We still need a 4th keystone for Sorcery

PaffWasTaken··22 votes·10,698 views

Ever since the start, mages taking sorcery main only had choice between more (overnerfed) on hit damage, more but less accurate damage on hit or situational movement speed that a lot of mages have a lot of trouble proccing efficiently.

Sorcery has been lacking what it has been made for ("Empowered abilities and resource manipulation.") ever since Runes reforged and the tree itself only got stripped of what it had over time (Ultimate hat being replaced for a movement speed buff that a LOT of mages have no use for, Celerity and Aery getting nerfed left and right because of non-mage abusers, absolute focus and waterwalking still being useless after all this time, etc)

Precision got a 4th keystone because Bruisers needed one and didn't have any. Domination got a 4th one for, well, some obscure reason or just plain favoritism I guess, Inspiration and Resolve keystones got reworked even more often than Ryze, yet Sorcery still sits in a pile of stinky poo meant to be as secondary runes for the chads using the other trees.

You know there's a big f_cking problem when not a single mage who points its nose into the meta uses primarily a Sorcery keystone (exception for control mages like Cassiopeia and Vladimir who can ACTUALLY use phase rush and have an ACTUAL benefit from it)

Viktor top? Klepto. Lissandra ? Aftershock. Ahri ? Glacial augment/Electrocute. Morgana mid? Still glacial augment. Karthus ? Dark harvest. Taliyah ? Electrocute. Neeko ? Yet again glacial augment OR precision keystones if AD/on-hit build.

In fact, the only mages who primarily/mainly uses sorcery keystones are the ones who are FORCED to use them since they can't use any other one since they can't proc them or take advantage of them, like Malzahar who has been sitting on Aery ever since the start because he HAS to. Other mages uses keystones from different trees because those can actually enhances their strengths or patch some of their weaknesses, unlike the Sorcery one (which, by its definition, should be the go-to for most mages) who just says "okay, slightly more damage, slightly slightly more but unsteady damage, or wacky movement speed?".

Plain and simple: Sorcery as a whole just lost over time the skin that covered its protruding bones in the frail body it got forced into ever since Runes Reforged, and the problem who shines the most is its keystones, something that could've and SHOULD'VE been fixed long ago since the whole spectrum of keystones got some work done on them BUT the sorcery ones, even implementing a keystone (Hail of blades) that was unneeded, unasked-for and has only seen some use from champions who already have almost every keystones in their array of usable ones.

Sorcery needed it ever since the runes rework, it was understandable at the time that fixes needed time since bigger problems were present, but now the problems are still there and are possibly even bigger, and it almost looks like everything is done to voluntarily ignore the tree or alienate it from its purpose.

33 Comments

Chembaron Yamada6 votes

The question is: What do you want this new keystone to do exactly that isn't already present in another rune tree?

FSRER6 votes

Deathfire touch, how about that? There hasn't been a replacement for that rune and still champions like Singed don't have any good rune for their kit.

Best Ekko NA6 votes

{quoted}

Deathfire touch, how about that? There hasn't been a replacement for that rune and still champions like Singed don't have any good rune for their kit.

They purposely removed that rune because it wasn't healthy for the game (much like Courage of Colossus). DFT was way too strong on champions that could use it (Malzahar, Singed) and was just terrible on everyone else. I don't see them going the DoT route for a keystone anytime soon. lol

Princess Bunhead6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbow Slayer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ZjnJv2r,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-23T09:09:24.882+0000)

They purposely removed that rune because it wasn't healthy for the game (much like Courage of Colossus). DFT was way too strong on champions that could use it (Malzahar, Singed) and was just terrible on everyone else. I don't see them going the DoT route for a keystone anytime soon. lol

Good thing Electrocute, Conq, etc, etc are so healthy for the game then...

Sukishoo3 votes

Electrocute is no where near as bad as it's predecessor, thunderlords decree was. That one nearly everyone took all the time on anyone. I rarely see Ele taken on anyone that is not an Assassin.

Conq has issues but it's gotten better.

Bârd2 votes

Thunderlords was taken every game for the first few months because people didn't quite realize what the other options were.

Electrocute is just a powercrept version of Thunderlords. More damage, longer CD. The only difference is that some champions can't use it anymore (namely GP).

LordGeovanni1 votes

Courage of the colluss was people crying because they couldnt burst through the shield in the 1.5 second effective up time it had after CC ran out Most of Courage of the Collussus' value in the past and Aftershock's value now because they have the same activation requirement is wasted and they on stupid long cooldowns. from the class that needs constant value in a fight unlike assassins or mages. who go in specific windows.

Bârd2 votes

Courage of the Colossus was much healthier than Aftershock.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Courage of the Colossus was much healthier than Aftershock.

Indeed.

CoTC also wasn't abused by Lissandra, Lux and other "Squishy" mages.

Snowbrand3 votes

{quoted}

Deathfire touch, how about that? There hasn't been a replacement for that rune and still champions like Singed don't have any good rune for their kit.

Singed can go Dark harvest, Aery, Aftershock and sometimes Conqueror even though I prefer Dark harvest. Maybe there are other examples, but Singed have good keystones at least.

Sukishoo3 votes

Arey is one that works pretty good for Singed. I see that get used on him alot.

Nea1043 votes

{quoted}

Arey is one that works pretty good for Singed. I see that get used on him alot.

You realize it's a second-best, right? No benefit from shields, no synergy with his poison.

RavenMagus4 votes

Part of the problem is that the meta is so extremely burst-heavy right now (most mid laners will 100 to 0 the other laner with 1 item, sometimes even before then), and if you're going for damage from your keystone, Electrocute just offers so much more than the other mage keystones.

I do think the minor runes in Sorcery are all fairly strong though.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

{quoted}

Part of the problem is that the meta is so extremely burst-heavy right now (most mid laners will 100 to 0 the other laner with 1 item, sometimes even before then), and if you're going for damage from your keystone, Electrocute just offers so much more than the other mage keystones.

I do think the minor runes in Sorcery are all fairly strong though.

The issue is the design of the "Runes Reforged", seeing how you can take the highest damage keystone (Electrocute) and still use the secondary option to take the mana sustain or other options from Sorcery. This is why what you're saying is accurate. Basically, you can have the best of both worlds already, why would you need to use a Keystone in Sorcery?

Snowbrand2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbow Slayer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ZjnJv2r,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-05-23T08:59:49.615+0000)

The issue is the design of the "Runes Reforged", seeing how you can take the highest damage keystone (Electrocute) and still use the secondary option to take the mana sustain or other options from Sorcery. This is why what you're saying is accurate. Basically, you can have the best of both worlds already, why would you need to use a Keystone in Sorcery?

You could do that in the old system too though. Pick thunderlord as keystone and then choose a secondary offensive tree for mages. Not sure what the difference is supposed to be?

BLIGHTBRINGER2 votes

Here's an idea...

Don't judge me on the numbers, I just tried to think of roughly something.

###VEILFIRE

INNATE: Spells on enemies set them blazing with Veilfire dealing 2.5 - 5 [based on level] (+15% AD) (+10% AP) adaptive damage every half second for a total of 6 seconds.

Additionally Damage Over Time effects refresh this duration.

I know the damage numbers seem a bit low but they eventually scale up really well.

Thoughts would be appreciated.

Starcraft243ver2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ZjnJv2r,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-23T08:46:10.219+0000)

Here's an idea...

Don't judge me on the numbers, I just tried to think of roughly something.

###VEILFIRE

INNATE: Spells on enemies set them blazing with Veilfire dealing 2.5 - 5 [based on level] (+15% AD) (+10% AP) adaptive damage every half second for a total of 6 seconds.

Additionally Damage Over Time effects refresh this duration.

I know the damage numbers seem a bit low but they eventually scale up really well.

Thoughts would be appreciated.

Low ? 10% ap or 15% ad every .5s for 6 seconds is 120% ap scaling or 180% ad scaling total damage. Without any CD ? It's a 6 ball syndra ult without cds wrapped up in a Keystone.

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

You misunderstood it. The % AP & AD Scalling contributes to increasing the base damage of the DoT effect, the scalling itself doesn't increase over time, it's a flat scalling.

LordGeovanni1 votes

then you should add it all up and just put X damage over x seconds in this case 15-30 damage with 15% ad 10% ap over 6 seconds.

Go ahead use that for your comment

banjerlief1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ZjnJv2r,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-23T08:46:10.219+0000)

Here's an idea...

Don't judge me on the numbers, I just tried to think of roughly something.

###VEILFIRE

INNATE: Spells on enemies set them blazing with Veilfire dealing 2.5 - 5 [based on level] (+15% AD) (+10% AP) adaptive damage every half second for a total of 6 seconds.

Additionally Damage Over Time effects refresh this duration.

I know the damage numbers seem a bit low but they eventually scale up really well.

Thoughts would be appreciated.

It would have to proc after being in combat with champions for X seconds and have a CD too, this is busted lmao

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

The idea was to have something similar to Deathfire Touch. I legit miss that Keystone so much, if it existed I could use my favourite build on Malzahar... (5 DoT's - Damage over Time)

Malzahar summoner 14 item 3151 item 2033 + Malzahar E + Scorch

if Deathfire Touch or something equal to it existed, it would be a nice contribution to this build of mine.

LordGeovanni1 votes

maybe of those dots didnt do busted damage per tick it wouldnt have had to go away

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ZjnJv2r,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-23T08:46:10.219+0000)

Here's an idea...

Don't judge me on the numbers, I just tried to think of roughly something.

###VEILFIRE

INNATE: Spells on enemies set them blazing with Veilfire dealing 2.5 - 5 [based on level] (+15% AD) (+10% AP) adaptive damage every half second for a total of 6 seconds.

Additionally Damage Over Time effects refresh this duration.

I know the damage numbers seem a bit low but they eventually scale up really well.

Thoughts would be appreciated.

Basically Liandrys burn damage that doesn't scale with %health.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I dont mind this Technically mind this but champions with out of combat Components like Tahm kench would need massive buffs not that he doesnt already need massive buffs.

GodlyBane2 votes

Buffing riots new favourite class? Mages? Yea ok im so excited to be one shot 2 screens away in different ways now! Woohoo!

LordGeovanni2 votes

he didnt lie although i think their favorite class is adc

Ahri Baka2 votes

Agreed give us TLD back I don't wanna be either forced to take Electrocute or Glacial for Ahri

Daddy Ants1 votes

What about something like this

Void Zone

Hitting an enemy champion with a basic attack or an ability grants a stack of Void Zone stacking up to 3 times.

Once 3 stacks is reached your next basic attack or ability that hits an enemy champion within 3 seconds will spawn a Void Zone under the enemy champion dealing 35 - 105 (based on level) (+ 0.15 AP) (+0.25 BONUS AD) Adaptive damage after a 0.6 second delay.

Any other champions inside the Void Zone that were not the target of the attack will take 35% of the original damage.

Cooldown 20 - 10 seconds (based on level)

Couple of notes here

  • More base damage but a little less on the ratio than Arcane Comet.

  • 0.6 second delay is in place to keep counterplay available to the keystone in the form of giving enemies time to get out of it.

  • The stacks will fall off at the rate of 1 per 0.75 seconds if the player fails to actively maintain the stacks.

  • The stacks are obtained at 1 per ability hitting an enemy champion. Abilities that do multiple instances of damage like Malzahar R, Morgana W, Anivia R or Liandrys will not grant multiple stacks.

  • Hitting multiple champions with a single ability will not grant multiple stacks, similar to Electrocute.

  • Pets such as Tibbers, Daisy and Malzahar voidlings will grant the user stacks and activate the keystone (as they would for things like Electrocute)

  • The Keystone can only deal 1 instance of damage per person who's still inside after the delay. If 3 people are inside then the person who was attacked and spawned it will take full damage and the other 2 will take 35% of that amount.

LordGeovanni1 votes

this is decent in concept the numbers are just horrible.

First. 3 stacks. No! 5 stacks Second who is gonna react to 0.6 seconds unless that pulse is literally as small as the model for ZZrots portal and nothing less than a 2.5 second delay Third 35 second - 17 second cooldown based on level I know you are trying to make it similar to arcane comet but Arcane Comet isnt the only keystone with a cooldown and frankly comet needs a nerfed cooldown.

Note im not gonna mandate this one but bonus ad cordons it off from Fighters hard as much as people were fighting for adaptive stats from Conquerer this is pretty 2 faced.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

this is decent in concept the numbers are just horrible.

First. 3 stacks. No! 5 stacks Second who is gonna react to 0.6 seconds unless that pulse is literally as small as the model for ZZrots portal and nothing less than a 2.5 second delay Third 35 second - 17 second cooldown based on level I know you are trying to make it similar to arcane comet but Arcane Comet isnt the only keystone with a cooldown and frankly comet needs a nerfed cooldown.

Note im not gonna mandate this one but bonus ad cordons it off from Fighters hard as much as people were fighting for adaptive stats from Conquerer this is pretty 2 faced.

Bonus AD doesn't really cordon it off from fighters.

Most fighters (Camille Fiora Irelia Jax Jayce Kayn Pantheon Tryndamere etc) do build a lot of AD items.

As Bonus AD means "AD obtained from Runes, stat shards or items/elixirs purchased" that means the keystone will scale with their items.

Total AD scaling would most likely break the rune.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Most fighters get ad items with shit amounts of ad item 3053 item 3071 item 3078item 3748

most of these are trinity force steraks Gage fighters Jayce is a fighter like Quinn is a fighter or Teemo is a fighter.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Supports need an actual Sorcery keystone not Puny Shield Aery

None of those mages go those Keystones because Sorcery is bad but because Mage items (and kits) are both overloaded and over stats. the same mages that can take 70% of your hp as a tank in 1.5 seconds (unless you go some unrealistic 4 magic resist item build not counting boots) also have better slows roots and stuns.

Dingding1231 votes

People don't take Sorcery Keystones for the Keystones anyway; they take them for the runes. There are a lot of good standalone runes in Sorcery and the same goes for the other trees that don't have 4 Keystones. I think that's the point - for the trees picked for their keystones champions are given a bigger variety to pick from so that they can pick one that matters.

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