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MASSIVE nutpunch-level nerf/gutting of Thornmail on PBE!!!

h0tkarl·8/4/2015, 5:14:36 PM·155 votes·9,802 views

UNIQUE Passive now reflects 15% of damage + 25% of the user’s bonus Armor, changed from 30% of damage

APPARENTLY it isnt enough that ADCs are the ONLY required class, nor that you MUST have a ranged ADC to siege towers or take objectives reliably.

All must bow before the ADC overlords. NONE may be allowed to survive their damage. Any teamates exist only to protect and support their ADC masters and bask in their radiance

If you do the math, even with 200 bonus armor this is a WHOPPING 30% nerf vs crits against an AA based ADC like ashe/cait/jinx with 300 AD and IE/PD. You wont break even until over 400 bonus armor. ** OH WAIT THATS BEFORE YOU GET ARMOR SHREDDED BY UBIQUITOUS BLACK CLEAVER OR CHAMP ABILITIES. So in reality you would need 600 bonus armor factoring in a 30% shred JUST TO BREAK EVEN with current Thornmail**

The only ADC who do significant on-hit damage are vayne and koggy. This change is at best a wash against them.

TL;DR: The one item in the game that had some measurable countering effect on ADC is now nerfed into oblivion. It provided NO health, NO magic resist, NO offence whatsoever. It was a sacrifice of an ENTIRE item slot just to marginally challenge ADC using MOUSE2 on you and destroying you even if you were a tank.

Welcome to the league of ADCs

Bonus math section!

ADC with 300 AD from IE PD BT LW BOOTS GA 300 AD, 55% CRIT (almost exactly 5/9)

TANK with 200 BONUS armor

9 attacks 4 NONCRIT for 300 apiece, 1200 subtotal 5 CRIT for 750 apiece, 3750 subtotal 4950 total raw dmg.

95 returned noncrit with new TM, 380 subtotal 162 returned crit with new TM, 815 subtotal 1192 TOTAL RETURNED WITH NEW TM

OLD TM returned 0.3 x 4950 = 1485

1192/1485 = 0.8

20% NERF TO DAMAGE RETURNED VS STANDARD ADC BUILD COMPARED WITH OLD THORNMAIL

WITH 12% CRIT FROM RUNES, BECOMES A 24% NERF

220 Comments

Critmaster Garen8/4/2015, 5:21:27 PM37 votes

fighter rework

nerfs armor for fighters and tanks and buffs auto attackers. k.

i wouldnt be surprised if those changes to darius, garen, and skarner pidgeonhole them entirely into defensive itemization, which now has become less effective and more expensive.

ok, i havent seen all the changes and im getting ahead of myself. but what am i supposed to expect, when i can already see a change to thornmail that reduces the effectiveness of the item for fighters who do mixed builds instead of stacking 5 armor items?

Matezoide8/4/2015, 5:43:55 PM23 votes

What the actual fuck? Is this supposed to be a Rammus-only item now or something?

h0tkarl8/4/2015, 5:40:31 PM20 votes

Frozen Heart aura nerfed by 25%

Randuin passive nerfed by 50%

Randuin active attack slow REMOVED

Now thornmail gutted too

MLDzXnRRR8/4/2015, 5:33:28 PM12 votes

I hope they buff Yasuo, Braum, Teemo and Rammus - the anti ADC champions...

Sakura Mirage8/4/2015, 5:25:49 PM11 votes

You're missing the point that riot is a bunch of Riven mains. Riven did you say armour nerf?!?!? Proceeds to drowl.

ihaveapotion8/4/2015, 7:45:03 PM10 votes

The death of tanks was in like 2010, or so.. now rito is digging up bones and kicking them.

Saianna8/4/2015, 6:43:35 PM9 votes

Thornmail was almost always weak'ish.

Magic resists weaken damage return
Damage return can only stop them from life stealing
It's stats add just armor
passive doesn't work on abilities
doesn't scale with time
doesn't work on crits
totally negated by Last whisper
cost innefective
doesn't give you boost (that you feel being stronger/tankier) like other tank items
works in only few matchups

And they nerfed it instead of buffing. That's good call Riot. Just as good as shooting in your own thumb with a shotgun.

Saianna8/4/2015, 6:06:33 PM8 votes

Imo Riot should buff last whisper, cause y'know.. Who cares about Tanks? We have LCS to feed!

7ha7guy7778/4/2015, 5:50:59 PM4 votes

Against a champion with 100 AD new thornmail on its own reflects more damage than old (30 old vs 15 + 25 = 40 new). The more armor you build, the more you reflect. With a full armor build (700 armor) malphite can reflect 190ish damage from someone with 300 AD while only taking 36 damage if they don't have armor pen. However, black cleaver counters thornmail even harder now since it shreds armor which reduces thornmail's reflection damage

Meep Man8/4/2015, 8:33:21 PM4 votes

Well whoever usually bought it usually built armor in the first place anyway so its ok with me. A good buff to Rammus, Malphite, Taric, even Garen.

Also, two things.

Remember this is the PBE and if it turns out it sucks now, it'll be buffed, reverted, or changed.
Remember this is also with a huge Fighter/Tank item overhaul. This may end up being a huge buff.

Treetop698/4/2015, 6:10:33 PM3 votes

ADC HP is low enough that current thornmail a tank can walk up to an ADC and stand still, the ADC will die before they kill the tank, even with lifesteal.

You can play a cait, walk up to a rammus with thornmail, and shoot him while he uses Shift+4 over and over until you die.

This changes just means you will die slower to the rammus. You also do not take into account the fact that you have 5 team mates death-diving the ADC who just blows up.

Paress8/4/2015, 6:13:15 PM3 votes

Still waiting for hybrid buff itemization ...

Wait. Since the beginning of S2 ?

SouL1ess8/5/2015, 3:52:28 AM2 votes

It's still a passive that provides zero interaction between players, something that Riot was working on to fix as a gameplay issue.

No matter how much it gets nerfed and how much it is underpar, it still needs a rework.

Squidblimp8/5/2015, 1:35:08 PM2 votes

THIS POST IS INACCURATE. Did I get your attention? Good. Now, they have stated on the PBE that the initial 15% damage reflection from thornmail is pre-mitigation damage, so damage that WOULD have been dealt before resistances. This is similar to what they did with will of the ancients. Additionally it scales with armor, though the scaling damage is post-mitigation. Anyway, THE MORE YOU KNOW.

Shosuko8/5/2015, 1:40:51 AM1 votes

A fighter hard counters an adc in a 1v1, but an ADC is supposed to counter a fighter in team fights / peel.

This item changed that. You buy it against a fed carry and suddenly the carry, the only one who can put out the constant damage needed to take you down, is unable to do so.

Good change.