Riot can you remind us of what a marksman should do and their general strong and weak points

Irelia Bot·Mar 22, 2016·60 votes·16,531 views

And tell us if they are meeting the supposed concepts of their role in general.

I have always heard they are a class with a weak early game and fairly dependent on items over levels for their overall power. Generally bad at dueling against fighters but in a team fight able to put out consistently high DPS that counters tank builds better the others making them something to protect. They are good for sieging but prone to getting assassinated.

Is my overall description correct for the general pros and cons of marksmen?

Are these pros and cons being properly maintained given the high amount of marksmen being played? This is relevant to the 2 or 3 appearing often on teams. This does also include their items.

I am not saying all marksmen will have the same exact pros and cons to the same level, that is what allows for champs within their class to differ from one another but as a whole it seems like they are overwhelming other classes which would tend to suggest some kind of imbalance for the class in general.

178 Comments

RiotMeddlerMar 22, 201633 votes

Good question. Copy/paste from a draft of an upcoming devblog on different classes/subclasses below. Note that this is work in progress, so it's a bit rough still. Also worth noting that every champion will break the rules of their class in at least one way. With marksmen there's a moderate sized group for example that give up tactical mobility in exchange for other non standard strengths (CC for Ashe, Wombo Combo potential for MF, poke for Varus etc). Additionally strengths/weaknesses are described relative to other similar classes, slow marksmen have limited burst relative to other damage dealers for example, not limited burst relative to protective supports or defensive tanks.

"Marksman

Strengths or unique properties

Reliable ranged sustained damage (most stable among Carries)
Primary objective destroyers (turrets)
Tactical mobility (reposition / kiting)
Late game carry curve (multiplicative)

Weaknesses

Extremely squishy
Limited burst damage
Limited on-demand offensive (AoE?) CC
Highly basic attack dependent (constantly skirt the edge of danger to deal damage)

Cornerstone champions

Vayne Caitlyn

Other champions

Ashe Corki Draven Ezreal Graves (hybrid Slayer?) Jhin Jinx Kalista Kindred Kog’Maw (non AP Kog) Lucian Miss Fortune Quinn Sivir Tristana Twitch Varus (hybrid Artillery?) Vayne"

GigglesOMar 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Good question. Copy/paste from a draft of an upcoming devblog on different classes/subclasses below. Note that this is work in progress, so it's a bit rough still. Also worth noting that every champion will break the rules of their class in at least one way. With marksmen there's a moderate sized group for example that give up tactical mobility in exchange for other non standard strengths (CC for Ashe, Wombo Combo potential for MF, poke for Varus etc). Additionally strengths/weaknesses are described relative to other similar classes, slow marksmen have limited burst relative to other damage dealers for example, not limited burst relative to protective supports or defensive tanks.

"Marksman

Strengths or unique properties

Reliable ranged sustained damage (most stable among Carries)

Primary objective destroyers (turrets)

Tactical mobility (reposition / kiting)

Late game carry curve (multiplicative)

Weaknesses

Extremely squishy

Limited burst damage

Limited on-demand offensive (AoE?) CC

Highly basic attack dependent (constantly skirt the edge of danger to deal damage)

Cornerstone champions

Vayne Caitlyn

Other champions

Ashe Corki Draven Ezreal Graves (hybrid Slayer?) Jhin Jinx Kalista Kindred Kog’Maw (non AP Kog) Lucian Miss Fortune Quinn Sivir Tristana Twitch Varus (hybrid Artillery?) Vayne"

Where is Morde! "We put him in botlane to act as a Marksman." I guess your are finally abandoning him :(.

RiotMeddlerMar 22, 201623 votes

Morde's rework was designed to see if we could make him a farming duo laner, not a marksman. Almost all farming duo laners are marksman at present in level 30 games, we'd like to find ways to make that not as universal though and Morde was an attempt to broaden that space.

IcyPepperMar 22, 20163 votes

we'd like to find ways to make that not as universal though

Is there anything you're allowed to share, like tentative ideas? If you can't, that's fine... ;~;

Some things the community has mentioned are things like reworking item 1054 lightly, or anti-ranged items that make melee champions viable laning against without making them overbearing (which seems hard to do, if thornmail was any indication). Is there anything in the works, or any infant ideas quite yet?

LankPantsMar 22, 20163 votes

I think if that space is going to be broadened it would be by someone like Azir. I really think a bot laner needs some form of sustained damage, damage VS towers and most importantly range just due to the nature of the lane.

RiotMeddlerMar 22, 201626 votes

We did try Azir as a bot laner for a while during development, we weren't successful in pulling it off though. We've tried the same thing with a couple of other mages, sustained damage dealers like Cass in particular. Conclusion we came to was that we'll need to make a number of broader changes to things like items, mage ability to take objectives etc before we can get those characters into botlane in a healthy and functional way (Morde being an example of what happens if you try to accomplish it solely on the kit, ends up feeling too forced).

TotalwanabeMar 22, 20162 votes

cass is quite strong in bot lane, very good aoe damage, a slow that reveal, ult that can stun or slow and a very low cd q that almost feel like a basic attack. She's healthy it's just people don't know how to play her or with her. And people that think you have to build support to be one are just brain dead, Example you won't see a quinn top build a full ar/mr with 0 damage items. Might has well play a super minion.

SaixosMar 22, 20163 votes

Slayer seems like an odd name for a class, with artillery and marksman or juggernaut many of the traits are immediately apparent, Slayer seems confusing. Class: "Killer".

RiotMeddlerMar 22, 201619 votes

Yeah, that's a class we're having some trouble finding a clear, good name for, Slayer's not necessarily final (as above, this is a draft). It refers to the group we've previously talked about as light fighters (Yasuo, Yi, Trynd etc) with whom Graves shares some characteristics.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 22, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that's a class we're having some trouble finding a clear, good name for, Slayer's not necessarily final (as above, this is a draft). It refers to the group we've previously talked about as light fighters (Yasuo, Yi, Trynd etc) with whom Graves shares some characteristics.

How about skirmisher? It doesn't exactly describe the pattern of every light fighter but it describes some very well, like Fiora.

More importantly a skirmish immediately conveys the idea of a 'light fight' or a smaller scale tactical fight that you think of when you think of squishier fighters compared to juggernauts and tanks that wade deep into battle

Or just call them fighters? Not a fan of slayer tbh

RiotMeddlerMar 22, 201618 votes

Skirmisher's another we've been throwing around. It's not quite right either, better fitting more pokey/harass based champs like Teemo or Nidalee than this class of champ that when they go in tend to go in really hard. Can see the argument for it though.

SolideusMar 22, 20163 votes

How about naming light fighters "Incursors"? :)

Teridax68Mar 22, 20164 votes

What about Strider? In a lot of fictional lore it's used to describe fighters who head to battle with minimal protection, using their legendary skill at their weapon of choice to defeat scores of enemies at a time, usually with some sort of deadly grace and a flow from kill to kill, which describes light fighters pretty well, and it also suggests continuous mobility and movement through multiple enemies, which also applies fairly well considering light fighters tend to be really mobile, while also having relatively short gapclosers that require them to wade through or around the front line. The term's used for marksman champion mastery, iirc, but it might still be more appropriate here.

Also, what do you think of the state of counterplay between marksmen and other champions? As you mentioned, marksmen have the most stable ranged DPS: is that stability in a place you're comfortable with (should it be more stable, less stable)? How does that affect the way you design around interacting with the enemy marksman? Do you think marksmen should "compensate" for that stability with less reliability in other aspects, or unique or more prominent weaknesses? Do they have those already?

SuperLuigiLXIVMar 22, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Skirmisher's another we've been throwing around. It's not quite right either, better fitting more pokey/harass based champs like Teemo or Nidalee than this class of champ that when they go in tend to go in really hard. Can see the argument for it though.

So you're not going to call them duelists? Generally they're very good at that. I'd say call them berserkers, but most of them can also turn tail and run if it turns out not to be a good idea...

Actually, why not call them Raiders? that's kind of what they do: blitz in, secure an objective, and get back out before they can be caught.

Unstoppable MonkMar 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that's a class we're having some trouble finding a clear, good name for, Slayer's not necessarily final (as above, this is a draft). It refers to the group we've previously talked about as light fighters (Yasuo, Yi, Trynd etc) with whom Graves shares some characteristics.

That's not actually trouble at all.

You call them Buster for how busted they are.

Send my 1 RP in the mail.

haywire androidMar 22, 20164 votes

Vanguard might fit the bill. Champions like Yi, Yasou and Riven regularly initiate fights (with cc, or in Yi' case pure ability to chase down an out positioned enemy).

Going deep into the enemy territory is kind of what these champs do to deal their damage (and because they have the mobility to do so), while still not being overly tanky, maintaining a skirmish/scout like status.

RiotMeddlerMar 22, 20168 votes

Vanguard's a great term, it's actually one we're using for one of the two tank subclasses already though (aggressive initiating tanks like Malphite).

Jesus is SaviorMar 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Vanguard's a great term, it's actually one we're using for one of the two tank subclasses already though (aggressive initiating tanks like Malphite).

Are you guys planning to do anything about the fact that I have to queue jungle/mid even though my 2nd best role is support, since queuing as support secondary means I get support 99% of the time? I haven't played support in 2 months because of the shitty new system.

I made a thread that got over 4k views, but no red response.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/y4ZdTkqb-i-like-how-riot-has-effectively-killed-the-support-role-and-still-hasnt-even-addressed-the-issue

Is there a reason primary roles can't be guaranteed for 1 or 2 games before it fills based on demand for the next game?

DELI MEATSMar 22, 20162 votes

You could queue jungle/mid one game, then jungle/support the next.

Jesus is SaviorMar 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You could queue jungle/mid one game, then jungle/support the next.

Queuing as jungle/support automatically picks support. ie: a 0% chance of actually jungling.

Why would I intentionally pick a worse role in a ranked game?

DELI MEATSMar 22, 20163 votes

You said your second best role is support, but you queue as mid. Why would you intentionally pick a worse role in a ranked game?

I understand that right now queuing as support guarantees it. I think it's pretty simple to just alternate what roles you pick.

Jesus is SaviorMar 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You said your second best role is support, but you queue as mid. Why would you intentionally pick a worse role in a ranked game?

I understand that right now queuing as support guarantees it. I think it's pretty simple to just alternate what roles you pick.

Lets do some math and just throw some random numbers at it. Lets say jungle has a 55% winrate, mid has a 45% winrate, and support has a 48% winrate. Lets also say jungle/mid puts me mid 50% of the time.

20 games as jungle/mid exclusively: jungle x 10 at 55% plus mid x 10 at 45% = 50% winrate overall

Now lets alternate and do jungle/support every other game: Games as support at 48% = 10 Games as jungle at 55% = 5 Games as mid at 45% = 5

((5*45)+(5*55)+(10*48))/20 = 49% winrate overall

That's too many support games though, so let's do jungle/support every third game, and lets play 21 games this time just so the numbers work out:

7 games in each role = ((48*7)+(55*7)+(45*7))/21 = 49.3% winrate overall

So even if I'm really shit at mid, my winrate is still going to be stronger by going jungle/mid. I would have to break a 50% winrate on support for it to be better for me to go jungle/support, but the problem with that is 3 things:

If I did that, I'd basically have to become a support main in order to maintain a high winrate/ELO, because at that point playing jungle/mid would hurt my ELO even though jungle is my best role.
It would be easier for me to break 50% on mid by just going jungle/mid and getting better at mid.
Support is boring as fuck and I don't want to main it.

Also, lets do that same test again, but lets pretend dynamic queue worked properly and gave me support 50% of the time when I queued as jungle/support:

(55+48)/2 = 51.5% winrate overall.

Do you see the problem now? If I could actually put my 2nd best role as secondary and not get it 100% of the time, my winrate would go up. But if the system is intent on giving it to me 100% of the time when I pick it, I can't pick it at all without hurting my winrate.

DELI MEATSMar 22, 20164 votes

My point wasn't to literally play support every other game. I'm saying that it is possible to play it only part of the time.

And using made up win rates doesn't move the conversation foreword.

HellioningMar 22, 20169 votes

So, if, for example, a marksman is more bursty than usual, they should pay for it by being more squishy than usual, or something like that?

RiotMeddlerMar 22, 201625 votes

That sort of thing yeah.

what you deserveMar 22, 201688 votes

So Graves is what

EnderForHegemonMar 22, 201612 votes

A carry with horrible dps to the enemy frontline compared to a standard adc

YumaS2AstralMar 22, 20169 votes

{quoted}

A carry with horrible dps to the enemy frontline compared to a standard adc

And short range.

AnnoxisMar 22, 20162 votes

But who can compensate his lack of DPS with high burst.

EnderForHegemonMar 22, 20162 votes

Sure. Every champ has tradeoffs

doombotMECHAMar 22, 20168 votes

honestly graves is hardly an adc at all he's really more of an offensive ranged bruiser.

EvewynnMar 22, 201638 votes

" Also worth noting that every champion will break the rules of their class in at least one way"

Every way.

LankPantsMar 22, 20165 votes

An abomination.

RiotMeddlerMar 22, 201635 votes

Probably as much a fighter as a marksman. At present that also means he takes advantage of whichever marksman or fighter items are strong, leading to things like the Maw/Sterak's etc builds that are too hard to deal with on him.

alfavhunterMar 22, 201613 votes

{quoted}

Probably as much a fighter as a marksman. At present that also means he takes advantage of whichever marksman or fighter items are strong, leading to things like the Maw/Sterak's etc builds that are too hard to deal with on him.

Have you considered giving graves resistance / reload mechanic a similar effect to mana as kassadins ult?

This means if he wants to be really tanky with constant dashes he spend more mana per dash and will run himself OOM if he is not careful about his mana

This limits his resistance through mana usage and limits his ability to use damage spells by giving that mana factor and in turn can result in OOM if he keeps dashing, making him weaker in extended fights

Example lower the dash base mana cost by 10, but consecutive dashes cost 20 more mana each per stack of his resistance buff, at 4 stacks that's 80 extra mana cost on the dash that gives the resistance buff and reload

Yuzuki YukarinMar 22, 20165 votes

As far as I see Graves in his current state, he's a bruiser that has the restriction of being a melee* champ that's locked out of using Hydra weapons. Attack speed items are garbage on him cause of his passive, so while he can theoretically benefit from a wide variety of items, he doesn't get the full benefit from either cast.

While as a character Graves does make sense as a bruiser, this niche would've been better suited to Quinn. She was already commonly played as such prior and she even swapped out for Valor, a melee champ which benefited greatly from melee items like Hydra and were even built on her because of this. Rather than embracing her identity, you chose to destroy it, removed Valor's significance and forced her into a design and playstyle that's even less healthy and logical than where she was already at. Pretty much anybody that sees a bird carrying around a human and somehow miraculously gaining MS, rather than losing it like the laws of physics would imply, will tell you how visually and thematically ridiculous the abomination is.

As for Graves' ammo system, while it's mechanically sound, visually and thematically it doesn't make sense. Graves has a custom shotgun that just at a quick glance you can see has probably around 8 or 10 chambers to load cartridge shells. So why then is it that he can only fire twice or thrice with E and then is forced to reload? He's a shrewd man, he's not dumb enough to be walking around with only two shells in the chamber when it can hold several times as many. Is it then that he suffers from a severe psychotic form of OCD? He can't perform if his gun isn't fully loaded and his psychosis takes over if more than 1 ammo is expended?

What then of other characters with ammo-oriented weapons, will we be seeing them being eventually forced into the same ammo system already implemented with Graves and Jhin? Will Trist reload after every shot? Cait? Jinx? Quinn and Vayne? What of MF? Will her pistols randomly jam like they did during the Hallowing and she pulls out a sword to become a melee champ? How about Sivir? Will she have to wait for her blade to return after every single time after throwing it? Or Draven? Many of us remember when he lost both axes during 'A New Dawn.' Back when you discussed Kalista's design, you were overly concerned with a self-sustaining ammo system, yet very few characters actually care about this misguided sense of logic.

AstôlfoMar 22, 20162 votes

Yeah no, tanky/bruiser ranged should not exist, nor should it have ever existed.

MLDzXnRRRMar 22, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Yeah no, tanky/bruiser ranged should not exist, nor should it have ever existed.

Urgot

MysticDreams12Mar 22, 20163 votes

Graves should never even been considered as a "fighter" or made into one. He's an ADC pure and simple.

DengedenMar 22, 20168 votes

Full of unreliable skill shots and short range autos. Basically a bruiser.

DesideriumMar 22, 201623 votes

And what if a marksman is more Busty than usual instead? MissFortune

ProfDrDeathMar 22, 201630 votes

It gets compensated in other places...err, champions. Jinx

XonraMar 22, 20163 votes

golf claps

MilfHuntUnitM1TMar 22, 20161 votes

What's your opinion on solo lane Quinn using this set of rules for marksmen?

Biff ManlyMar 22, 201612 votes

I think of Quinn as more of an assassin-marksman. She's designed to get somewhere quickly and brutally murder a single target who's out on their own.

And so, he same frustrations of playing against assassins just add onto the frustrations of playing against an ADC.

ABlueQuakerMar 22, 20163 votes

Riot generally likes to make Burst-ier AD Carries riskier by giving them shorter range (e.g. Graves, Lucian).

If Corki had more linear scaling he'd probably have 500 Range too but that's generally not the case seeing as he'd require you to invest in both Armor and Magic Pen so that one half of his damage or the other wouldn't fall off.

LankPantsMar 22, 20167 votes

If Corki had more linear scaling he'd probably have 500 Range too but that's generally not the case seeing as he'd require you to invest in both Armor and Magic Pen so that one half of his damage or the other wouldn't fall off.

It works the other way round. Corki's enemies have to invest in both armour and magic resist to mitigate his damage. Corki's mixed damage allows him to wait longer before building his pen item (usually Void Staff) than other champs since it's harder to be tanky VS him.

Corki is incredibly overpowered right now because he is really lacking in weaknesses. He's a bursty, poke heavy, mobile ADC with fairly good DPS who's impossible to itemise against. Something about Corki really has to give.

FalconPawwwwnchMar 22, 20169 votes

I have to ask why you didn't include weak early game anywhere

If they're going to be the hardest scaling class they shouldn't be able to bully champions in lane who have worse late games than them (Quinn, Graves, etc)

L0ve Is BlueMar 22, 201615 votes

Weaknesses

Limited burst damage

Lucian Ezreal Corki Graves MissFortune

Limited on-demand offensive (AoE?) CC

Kalista Corki

Extremely squishy

Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves Graves

OneSmoothDudeMar 22, 20165 votes

Also worth noting that every champion will break the rules of their class in at least one way. With marksmen there's a moderate sized group for example that give up tactical mobility in exchange for other non standard strengths (CC for Ashe, Wombo Combo potential for MF, poke for Varus etc).

-Meddler