Kayle has no escapes but Flash.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

Kayle has mana issues. Kayle is forced to take a bad rune called Transcendence.

item 3042 item 3040 item 3508 item 3115 item 3091 item 3124

Where's your god now?

AirKingNeo1 votes

i just want to say as a kayle main all 3 of those items that give mana suck on her

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

i just want to say as a kayle main all 3 of those items that give mana suck on her

How so?

AirKingNeo1 votes

Essence Reaver: Spaming W without AP isn't good. The CDR on E is meaningless.

Manamune: Takes to long to stack, you can't rush it because you get Nashors, BoRK is better.

Seraph's: Takes too long to stack, you can't rush it because you get Nashors.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

Spaming W without AP isn't good.

Which is I get both Nashor's and ESPECIALLY Seraph's (not to mention the Rageblade).

The CDR on E is meaningless.

Yeah. It is.

However, since you haven't complained about literally any of the other things about it, I'd say it's a decent item (you even bought it yourself on one of your recent games).

Manamune: Takes too long to stack

Seraph's: Takes too long to stack

Kayle is a hyper carry though. She's supposed to reach her ultimate power in the late game.

you can't rush it because you get Nashors

you can't rush it because you get Nashors.

Nashor's is a sucky item to rush (IN MY OPINION).

  1. Doesn't give AD meaning you lose out on bully potential with your 100% AD scaling Q.

  2. Doesn't give mana meaning you go oom in lane way too quickly.

  3. The on-hit passive only becomes relevant once you build other AP items.

BoRK is better.

I disagree.

  1. Gives miniscule AD.

  2. Gives almost non-existant Attack Speed.

  3. Lifesteal isn't as useful on Kayle seeing as she doesn't build full AD and focus more on on-hit (which is unaffected by lifesteal) and attack speed.

  4. The passive 8% current health as physical damage is really only useful against tanks, which you're already shredding with your passive and Wit's End.

  5. The active isn't very useful, considering W + Q already gives you the slow and speed up you need.

  6. Expensive for the stats it gives.

However, since you didn't complain about any of the other things about the items, I'd still say they're decent.

Do you have any other arguments?

AirKingNeo1 votes

Please stop trying to debate with a half million mastery point Kayle main on what to build on Kayle because I really do not want to put in the effort. I already gave you the explanations, and that's it (also you ignored how stupidly powerful 8% current HP damage is from BoRK).

Also your build doesn't even have your rush item, Berserker boots, nor do you have Hurricane.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

Please stop trying to debate with a half million mastery point Kayle main on what to build on Kayle because I really do not want to put in the effort. I already gave you the explanations, and that's it (also you ignored how stupidly powerful 8% current HP damage is from BoRK).

Also your build doesn't even have your rush item, Berserker boots, nor do you have Hurricane.

Welp.

I was trying to have a nice conversation here but okay.

Have a nice day "half million mastery point I'm always right and anyone who has another opinion than me is wrong"

heroikc2 votes

{quoted}

Kayle's E has a cooldown. Kayle has mana issues. Kayle is forced to take a bad rune called Transcendence. Kayle is weak in melee range. Kayle has no escapes but Flash.

Everything has a cooldown...OMG What broken champ doesn't/didn't have mana issues? Old Yorrick, Old Galio, Amumu, etc, etc. Transcendence ain't bad; best excuse to buy a bunch of cdr items. Tell that to her ult, permaslow, and range. Weak in melee? Please... So do most fighters and tanks and mages and...is that even relevant?

AirKingNeo1 votes

yeah but kayle actually can't do anything while her E is on cooldown.

Kayle has mana issues because she needs to use her E to do anything, and her abilities have high mana costs.

but Kayle only buys Nashors for CDR, and Transcendence is bad, hence no on takes it.

Kayle doesn't have a perma slow. Kayle has ranged base stats, therefore is weak in melee range.

Tanks and fighters can build tanky. Kayle is a RANGED carry with no mobility.

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

yeah but kayle actually can't do anything while her E is on cooldown.

Kayle has mana issues because she needs to use her E to do anything, and her abilities have high mana costs.

but Kayle only buys Nashors for CDR, and Transcendence is bad, hence no on takes it.

Kayle doesn't have a perma slow. Kayle has ranged base stats, therefore is weak in melee range.

Tanks and fighters can build tanky. Kayle is a RANGED carry with no mobility.

And it is active for 10 seconds. Without cdr, the cooldown is only 8-4 seconds long.

At worst, she only needs her E and ult to win. And E is consistently only 45 mana. Besides, she can build things like Lichbane to boost cdr, mana, spellblade, ap, etc.

Lol, why you say transcendence is bad, I will never understand. The only bad thing about it is the delay.

Hyperbole, man. Besides, any slow for someone ranged is a boon. And it matters only early game, when ult is a nonfactor.

Yes, but how many are short ranged and/or immobile themselves? Range is one of the cheekiest things in top lane.

AirKingNeo1 votes

8 seconds a long time to be useless.

Your knowledge on Kayle isn't very much if you think she builds Lich Bane still.

Most ranged top laners are mobile though. Kayle isn't.

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

8 seconds a long time to be useless.

Your knowledge on Kayle isn't very much if you think she builds Lich Bane still.

Most ranged top laners are mobile though. Kayle isn't.

Assuming the opponent is strong enough to do anything.

Mana ain't a real issue, sweetheart; she has options. That's the point.

Most ranged top laners are newer. Kayle isn't

AirKingNeo1 votes

most melee top laners can beta kayle in melee range

kayle's mana is shit. Have you played the champion?

and ranged top laners having mobility at all is unhealthy,

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

most melee top laners can beta kayle in melee range

kayle's mana is shit. Have you played the champion?

and ranged top laners having mobility at all is unhealthy,

I keep seeing you use the same argument over and over again.

"Kayle's mana is shit"

"Kayle has mana issues"

But when I actually propose a solution to that problem, you just flat out ignore it and disregard my opinion because "lol half million mastery point scrub"?

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

most melee top laners can beta kayle in melee range

kayle's mana is shit. Have you played the champion?

and ranged top laners having mobility at all is unhealthy,

Assuming Kayle doesn't poke them down and tear them up.

Yes, and against her. Thankfully she's not a popular pick.

Well, clearly Riot doesn't care about that; Gnar Jayce Lissandra Urgot Yasuo. Immobility is probably one of the few constant things that keeps Kayle under control.

IceAYon1 votes

I think they should 100-0. Their job is kinda of kill one and gtfo. Assassins should be able to get through healing, but it should for shielding if it is weak. Sometimes, assassins are jumping in to die or get a kill. Unless the assassin is Leblanc or Zed, who are likely to get the kill without trying. There needs to be a way to counter them. But they did with timing like every assassin needs to do. If the enemy is building defensive items, assassins shouldn't 100-0 unless fed. Maybe 70-0 if they have one item. To prevent solo kill?

Since the meta is changing, kinda of hard to say if they are in a good spot or not.

flibitydoo1 votes

I think your questions are more like attributes that specific assassins in the game can each have.

Primarily an assassin is an independant worker that focuses on killing vulnerable targets through burst. The vulnerable targets are often alone. And often times they have the advantage of initiative.

The individual nuances like "isolation" "skillshots" "crowd control" "stealth" "mobility" "support role" "waveclear" "manaless" "untargetability" those are just what make them unique and distinctive from each other.

Elohaven1 votes

Those are not their individual nuances though for assassins.

Assassins are meant to burst enemies - the question comes down to how, how much, how many, and why?

Vulnerable targets - ADC/Support - are often not alone yet assassins, EG Talon/Rengar, can hop on the squishy, 100-0 and get CC'd without punishment or get CC'd and die.

flibitydoo1 votes

well no, that's where you're wrong. Those nuances exist and you've even made them in your comment.

Shaco is going to knockout one target at a time. Katarina is going to clean up entire teams. That's a distinction that makes those two assassins different when considering the two. Same way you'd consider Shaco has stealth and cc and Katarina does not.

Vulnerable targets/isolation is literally Kha'zix's entire shtick. He works off isolation and if they aren't then he can't.

The way Talon and Rengar enter fights is completely different from each other. And both are entirely different from how Zed does.

Every single champion I've put into this comment so far, I'm sure we all agree they're all assassins, and yet at the same time I've pointed out massive glaring differences between them that you want to use to stereotype all of them into. Which won't work. They're different by design. To try and classify them using all of these metrics beyond "they kill people" would be to say that none of them are assassins because none of them have everything.

Elohaven1 votes

Individual nuances in their class yes. I agree with

I thought you meant in general which I could just introduce Kai'Sa with Kha'zix or Jinx with Katarina

Anomandarist1 votes

This might seem like a crazy idea, but what if all assassin damage was set to be percent max health. Then you have their full combo do a base 20%, and then make the scaling on their skills add an additional 50-60% to enforce damage is built instead of tankyness, making sure to restrict damage type to only physical or magic and not true. This allows Assassins to be able to deal massive damage to any one target, but not murder someone with out first having it set up.

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

This might seem like a crazy idea, but what if all assassin damage was set to be percent max health. Then you have their full combo do a base 20%, and then make the scaling on their skills add an additional 50-60% to enforce damage is built instead of tankyness, making sure to restrict damage type to only physical or magic and not true. This allows Assassins to be able to deal massive damage to any one target, but not murder someone with out first having it set up.

% max health=tank destroying.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

% max health=tank destroying.

%max health, as riot has stated in the past, is less a "tank busting" stat and more a "I do similar damage to everyone" stat.

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

%max health, as riot has stated in the past, is less a "tank busting" stat and more a "I do similar damage to everyone" stat.

Did they state that in relation to tanky characters who need to appear damaging to appear threatening?

Anomandarist1 votes

Nothing wrong with that. Why shouldn't an assassin be able to jump on a low health target and take them out of a fight regardless of the targets role? I guess in my mind it is ok because first the target would have to be at a low enough health percentage wise, but also isn't that the power fantasy of playing an assassin? I umping in at the most opportune time to eliminate an unprepared target.

Though this also would work better with my idea of a class weakness diagram like such tanks > damage focused (dps, burst, marksmen, mages) > tanky fighters ( damage defense mixed) > tanks

With assassin's being able to damage everyone equally at the best moment.

Supports would be able to save everyone equally at the best moments.

Netorare1 votes

The only balanced assassins are Rengar, Shaco and Pyke others are just pure bullshit with their stupid and worthless mobility and ways of escaping from everything. Assassins are just badly designed in league and that's it. Like i said, just remove lethality and 10% shield&heal items so both fanbases won't cry at one another. Riot should just put LB and Fizz in the gutter till they find a way of FIXING them or just rework them.

Paroe1 votes

@thread

An assassin is a champion designed to burst down squishy targets while ahead, clean up priority targets when behind, AND get out. To this effect they have:

  1. High burst damage
  2. Hyper mobility (Defined as instant mobility in AND out as basic abilities)
  3. Caster-type gameplay.

That being said theres three kinds of assassins.

AD assassins (True assassins); Champions whose entire premise is go in, burst their target, and get out. AP assassins (Skirmishers): Champions whose entire premise is go in, do some burst, get out, wait for cooldowns, then go back in for the kill before getting out. Divers (Can be made up of true assassin-types or skirmishers as is the case with nocturne and ekko): Champions who have the ability to assassinate (They burst down their targets) but lack hyper mobility.

Riot is very clear on what they want the various kinds of assassin to be. You can see it plain as day through itemization and their reworks.

Elohaven1 votes

AP/AD assassins both have low cooldowns. Akali isn't a skirmisher - she's more of a diver with the mobility of an assassin as well.

SammyDayspring1 votes

Riot does not seem to be able to find the balance between the two. Assassins should be able to one shot squishies, but there should be counters like cc and shields. Every patch that Riot comes out with skews it too far in one direction or the other - either they can't do anything or they can't be countered.

It doesn't help that every conversation seems to result in "that champ is broken." They are not broken if they are doing exactly what they are designed to do. It may be frustrating to play against, but it would be boring if everyone could just one shot everyone without trying (which is what we are getting to now).

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