ADC with 335 movement speed early game ends up being faster than someone with 345 at like 10mins

taleofsonata·Oct 8, 2017·27 votes·2,347 views

Seriously? Why is every crit items overloaded with % movement speed increase? Can they be halved for range champions?

74 Comments

sky blowerOct 8, 20176 votes

You forgot item 3742 item 3022 item 3071 item 3800 . Melee champions don't need to be able to always catch up to ADC. They just need to catch up to them once and that's enough.

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

once is not enough when champions like Caitlyn mostlikely killed you before you even reach her but on the off chance she didnt she has her w and her e.

sky blowerOct 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

once is not enough when champions like mostlikely killed you before you even reach her but on the off chance she didnt she has her w and her e.

First, most melee champs have dash or some kind of gap closer. So they can still reach you when you use your dash. Second, for those who don't have dash, we call them juggernaut, but they still have some kind of slow/cc which can be immediately be used on you when they get close. Nasus W, Cho E, W etc. Third, some of these items apply slow once they get close to ADC. Try kiting when you are hit by righteous glory. Without MS in critical items, ADC's life would just be horrible

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

if you relying on the gap closer to reach the cailtlyn initially how are you relying on the same gap closer to reach her after her e and you completely ignoring her w which can stop dashes in their tracks or at least make you walk around them. or that she has more movement speed and range than you or your dash

Hayaishi2Oct 8, 20175 votes

Complaining about the wrong stuff as usual.

taleofsonataOct 8, 201717 votes

{quoted}

Complaining about the wrong stuff as usual.

Commenting without any explaination or argument as usual.

LeonerdoOct 9, 20175 votes

Don't forget that a tank with item 3742 or item 3800 or an Assassin with item 3142 or a fighter with item 3078 or even a support with item 3117 still match or outrun Marksmen. The only classes that ADCs are faster than on average are Mages and Enchanters. And all it would take for Mages to match Marksmen is item 3285 becoming meta again.

Seriously I think this is the first time that I've heard the complaint that ADCs move too fast, despite these boards being very anti-ADC.

Sun Wu RyuumokuOct 9, 20172 votes

Lucian item 3153 have fun

LeonerdoOct 9, 20171 votes

Good job, you found the exception to the rule. You picked the most mobile (and least ADC-like) marksman.
BotRK only makes him faster for 3 out of every 90 seconds, at best.
We're not talking about windowed mobility here. The only reason I mentioned Ghostblade before is because it gives both out-of-combat MS and the activatable MS (which lasts twice as long as BotRK), meaning it is relevant most of the time, rather than 1/30th of the time.
I don't know why I wasted 5 minutes on this. Thanks for that.

Sun Wu RyuumokuOct 9, 20171 votes

Good job, you found the exception to the rule. You picked the most mobile (and least ADC-like) marksman.

Good luck to reach Tristana Xayah

LeonerdoOct 9, 20171 votes

Xayah is easy af to reach, but she'll dodge the first thing you throw at her.

Tristana is BS, yes, because she has too many tools (CC, mobility, bonus range). That's why she and kalista are top-tier in Pro play. But bringing it back to the original topic, they aren't strong because of the MS from Zeal.

Sun Wu RyuumokuOct 10, 20171 votes

i agree

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

Least adc like marksmen Ezreal Corki ? thats not really the exception to the rule as neither deadmans plate nor rightious glory nor youmus are constant and trinity force is lots of very small stats while adcs still get average 10% more movement speed and movemnt speed increasing or dash abilities and if not or even if they do still have a chance of having heavy cc slows that hurt melee champions more than stuns lasting for longer and impeeding more roots that do the same. they also work on ranged champions allowing you to get away easily even if they can still fire spells at you.

PhDs NutsOct 9, 20174 votes

The items are to give marksmen more movespeed for orbwalking. To compensate, fighters and tanks typically have movement abilities.

Truly PridefulOct 9, 20173 votes

Honestly don't halve the movespeed, just remove it. The items are plenty strong without it. Who outside of ADCs even builds the zeal items? Yasuo and Yi are the only potential ones I can think of. Maybe Gangplank as well if he still does the shiv thing, but I never see him anymore so I'm not sure.

Chembaron YamadaOct 9, 20173 votes

These items are literally designed with marksmen as the main target. Making them benefit less from items which are designed for them is kinda weird, don't you think?

They get movement speed as a form of defense, letting them kite better.

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

Designed. Wrong Before season 4 adcs picked up 3 straight ad items botrk and berserkers boots and one defensive item. Static Shiv and Trinity force were items for Master Yi Gangplank and Jax to use the movement speed. Adcs picked up more than 50% crit builds in season 4. After it being in season 3 worlds where they also dropped their defensive item then when solo que couldnt stay safe like the pros could after about 2 months of people crying out it wasnt fair, ad and crit items saw buffs and adcs saw increases to their hp and armor.

Chembaron YamadaOct 9, 20171 votes

There was the marksmen update in season 6, in which they changed, redesigned and introduced crit itemization. That was the point in which crit got redesigned as items with marksmen as the main target when it comes to purchases.

Design purpose can change with time and that is what happened here. These items are designed for marksmen now, that's how it is. They even introduced alot of kit interactions with crit for marksmen back then.

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

So put taken not designed. this change really took them away from fighters not because fighters dont want the stats any more but because defense got nerfed in season 5 several times and base stats got changed lowering hp5 and armor for melee champions also the introduction of fighter items and the nerfs of them so adcs stopped getting them so the increase in damage from adcs and reduction in defense cause fighters not to be able to take it because they would die too fast before they got to do anything so now they have to build defensive items and just titanic they dont get to scale with damage any more.

Best princess EUOct 8, 20172 votes

but adc have 325 base ms? or 330 for some of them

Teridax68Oct 8, 20178 votes

Most ADCs have either 325 or 330 movement speed, with Gnar, Lucian and Sivir having 335, and Graves having 340. Even with a speed of 325, though, one Zeal item already puts them over the 340 mark, and since marksmen usually get two, they end up with over 355 movement speed, more than the base movement speed of any melee champion. Factoring in boots makes the gap even wider, as Zeal amplifies their flat movement speed. Effectively, marksmen end up having some of the highest persistent movement in the game, without even factoring in the movement speed boosts or dashes they often have in their kits.

KaìjuOct 9, 20172 votes

Why did you mention Gnar and Graves when talking about ADCs?

Teridax68Oct 9, 20171 votes

Graves is definitely a marksman (he was reworked for the Marksman Update) and mini-Gnar is also a marksman. They're both exceptional in their design and much of their itemization, but I still added them here for the sake of completeness, particularly since it doesn't affect the main assessment.

KaìjuOct 9, 20171 votes

Marksmen and ADC however are not the same thing. A marksmen is someone who gains much of their damage from ranged autos, while an ADC is a normally auto attacked based but not strictly, champion who carries through a very AD heavy build. Graves sure I guess you could call him an ADC jungler but Gnar is not an ADC.

Teridax68Oct 9, 20171 votes

ADCs encompass marksmen and some melee champions, and generally the terms ADC and marksman are used interchangeably. Gnar in marksman form is squishy and almost purely autoattack-based, so there really isn't much of a point in establishing a distinction there.

ParoeOct 9, 20172 votes

@thread The reason is because of price inflation. If zeal items DIDNT have the movement speed then they would cost 300-400 or so LESS because youre paying for that movespeed in the combine cost.

Can you imagine item 3087 costing 2300....?

Spank the FoxOct 8, 20171 votes

What ADC has a base of 335 MS?

OHminusOct 8, 20176 votes

Lucian and Sivir

KaìjuOct 9, 20173 votes

To be fair Sivir has a really low range with no dashes, all she has is her R and passive. If Sivir was slower she would actually be worthless since she would be in the same boat as Ashe mobility wise but without the CC or range.

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

not with R and passive both giving her movement speed and crit items also giing her movement speed. you know what is low range 200 range if you have more than 400 range you do not have low range other champions can have more than you but you do not have low range

KaìjuOct 9, 20173 votes

You know there are lots of abilities that out range most ADCs right?

5000000000000000Oct 9, 20172 votes

400 is practically melee range tbh

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

and 125 is actually melee range

5000000000000000Oct 9, 20172 votes

Sure, but a lot of melee champions have abilities that span 400 range. Darius' Q radius is 425 and E pull range is about 535, according to wiki. I'm not just talking about autoattack range, but rather that if you're attacking at 400ish range as a marksman vs a melee, you're putting yourself at danger.

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

or not kiteing with your superiour movement speed.

KaìjuOct 9, 20171 votes

You know a lot of champions can gapclose really easily at 500 units right?

5000000000000000Oct 9, 20172 votes

Pretty much every melee has a gapcloser and/or CC that's 400 range or longer.

KaìjuOct 9, 20171 votes

Not every but a lot of them do. Divers, some fighters, skirmishes, assassin's, and more.

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

pretty much every adc has auto attack range of 500 or longer and spell range of even more self peel either in the form of mobility or slows or roots which are all effective stuns for melee champions. aka 60% or more of the roster. I only chose 400 as the lowest end of what a ranged champion can be not just adc and that belongs to rakan not any adc

KaìjuOct 10, 20171 votes

You know slows don't work on champions with gap closers right? Ashe and Kog being two examples of champs that can't get away from anyone with any mobility. Not to mention swifties and deadmans making kiting them out impossible since they reduce slows and give lots of move speed.

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

abilities out ranging adcs auto attack range does not make your auto attack range smaller.

KaìjuOct 9, 20171 votes

No, but it does mean that ADCs don't have that long a range if both artillery and some burst mages out range them. Not to mention champions with really long gap closers like Akali or Irelia.

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

you have to dodge one super long range skill shot that even if you get hit you heal the damage in what 3-5 auto attacks which takes 2-5 seconds to do. I chose 400 range as the short end of range champions i dont think any 400 range champion exisits except rakan who is very recent

KaìjuOct 10, 20171 votes

Syndra ult can one shot you, Veigar can just about one shot you, Xerath if he lands his stun can just about one shot you, Taliyah if she lands the throw can just about one shot you. Lots of mages can still just about or out right kill an ADC in one combo. And if they survive that's why you have tanks with something like Bramble Vest or Thornmail pressuring them off CS so they can't heal.

LordGeovanniOct 10, 20171 votes

and adcs can auto attack faster and kill them faster than any of them can set up their combo to '1 shot' adcs out heal thornmails also.

KaìjuOct 10, 20171 votes

ADCs can auto attack Xerath from 900 units away? Or Syndra from 800 units away? And doing it before Syndra can just spam Q at nothing and click R on an ADC from outside their range? You're demonizing marksmen as if they can out range mages but they can't. Pretty much every mage besides battle mages can out range ADCs and if your tanks are doing their job they can't get on top of the mages. Plus show me a video of an ADC out healing Thornmail because I have never seen it so I'd love to see it as proof of your claim.

LordGeovanniOct 11, 20171 votes

Zerath is not gonna hit his 1 poke spell from 900 units away just because he has a longer range when it has a delay and adcs run aroun at just below 500 units per second with 2 item 3086 items and boots. You can only site the small amount of champions with the possibility to out range a marksmen when marksmen do that to almost every chamion in the game but on point and click damage that beats most spells damage and has more uptime than all of them. Takes you own points and you can apply them to adcs because they have spells of that range too none the less out ranging the average range in the game.

KaìjuOct 11, 20171 votes

I play ADC almost exclusively and I have never gotten to just under 500 move speed. Show me videos of that happening in real games because I would love to know how that's possible. 45 plus 5% plus 5%, that's what Ashe gets with Grieves and both Shard items and she gets to about 405. What ADC is regularly going 500? Tell me, I want videos proving your point because you have provided me with no substantial counter points outside of "ADCs out range melee" and you know what mages out range ADCs. If you were good you'd land your rotation as Xerath every time, not like it's hard to land. W slow into E into Q. Or E W Q. Or just Q. "Oh they move so fast at just under 500 units a second!" Show me proof of that claim.

LordGeovanniOct 11, 20171 votes

so you trying to say you point of 2% of champions out range maybe 18% your champions auto attacks on abilites is more valid that your 18% of champions auto attacks outranging 55-60% of the champion roster period. Ps. you playing adcs almost exclusively is pretty obvious you dont even need to look that up none the less have you say it seeing as you have no idea how bs it is to play versus an adc as a none adc champion. Also what rotation Xerath poking you from 900 range he only has 2 spells that can hit you his q and his ult if you in range for him to fire his easily dodgeable e even more so than his easily dodgeable q you can drain tank and kill him in 3 shots forget dodging his q or w

KaìjuOct 11, 20171 votes

Except you're wrong because Xeraths Q and W have 1100 range and his E has 1050 range. If an ADC is getting close to you as Xerath you deserve to die.