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Id actually love if you reverted the Fizz rework Rito

Penns··18 votes·1,817 views

I just cant enjoy being this limited on a once versatile champ. All you do now is go fishing for a max range ult on someone and if you dont hit? Well too bad, try again in ~a minute or more. And lets say the top laner has a Maw/is a tank, the jungler has a Maw/is a tank as well, the mid laner got an Abyssal (hell, a item 1057 is enough if you have Barrier or stuff like Lux shield) and the support has some tanky items. The only one you can kill now is the adc... but wait, the support is Janna, she has Exhaust and a Locket ? Well, gl doing anything.

The rework didnt even make him more healthy, people that complained about him before complain even more now because of his "insane burst" and people that knew how to counter assassins like him have an even easier time.

I also find it incredibly counter intuitive that a 100% melee assassin has to hit a high range skillshot before being able to "assassinate" someone. Like if an adc runs at you alone like a dumbass, you should be able to punish his positioning hard but, since he is running at you, you can get a mid range shark at best and your burst wont be enough if he invested 720 gold in MR... so you die to a few 700 dmg crits.

Why not just revert the rework, buff him a bit, and call it a day?

29 Comments

ABlueQuaker8 votes

It feels like shit to play. It's obnoxious early. It falls off harder than Shaco past 25 minutes. Please revert.

RexSaur2 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Blue Quaker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9aZnYpy9,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-12-02T22:43:30.945+0000)

It feels like shit to play. It's obnoxious early. It falls off harder than Shaco past 25 minutes. Please revert.

Shaco is actually strong late game now, you should have compared him to pantheon, and yes pantheon is more useful than fizz after 25 minutes in.

yoshi27907 votes

tbh, Fizz rework is BAD.

You have to land your ultimate to be decent..

BUT Landing your ultimate is cluncky as hell! AND dodging Fizz's ultimate is very hard since it's hitbox is nowhere near it's visuals and you can't even see it coming...

If you play as Fizz you spent the whole game trying to get a perfect ultimate...

IF you play against Fizz you sometimes OWN Fizz, and Sometimes get completely one-shot out of nowhere, or dodged the ultimate, but broken hitboxes say you are hit...

RIOT please.

I don't really agree with the 0 dmg vs people with mr...

Mr doesn't really matter THAT much, you just HAVE to land your ultimate.

Penns6 votes

He lost the on hit damage from W and his dot is trash now, so surviving his burst is all you need. Thats why mr is so good. Lets say a Fizz does 1600 flat damage with his combo mid game. If you have 15 MR after his pen, it does ~1400 damage.

With just a Negatron for 720 gold, you have 55 MR and the combo does around 1030 dmg, 900 with a finished Abyssal.

ABlueQuaker5 votes

AP Bruiser Fizz was my most played champion. Post-rework AP Bruiser isn't even viable anymore and he's forced to use his one mobility tool if he actually wants to kill someone.

I feel like every reworked assassin is substantially weaker than they used to be. Half the time Fizz, Talon and LeBlanc get a 1 for 1 trade as a best-case scenario.

Catastrop1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Blue Quaker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9aZnYpy9,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-12-02T22:46:36.273+0000)

LeBlanc get a 1 for 1 trade as a best-case scenario.

I'm very skeptical of this.

ABlueQuaker4 votes

I'm talking past their cheesy early game here.

Sire Hippington3 votes

Well, i'm very secptical that LB gets the kill lategame...ADC close to fullbuilt can easily kill her in the 1.5sec that her passive demands, or force her to retreat.

ABlueQuaker3 votes

LeBlanc's biggest weakness, even at the height of her popularity and success, was that she was irrelevant past 25 minutes. She's not like Akali or Kat who can get Gunblade Abyssal and Rylai's and be reasonably beefy with sustain, or zed/talon with their AS/LS items.

Catastrop1 votes

And that weakness is pretty much non-existent now. Past 25 minutes, current LB actually maintains a 48-51% winrate at all time increments. Maybe I'm biased as an LB main myself, but she's definitely doing pretty great for herself. Her only issue that I've found, is that her lane phase is pretty oppressive.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

I used to play AD Bruiser Fizz with Trinity Force + another damage item, usually Titanic Hydra or BotRK + tank items.

I am actually still playing him like that now because I don't want to rely on his ult for damage, and his empowered W requires you to stay in combat for a long enough amount of time that you need tankyness to survive.

I won't say it is necessarily good, however.

xelaker5 votes

complaints that an assassin doesn't have burst, sustain, and a reliable "you are dead now" ult... now you have to land your ult at a distance, oh noes! (downvote me fizz circle jerk)

Penns5 votes

He wasnt even good before, so yes, I will complain that he lost almost all of his sustained damage and gained nothing other than a gimmicky ult thats worse than before.

Astôlfo5 votes

Except the whole point of the assassin is to get in point-blank melee range and delete someone in 0.5-0.8s.

Fizz's current playstyle is more a combo/burst mage.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

I've played the new Fizz multiple times. He has a much better laning phase with more options to farm in a bad matchup with his W. He still does well on mages he can close the gap on, and his ult grants him much more choices and flexible engage options.

Just because you can't relaibly oneshot whatever carry you sneeze at, and you don't have toxic % missing health on every auto now either, doesn't mean its trash. Playing Fizz is now rewarding when you can properly time engages and use your abilities cleverly. Fizz has probably some of the highest damage outputs out of all the assassins. I feel he's much healthier overall now.

Penns5 votes

He isnt rewarding at all now. You say "reliably oneshot whatever carry you sneeze at" and "toxic % missing hp on every auto" as if he wasnt trash in higher elos before the rework already, which he was, lol.

Before, he would probably get a kill if he hit ult, but he wasnt completely useless after using it. Now he has to burst someone with ult or, like I said, try again in a minute.

The biggest problem with that is that he gained virtually nothing to compensate. He still has a useless passive, he lost the only reliable damage he had, he basically lost his dot, he lost the 20% damage amp on ult. What did he get? A more limited W that feels bad to play with, a reset on kills that is just compensation for losing ~ the same damage on every single auto for 6 seconds, and a gimmicky ult that is worse than before in most situations.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

So you're saying before Fizz didn't need ult to kill someone at any stage of the game? He could just W-Q-E and they died?

That's a little confusing, because the rework didn't change the damage of his Q or E at all. In fact, it actually lowered the mana cost of his E.

As for his W, you would need three of his old basic attacks to match his new empowered one. Q-auto-W is a perfect burst trade in lane, and E allows him to either back off (and get some waveclear in), or press the assault.

His old R had damage amp, to be sure, but if you're saying current Fizz needs his ultimate to kill people, then you are also saying the old Fizz needed it, because that damage amp was the only way he could kill people, apparently, because his base kit is so weak.....

FIzz now brings a massive AoE displacement magic nuke to a fight. I'd say his teamfight power has increased tenfold, Before the shark could be bodyblocked really easily, but now if he hits anyone from max range, it causes a lot of chaos and deals a ton of damage.

I just think we're going to agree to disagree. I'm sorry you don't like new Fizz, but old Fizz had massive design flaws - he had %hp damage as an assassin, his damage amp was unhealthy while ahead, and he was often better as a sustained fighter than an assassin, which took him away from his initial design goals as an evasive and trick-sy assassin.

Penns5 votes

Before he could still do damage with WQ and W empowered auto attacks + the execute dot. Now his dot is non existent and he has no on hit.

Good luck Qing on an enemy, taking minion aggro, waiting for 2s and THEN using W on a good player. Good luck getting into Q range in the first place. The only way he can bypass those 2s is by using E, but then he has no way to get out so that combo has to kill or hes dead. Problem is that it doesnt kill if his enemy has an MR item as small as item 1033 .

He likely needed his ult to kill people, yeah, but he didnt need his ult to function. You could still go in, use some auto attacks and do damage. Now if you dont have ult you shouldnt even bother jumping into a fight because you aint do anything.

AoE displacement magic nuke that has a crazy hitbox so any tank just soaks it up and it ends up doing nothing in a fight. Most Fizz mains say his late game/teamfighting is way worse now.

Zed has %hp dmg, Ekko has %hp damage,... Its missing HP damage, it fits an assassin. Make it scale with missing HP like Veigar ult for all I care. Also "tank" Fizz was already dead after the nerfs in 6.12.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Yes, and Zed and Ekko have proven massive balance issues in the past.

I still don't get your complaint. You say it takes too long for Fizz to kill anyone now, but then you go and say it was better when he could Q onto someone and then auto them to death. That takes much longer than a 2 second delay, which is easily circumvented since literally everything in his kit except E applies the debuff. You also say its impossible for you to get in Q range....so how exactly did old Fizz function exactly...

You also keep saying 1 MR item makes Fizz useless. News flash, Fizz isn't the only magic damage dealer in the game. So....if you're getting counterbuilt, I'm sorry. It also screws over Katarina, LeBlanc, Ahri, Ekko, and most if not all mages. Magic resist generally reduces magic damage on the guy who has it, that's nothing new I'm afraid.

Penns3 votes

But not because of their %hp damage.

My complaint is that he could still do damage after using/missing ult before. Autoing someone to death obviously is slow, but it was something. Now, he has around 300-400 ap mid-late game, so his empowered W does 400 magic damage against someone with 50 MR at best, around 650 if you count Lich Bane and the aa damage itself. Thats not even close to good enough. Old Fizz had a hard time against mages like Syndra or Lux that didnt let him get in Q range as well but he still had more options than current Fizz.

Fizz is probably the champ that gets countered the most by MR now. I play a lot of Kat after the rework and I can still fight against someone with Hexdrinker/Maw/Abyssal or kite it out, whereas with Fizz Im just like "ok.. so what now?". Ekko still has his sustained damage and mages are ranged so they dont have to risk their life for poke/all ins.

Astôlfo3 votes

He could also just dive in and ult them point-blank in the face and kill them immediately afterwards within fractions of a second with the rest of his kit.

He can't do anything like that at all now.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

Yes, and that wasn't healthy. So Riot changed it. Anyways, I'm done, the Fizz circlejerk is too strong, they downvote me when I'm saying the truth.

Astôlfo3 votes

Nope, it wasn't unhealthy. But sure, feel free to cry more and attribute being downvoted for being incorrect and salty to a "circlejerk".

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

OK, be a jerk for no reason at all, claim instant burst was healthy, and that anything that isn't your opinion is incorrect salt.

Astôlfo3 votes

Your fault for being out of position.

If you were with your team and you still got hit by his fish anyways, you should probably not play a squishy carry anymore.

And it wasn't instant. There's the time it takes for him to even get near the area, the time it takes for him to actually dive into the enemy team, the time it takes for the fish to fire, the time it takes for the shark to actually pop up, and the time it takes for him to do the rest of the combo.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

I just cant enjoy being this limited on a once versatile champ. All you do now is go fishing for a max range ult on someone and if you dont hit? Well too bad, try again in ~a minute or more. And lets say the top laner has a Maw/is a tank, the jungler has a Maw/is a tank as well, the mid laner got an Abyssal (hell, a item 1057 is enough if you have Barrier or stuff like Lux shield) and the support has some tanky items. The only one you can kill now is the adc... but wait, the support is Janna, she has Exhaust and a Locket ? Well, gl doing anything.

The rework didnt even make him more healthy, people that complained about him before complain even more now because of his "insane burst" and people that knew how to counter assassins like him have an even easier time.

I also find it incredibly counter intuitive that a 100% melee assassin has to hit a high range skillshot before being able to "assassinate" someone. Like if an adc runs at you alone like a dumbass, you should be able to punish his positioning hard but, since he is running at you, you can get a mid range shark at best and your burst wont be enough if he invested 720 gold in MR... so you die to a few 700 dmg crits.

Why not just revert the rework, buff him a bit, and call it a day?

Fizz can 100-0 an ADC who built a guardian angel with his late game burst with only a short-range shark.

Do you want me to provide the math?

Penns2 votes

Yeah, go ahead. But note that he builds GA and 6 items = ~550 ap lol.

Also what about the Janna that ults or uses E? Or the Soraka? The Karma? The tank support with Knights Vow? Literally any support with Locket? Redemption? Any other teammate that peels like Lux shield? Or the BT shield?

The problem isnt just his damage, the problem late game is 1) Good luck hitting shark in the first place on an adc and 2) His ult has 2s delay after hitting it, thats more than enough time to react with all the stuff I listed and more.

Also he is a single target assassin. Syndra fking 100-0s an adc that built a GA with like Q and ult lol.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, go ahead. But note that he builds GA and 6 items = ~550 ap lol.

I am aware, I used his standard build when I first calculated it.

So this is using standard AP runes, masteries, and with double-edged sword rather than bounty hunter (which is IMO better, since as Fizz you're looking to snowball with kills). I will also take in mind assassin, but won't factor in merciless because I am too lazy (though it would certainly factor into increasing his damage). Oh, and I'll use sorcery, since I'm only mathing out the damage from his abilities alone, rather than from any other source like auto attacks or the passive of his W.

item 3100 item 3020 item 3157 item 3089 item 3135 item 3026

This is a generic Fizz build. With this build Fizz would have 513 AP (380 x 1.35).

His magic penetration would be 35% total magic pen, with 31.23 flat pen.

His Q does 70+35% AP, his W 85+33% AP (255+100% AP if he uses it properly), his E 270+75% AP, his short-ranged ult 350+60% AP. Lich bane does 75% base AD + 50% AP. Thunderlord's Decree does 180 + 30% bonus AD and 10% AP.

This totals out to 935+263% AP + 75% base AD + 30% bonus AD. Or 935 + 1,349.19 + 81.75 + 3. In total, 2,369 damage. After factoring in masteries giving multiplying bonuses, 2,582.21 damage.

An ADC with standard runes with a GA would have 87 magic resistance late game. Void staff brings this to 56.55, flat pen brings it to 25 MR. 20% damage reduction.

0.8 times 2,582.21 equals 2,065.8.

Unless I missed one, there is not a single ADC in the entire game with base health that high. Not even Graves (though he could probably survive it due to his build and E).

And once again, that is a Fizz burst rotation with the weakest possible ult, without utilizing your W's full damage, and without taking into account merciless at all. And has an item dedicated entirely to defense! And not counting ticks of W or the damage from his auto attacks.

Also what about the Janna that ults or uses E? Or the Soraka? The Karma? The tank support with Knights Vow? Literally any support with Locket? Redemption? Any other teammate that peels like Lux shield? Or the BT shield?

So the only thing here that was relevant at all was the BT shield.

In what fairy fucking world should you be able to casually kill the ADC despite the best efforts of their support? Why would you even play support if an assassin can casually kill your ADC without you being able to do a single fucking thing about it?

Also, is your team not dealing any damage to the ADC? Fizz has a team too.

The problem isnt just his damage, the problem late game is 1) Good luck hitting shark in the first place on an adc and 2) His ult has 2s delay after hitting it, thats more than enough time to react with all the stuff I listed and more.

Well first of all, to be perfectly blunt, if you actually land a full damage ult and proc your W properly I doubt there is a single shield in the game that can protect the ADC. And this premise relies on the assumption that the ADC did, in fact, get a GA, which many don't even in high elo, and many carries do cut into their damage by getting it. If shields are being piled over and over again on the ADC by multiple people? Then yeah you might not kill them, and why the fuck should you be able to?

Also, Fizz was always bad late game, and was always reliant on his ult.

Also he is a single target assassin. Syndra fking 100-0s an adc that built a GA with like Q and ult lol.

Syndra is also incredibly stupid and one of the most-banned and hated champions in the game. Do you want Fizz to be permaban and nerfed into obscurity like Syndra probably will be?

Penns2 votes

He wasnt bad late game, he could almost oneshot bruisers or tanks with the damage amp and still kill a 0 mr adc without ult which is almost impossible now in a teamfight.

Barely 2k damage for hitting your skillshot ult on a carry doesnt seem that good either.. He buillt GA so he is just gonna get revived and you cant do a lot after that to stop him from critting and life stealing you to death. Otherwise he couldve just gotten a Maw, can Fizz still oneshot him with that?

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